NY136: The Death of ReaperCharlie (GAME OVER, Town win!)

[Ythan]

This is Thor, I won't ever really sign my posts -

just look for the awesome ones and those will be me.

Implies that there are effectively two people playing an independent game in a single slot. This means dissonance cannot be used as a scumtell against you, which is bad for the town because dissonance is an extremely good way of finding scum.

In other words, you are giving yourself free reign to backpeadal reads and votes at will by saying phrases like, "After talking it over with my partner" or "my other head was wrong about that vote - this is what we actually think."

There is no reason to expect two heads of a hydra to be of one mind.

[kondi2424]

Uh.

Right.

Imma just follow my neighbor on this one. VOTE: Meransiel

Hey, at least I'm not bullshitting you and copy/pasting the other reasons to vote for him.

[Iecerint]

A boy is coming over, so I need to stop. I made it through page 3 or 4. Here's what I wrote:

CATCH-UP NOTES

Here are notes for me:

Yos does not wagon or anti-wagon or anything.

Parama is probably town.

OMG MBL IS HERE WAT O_O <3

Hydra is likely town, provided a response to DH.

SF follows what I assume is a joke...this move...makes no sense...unless it is also a joke?

I had assumed that AGM was joking before, but he is apparently serious about it.

Did post-PM receipt, pre-game chat happen somewhere? I did not participate/have not read.

I don't agree with the implicit suggestion that dissonance is irrelevant in hydras.

This Hydra pressure does not make sense to me. Dislike Ythan's vote. He's basically voting him for a dispute about ideal hydra play (OR he thinks that scum's secret strategy is to publicize their subideal hydra play strategy and something has been different from normative hydra play so far, etc).

Meransiel was scum in Kdub's SE:Outsiders game, right? Then he's town this game. Otherwise, null.

Meransiel's unvote for what I'd assumed was an RVS vote with minimal pressure from Ythan is weird.

Hrezs's entry looks scummy. I don't know this player. More likely scum if he doesn't play often. Looks like an attempt to join the dominant discussion without any evaluation of whether it will find scum. Posting to post.

Meransiel's WIFOM argument is legit. <3 Meransiel continues.

Agree with SW's entry post 100%. But I wish she'd take it a step further...

MoI's entry post is...OK. I agree that SF has made some lame posts, and the "12 violations" post was confusing as it was posted, but he clarified it later. Shouldn't have needed clarification if he'd done things properly BUT.

Not sure why Kondi thinks that lynching masons is ftw... O.o MoI echoes.

Basically, I'm liking Meransiel, and I disliked all the weird hydra pressure. Scummiest post goes to Hrasz, but he's only posted once so far.

[Meransiel]

I was town in SE: Outsiders.

@ the alleged rolefishing: I like the way you guys fail to think game-specific and hit it with broad, universal logic that may or may not apply in this particular game. But I already disclosed my reasons for my request, and I'd like others to also weigh in on that, objectively, without bsing theis way on my wagon.

[Hydra]

They were talking about lynching me before I posted in the QT.

Me: Oh, hai Parama.
Parama: kondi. Ew. Otherwise, best neighborhood. We should lynch him to improve the quality of the neighbor team.
Me: Sure. What do you say, kondi?
kondi: (his post)

RVS pressuring was happening before the game even started.

That changes the flow most certainly. Hmmm.

Unvote: kondi
Vote: Meransal

@Meran - clearly I'm just still being dumb, could you point me to the part of the thread where DH/Parama/kondi explained the above already? You were calling it a townslip, but without knowledge of the flow of the conversation in the QT I'm not sure I understand how you got there. What did I miss? You explained the townslip by basically explaining really bad mason play - could you explicitly explain the 'townslip'?

In other news, AGM remains scummier than Sens Fan - other people don't seem to notice.

[Hydra]

@ the alleged rolefishing: I like the way you guys fail to think game-specific and hit it with broad, universal logic that may or may not apply in this particular game. But I already disclosed my reasons for my request, and I'd like others to also weigh in on that, objectively, without bsing theis way on my wagon.

I consider the rolefishing pretty obvious that it happened, you openly claimed you wanted to know if they were PRs.
I find it so blatant I'm not sure I see brilliant scum motivation there, it's also so blatant it's clear that regardless of your alignment *you* don't think it's scummy - therefore it's not a stand alone scumtell.

