NY136: The Death of ReaperCharlie (GAME OVER, Town win!)

[earworm]

@Iecerint: That doesn't change he fact that you said DH was the most likely neighbor scum for doing the same thing as Parama did. Care to explain this? I know you say that

now

both votes are about the same in your mind, but there must have been some reason for you to say it at the time.

[Iecerint]

You're basically asking me to try to remember what was going through my mind when I did my catch-up post, right?

IIRC, Parama gave me good feelings in the first few pages (I remember agreeing with sapo when she said she wanted Parama to be town when she posted, so I'm pretty sure), and DH didn't.

[saporovirus]

@ Meransiel:

Don't like MBL's vote of Sensfan. It's

literally

the first time he's mentioned his name and he doesn't even attempt to explain it.

How many reasons are there to vote SensFan right now? If you give me a second reason, I'll give you a cookie.

How sold are you on that SensFan vote of yours? You don't seem thrilled to have company on the wagon.

How is this not scummy? He's criticized for giving no reasons to be on a wagon, and his response is to be like YOU GIVE REASONS LOL. And what does "You don't seem thrilled to have company" even mean? It sounds like he's trying to imply something, but what is he trying to imply? And I just don't like MBL's style of posting throughout this game in general. He's basically just putting out a lot of noise. As I said, asking people a bunch of questions is not the same as scum-hunting.

[Iecerint]

I think his point is that people normally feel good things about players who vote with them, but earworm feels bad things.

[TBuG]

I think his point is that people normally feel good things about players who vote with them, but earworm feels bad things.

The problem with his point is that it makes no sense. It's entirely possible and logical to suspect someone on the same wagon if there's no reasoning provided.

[saporovirus]

Earworm:

Spoiler:

Reading over the DH cases since I have him as town...

Spoiler: Saporovirus

Saporovirus's vote: Votes basically because of DH's statement of "if Meransiel is scum then the neighborhood is town". Really weak case and she seems to be tunnelling it pretty badly. Also this section of her post is a real head scratcher to me.

Also strange, imo, is DH’s speculation about 3-person town. And this:

Unvote, Vote: Meransiel

Not only has he been scummy, but if he flips scum, the 3 of us neighbors can rest easy knowing that we're near-confirmed town.

Yes, Meransiel wants to figure out the mystery of the neighborhood. THEREFORE HE MUST BE BAD SCUM TRYING TO GET US. WHICH MEANS WE ARE ALL GOOD BOYS. It is one thing to want to figure out your neighbors alignment, it's another to shut down anyone else who tries to get at it.

That seriously doesn't follow what DH was saying at all. To quote DH later:

sapo, trying to make sense of the neighborhood and asking for PRs are two completely different ballgames.

To explain my stance a bit further: I got the sense that DemonHybrid was using kondi's townslip to draw attention away from the neighbors, as evidenced by three-town-neighbors speculation. I was also made uneasy by his, "well, if meransiel flips scum, that clears us all as town." I presume he was referring to meran's rolefishing, which seems like a pretty slim thing to base NEAR CONFIRMED TOWN STATUS FOR ALL NEIGHBORS upon, unless I am missing something important here. Also, two or three posts stating suspicion of DH =/= "tunneling." Nothing has occurred to change my read.

DH and Parama:

Did you try to ask kondi what he meant when he said "Go ahead and lynch me guys?" Did you have any discussion about what he might mean?

[earworm]

@Saporovirus: "Tunelling" was probably a bad word to use there. I just meant that you were being

very

aggressive towards DH using less than fully explained reasoning that didn't make a lot of sense on the surface. (at least to me)

Thank you for elucidating your position.

[Iecerint]

Sapo sounded like she didn't even know what the implication was, but I thought the implication was clear. That's why I clarified.

[AlmasterGM]

/prodded, I was busy this weekend. Will get caught up tomorrow.

[Meransiel]

How is this not scummy? He's criticized for giving no reasons to be on a wagon, and his response is to be like YOU GIVE REASONS LOL. And what does "You don't seem thrilled to have company" even mean? It sounds like he's trying to imply something, but what is he trying to imply? And I just don't like MBL's style of posting throughout this game in general. He's basically just putting out a lot of noise. As I said, asking people a bunch of questions is not the same as scum-hunting.

So he sheeped existing information. That's the exact same thing Iecerint did with DH (and I do find the points against DH quite relevant). Hence, no problem.

And by the company thing, I think he's not implying, but accusing you of being scumpartner with sens. By what may look as dragging down his own wagon.
Sorry, but I really don't see the MBL as scum thing.

[Hydra]

0.

As for the whole Hydra business, I joined up with Thor so that we could play with one voice and bounce reads off of eachother in an attempt to figure out who is town and who is scum needing to be lynched, and so that the workload could be minimized for each of us. Considering its been only Thor so far, this shouldn't have been a problem.

Anyways,

1.

Things that should not still be being talked about:
1. Simply Being a hydra (Alamaster and Sens). AGM vote still being here based on this point is terrible. Its like signing the time of day when posting, it serves no purpose and no one cares. Voting or pointing out when players make illogically made out arguments or circular logic is town, voting over something that is unimportant to the game in general (time of day, my mood, what I had for lunch is anti-town.)
2. There neighbors. If one is scum, vote them. If not, it makes no sense to simply lynch through them in an effort to find scum. There could be 0,1,2 scum neighbors, and it makes no sense to arbitrarly lynch. Yosarian's point in this regard is actually very relevant, given a 50-50 chance of a scum neighbor, its worse odds than lynching at random.

2.

things that do need addressing:

Hydra, I don't want the Town to lose, so instead of pushing my lynch like there's no tomorrow, we can do 2 things:

1. Push my lynch further, but NOT like there's no tomorrow.
2. We both replace out, and discuss the game.

Seriously, BOTH those options are more pro-town than what you're doing now.

I'm much less sold on the win-tasticness of this lynch than Thor is (seriously, three out of the five people on this lynch are langushing and don't appear to be pushing their convictions about this lynch), but I have to ask about this post. I don't understand how you think it is more pro-town of us to continue pushing a lynch on the one person you should know is confirmed town (yourself), but not quite as 'heavily' as has been done before. Could you explain this?

The aim when we vote someone is either to run them up to a lynch for being scum, or argue for their lynch up until a time that we no longer think the person is scum. Pushing lazily on people in scum sided.

I'm also interested in who your two strongest town reads are the next time you post.

3.

In that regard (Meran), I also believe your/the MagnaofIllusion wagon is terrible. We share a strong town read on Magna, and I dont believe the votes being there are being used properly or at all well. These votes need to move to another place.

4.

My strongest town reads at this point are Yosarian2, Magna, and saporovirus. Their insight and pushes so far have sounded very pro-town.

[MrBuddyLee]

unvote, vote: Parama

asking people a bunch of questions is not the same as scum-hunting.

@Meransiel

: Can you please clarify your current stances on Parama and DH?

@Parama

: What do you think of Meransiel?

[petroleumjelly]