[Meransiel]

Lol, thinking pointing at a townslip is a scumslip...and they say I wifom. No, I found the slip in the posts in-thread, from kondi's behavior, because I'm not a telepath.

PEDIT: How can you say that it's not a standalone reason to vote me and be ok with people voting me for that alone? Selective much.

Also, I didn't want you to comment on how town or scum the proposition makes me, but on the proposition itself! As much as I know you hate hearing this, I thought you were a better player, Thor.

[saporovirus]

OHAI GUYS!

AHEM-Mr. Buddy Lee: Asking people to clarify what they mean isn't the same as scum-hunting >_>

Meransiel's fishing is odd.

Taun, imo: kondi, Parama (I really really want this to be true <3), Almaster

My brain doesn't work too well right now guys. I WILL SEE YOU TOMORROW!

[Meransiel]

*

3. I feel really stupid. I was under the impression that we were alignment confirmed. Haven't played any games in groups besides scum groups.

Is it that much of a stretch to regard this a townslip.

@sapo: would be good idea to explain things when you say them. meh

[Meransiel]

Oh, by the way, FWIW, I like MBL's posts. The only problem with them is that they're kinda few.

[saporovirus]

1. Kondi is town because he made a silly mistake.

2. I want Parama to be town because.

3. I went back and iso'ed Almaster, and he is not such a town read after all. He started the Hydra nonsense.

I do not like MBL's posts. But that is irrelevant at this point.

[petroleumjelly]

Vote: Meransiel

.

1.

Ythan, please rephrase this sentence to be comprehensible, in particular the underlined portion:

I haven't voted yet because I skimmed through rvs up until I reached the immediate topic of conversation

at the time that I received my PM.

2.)

I don’t like Meransiel. In particular, I very much dislike this post:

Well...quite frankly, I didn't understand what you said at all, Parama. I need to think better.

MoI defending 3 people?

I don't know what to make of it

, been in a single game with him where he was town and very aggressive. Meh, side note here.

By the way,

what are the chances of a pure town 3 man neighborhood?

This post has “trying to subtly plant ideas in people’s heads” all over it; first about MagnaofIllusion, and second about the claimed Neighborhood. This is one of my favorite tactics to use as scum, and this looks like a fairly textbook example of it.

I'm also not a fan of his asking the claimed Neighbors if they have additional powers.

3.)

I don’t like how Parama got defensive about whether he thought there could a be a scum in his Neighborhood after announcing that kondo2424 was Town.

If you were apparently willing to lynch kondi2424 before he even posted in the Neighbor QT – supposedly on the assumption that there might be a scum in the Neighborhood – then it is reasonable to wonder if you would still consider lynching the third member if you strongly thought the second to be Town.

4.)

Also, I have to ask – and this goes to both DemonHybrid and Parama: if you could apparently

daytalk

with kondi2424, why didn’t you ask him to clarify what he meant in the Neighborhood QT before attacking him and outing the Neighborhood? If his post was so “incredibly vague,” it sounds like you should have bothered to ask him questions before making an irreversible claim for all three of you.

[Ythan]

Got PM with game link. Skimmed through game. Got to what was going on. Participated.

[Meransiel]

Petro, why do you think my style is similar to yours?

[Yosarian2]

D'oh, forgot about this game all day yesterday.

Some quick comments on all the stuff I missed:

The Hydra debate was pretty null on all sides.

However, Shanba's defense of Hydra looks pretty town (unless Hydra flips scum, of course.) Dropping my random vote now:

unvote:shanba

kondi2424 is probably town. The whole "Let's lynch me to confirm the whole group" thing sounds like newbie town.

It's possible the whole neighborhood is town. Neither of them seem especially scummy to me.

[Shanba]

Meransiel: I'm fairly sure I addressed the specific reasons you gave for your rolefishing in this particular game in the post where I voted you. For reference:

I'm actually somewhat in agreement with kondi that meransiel is rolefishing. Considering the mistake kondi already made, it's not beyond possible that meransiel was looking for kondi to make another mistake. There's very little town reason, too, for the question meransiel asked.

If 1 or 2 of you are PR, you clearly can't be all town, so there's that. Plus, the scum will be forced to kill one of you, ridding us of a potential mislynch anyway. If you all claim vt then nothing really changes, amirite?

is definitively bullshit. 1 or 2 being power roles would not condemn the others to scumness, and telling the scum who out power roles are so they can kill them - not smart. Mafia 101.

Unvote Vote: meransiel

I have weighed your reasons objectively and they are bad.

To weigh in on MBL: I am ambivalent about his posts this far. I've not played with him much but this style is what I would expect if he was town. But also what I would expect if he was scum. I'd rather just let him work, for now, and check the results of his digging later.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Meransiel wagon to date that germinated solely based on the role-fishing accusation

– Shanba, DH, Kondi, Hydra, Petro

If Meran is Town then at least 1 scum jumped on this easy wagon. Role-fishing is one of the easiest accusations to make that seems like a good scum-tell but rarely is.

@Kondi

– why didn’t you vote for Meran when you first called out rolefishing if you think it is scummy?

@DH

– where has Meran been scummy other than the rolefishing (referencing your post at 148)?

@Hydra

– if you don’t see the brilliant scum motivation for Meran’s role-fishing why did you vote for him (other than him being a great competing wagon)?

On other topics ...

@PBug

– So in your first post you drop 2 FOSes but no vote. Why is that?

@Sapo

– When you return a great thing to add to your contribution would be who you actually think is scum! So far you lobbed a half-hearted sorta accusation at Mr.BL and called three people Town.

@Yos

– Great, who is scum?

--

The townslip.

If this is Thor I’m fairly assured that you know I don’t but any weight at all in Town slips / tells. On its face the statement was reasonable for a newer MS member. I also went and looked at all Kondi’s on site games (ongoing and completed) to see if he had played with Neighbors or Masons before. I see zero evidence that he has so the statement remains credible to me.

You're voting Sens, right?

Yup. He’s my number 1 scum read. Was your point that if I believe the Neighborhood to have scum in it I must be lynching from there? If so then I disagree. I’m going to vote for my top scum read. If either DH, Parama, or Kondi becomes a solid scum read I certainly will not hesitate to push their lynch.

In other news, AGM remains scummier than Sens Fan - other people don't seem to notice.

Please elaborate on why you believe this. Because looking at Sensfan’s ISO I see the following –

Hopping on Kondi wagon with no thought involved (assuming it was a policy lynch)
Pushing scumtastically stupid reasoning to vote Hydra.
Defense of said stupid reasoning in scummy manner.

I don’t see any semblance of scum-hunting. I also don’t see much in the way of opinions (other than that he himself isn’t scummy).

--

2. I want Parama to be town because.

3. I went back and iso'ed Almaster, and he is not such a town read after all. He started the Hydra nonsense.

2. Wanting Parama to be Town isn’t a really good reason to label him as such with no other support.
3. Why did you call him Town to begin with? You must have read the same posts that you read when you ISOed him.

--

Kondi never expressed the fact that he thought we were alignment confirmed UNTIL his first post in the thread on page 4. His first and only post at the time until page 4 in the QT was "Best neighbors ever! Oh, and don't lynch me till later, I want to be able to confirm you guys in the future when it's critical".

He never stated whether he wanted to confirm us as neighbors or as town. Both of us thought he wanted to confirm us as neighbors.

I’m quoting this again because I think it still deserves attention. I’ve bolded the part that I think bears the most scrutiny.

DH

– What other possible motivation would he have to offer himself as lynchbait to confirm you as Neighbors other than the fact that he thought it was meaningful to the game (aka it confirmed your alignment)?

The more I mull over your “Hey, I made that mistake myself” statement in context of how this came together the more I have real concerns that you aren’t approaching this from a truthful standpoint.

And? I don't go around assuming people are dumb.

And yes. I WAS dumb in my first game on site. I thought Neighbor was a fancy term for Mason for some stupid reason.

Who has said Kondi was being dumb? Your personal experience seems to indicate it was a reasonable mistake from someone fairly new to the site to make. No-ones accused you of being a VI.

I'm still kind of iffy on Hydra. I'm doing an ISO of both after I eat.

If you’ve been ‘iffy’ on Hydra as scum (which the use of the word still implies) why didn’t you ISO him before hopping on his wagon?

--

This looks suspiciously like lining up lynches. What happens in the case of a 3-town neighborhood? "Oops, I guess there weren't any scum in that neighborhood, I dun goofed guize!"

Thanks for tripping one of my personal scum-tells!

Then again, MoI's catch is pretty good...

I'm actually not seeing the problem here. at all.

I’d like you to point me to what happened between 116 and 125 that changed the catch from being ‘pretty good’ to ‘you not seeing a problem’. Because all the facts you claim make DH believable happened before 116.

[Yosarian2]

Meransiel wagon to date that germinated solely based on the role-fishing accusation

– Shanba, DH, Kondi, Hydra, Petro

If Meran is Town then at least 1 scum jumped on this easy wagon. Role-fishing is one of the easiest accusations to make that seems like a good scum-tell but rarely is.

Why is that?

Scum have to rolefish. Especially in a large game, the scum need to find the town power roles before the town power find them. It's one of the biggest differences between scum and town, and therefore one of the most useful scum tells there is.

[Meransiel]

Again, stop the hell generalizing! This is a special situation where I deem it a logical decision.

Shamba - I answered to that, I think you're also generalizing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why is that?

Scum have to rolefish. Especially in a large game, the scum need to find the town power roles before the town power find them. It's one of the biggest differences between scum and town, and therefore one of the most useful scum tells there is.

Um, whut?

If Meran is Town than jumping on a Role-fishing accusation is a very easy way to drive a mislynch. Do you disagree?

Also you didn't answer my direct question - who is Scum?

[Yosarian2]

Why is that?

Scum have to rolefish. Especially in a large game, the scum need to find the town power roles before the town power find them. It's one of the biggest differences between scum and town, and therefore one of the most useful scum tells there is.

Um, whut?

If Meran is Town than jumping on a Role-fishing accusation is a very easy way to drive a mislynch. Do you disagree?

That's a bizzare question, honestly. Why are you assuming Meran is town here?

You basically said "rolefishing isn't a scum tell". I said "Yes, it is." And you responded with a kind of bizarre leap from there to assuming that Meren is town and that everyone who's trying to lynch him is scum trying to get a mislynch.

If you really want an answer to that question, then, uh, if someone is town and does something really, really scummy like rolefishing, then yes, pointing out that they did something really really scummy is a good way to get them lynched. It's also a good way to scumhunt or to try to figure out their alignment.

Also you didn't answer my direct question - who is Scum?

If I knew that, I'd be voting for someone.

I'm considering sheeping PJ onto Meren; only problem is that, other then the role fishing thing (with I really want an explanation from Meren about), I don't think the rest of Meren's posting is bad.

I've also got a weird gut feeling about you, mostly because of your attacks on the neighbors. If all 3 neighbors are, in fact, town, then posts like this:

Do you think we should restrict our lynching to those three players to maximize the chances of hitting scum?

make me think that you might be a scum who's trying to chain multiple mislynches off of setup speculation and attempts to outguess the mod. I'm also a little weirded out by how hard you were riding the DH thing. I also don't agree with you that Sensfan trying to pressure Hydra into acting in a way that Sensfan seems to honestly think is more pro-town is a scumtell on Sensfan's part; early on day 1, trying to pressure someone into acting in a more pro-town way is often a good idea.

I'm not really confident about you being scum, because I could see a town thinking in some of the ways you have said so far, but if you could explain yourself a little more, I'd appreciate it.

1. Do you really think Sensfan is scum for trying to use pressure to change Hydra's behavior in a way he thought was more pro-town? Or do you not think that's what sensfan was trying to do? I don't really get your attack here.

2. Do you actually think that chain-lynching the neighbors to find the scum that might or might not be in that group is a good idea?

3. Why are you making such a big deal about DH not getting what was going on? If I went into a neighbor quicktopic and I saw someone saying "hey, guys, you can lynch me, but do so tomorrow" or something, I'd be suspicious of the guy to, until I understood what he was getting at. Is this tied to your "one of the neighbors must be scum" theory?

4. Do you really think that power role fishing isn't a scumtell? Why are you assuming that Meran is town?

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's a bizzare question, honestly. Why are you assuming Meran is town here?

You basically said "rolefishing isn't a scum tell". I said "Yes, it is." And you responded with a kind of bizarre leap from there to assuming that Meren is town and that everyone who's trying to lynch him is scum trying to get a mislynch.

No, you didn’t. I posted on observation that based on unknown information (Meran’s alignment) there may be scum in a sub-set of players based on actions taken. I don’t know anything about Meran’s alignment and am not assuming he is Town. Do you not understand the effect the word “IF” has on my statements?

I don’t believe the role-fishing that Meran is being accused of is a very reliable scum-tell. In my experience early Day 1 statement’s like Meran’s come as much from bad / stupid Town than from scum. There’s little upside for scum to so blatantly offer themselves up as an easy lynch when the amount of information they would get is zero.

Scum actually doing role-fishing going to be doing it in a less blatant manner, IMO.

If you really want an answer to that question, then, uh, if someone is town and does something really, really scummy like rolefishing, then yes, pointing out that they did something really really scummy is a good way to get them lynched. It's also a good way to scumhunt or to try to figure out their alignment.

So if Meran flips Town you are in agreement that at least 1 scum is likely found in that subset of players?

If I knew that, I'd be voting for someone.

I’ll have to review Victorian Vampire Mafia to see if you were so conservative with your vote Day 1 there.

I'm considering sheeping PJ onto Meren; only problem is that, other then the role fishing thing (with I really want an explanation from Meren about), I don't think the rest of Meren's posting is bad.

Hmmm why would you sheep PJ? Is it past history? The only part of his post where he differentiates himself from the rest of that crowd is his point about Meran’s post 90. Yet you seem to disagree with his takeaway based what I’ve just quoted.

I've also got a weird gut feeling about you, mostly because of your attacks on the neighbors. If all 3 neighbors are, in fact, town, then posts like this:

Let’s circle back … aside from your reads (and you have specifically said you have solid scum reads) why are you assuming the 3 neighbors are Town? You are doing the exact same thing (making a relational observation that is dependant on unknown information) that I did with Meran’s wagon above that you state is really weird.

If it isn’t ok for me to make said relational observations that may be useful later why is it ok for you to do so?

I'm also a little weirded out by how hard you were riding the DH thing.

So it doesn’t strike you as odd at all that DH made the same mistake Kondi did the first time he drew a Neighbor role PM yet it didn’t even cross his mind to question Kondi about his QT post pre-game or look at Kondi’s history as opposed to just voting him right out of the gate?

1. Do you really think Sensfan is scum for trying to use pressure to change Hydra's behavior in a way he thought was more pro-town? Or do you not think that's what sensfan was trying to do? I don't really get your attack here.

I think he’s scum for the manner in which he is crafting said attack. He’s pre-concluding on scummy behavior that has yet to officially happen as support for his “I’m not moving my vote” statement.

Furthermore focused solely on driving said “Pro-Town” behavior as opposed to scum-hunting. If Hydra behaves scummy (via showing Cognitive Dissonance, which is the thrust of Sens suspicion) then they are scummy for it regardless of whether posts are signed or not. The post signing element is a pointless procedure that doesn’t add ‘Towniness’ to Hydra, IMO.

2. Do you actually think that chain-lynching the neighbors to find the scum that might or might not be in that group is a good idea?

No. I never said I did. The fact that there is very, very likely 1 scum of some sort in that group isn't grounds for lynching solely on the fact. In fact in my response to Hydra I stated that I’m interested in lynching scummy players. Any of the Neighbors who play in a scummy manner (IMO) will be pushed.

3. Why are you making such a big deal about DH not getting what was going on? If I went into a neighbor quicktopic and I saw someone saying "hey, guys, you can lynch me, but do so tomorrow" or something, I'd be suspicious of the guy to, until I understood what he was getting at. Is this tied to your "one of the neighbors must be scum" theory?

4. Do you really think that power role fishing isn't a scumtell? Why are you assuming that Meran is town?

These have already been covered previously in this post so I’m not going to repeat them here for brevity’s sake.

[Amrun]

Singersigner replaces ReaperCharlie as a back-up mod.

[kondi2424]

@Kondi

– why didn’t you vote for Meran when you first called out rolefishing if you think it is scummy?

I was waiting for him to respond. I didn't like the response. Plus, DH voted for him, so I followed.

[SensFan]

Furthermore focused solely on driving said “Pro-Town” behavior as opposed to scum-hunting. If Hydra behaves scummy (via showing Cognitive Dissonance, which is the thrust of Sens suspicion) then they are scummy for it regardless of whether posts are signed or not. The post signing element is a pointless procedure that doesn’t add ‘Towniness’ to Hydra, IMO.

If they don't sign their posts or talk to each other before making their posts (and right now, they're not doing either), then they are going to objectively look by far scummier than anyone else by D3 or so. Instead of letting them point this out on D3 and give themselves an excuse for looking immensely scummy, I want them to fix this problem, so that if they look scummy it's because they're Scum, not because they're different people.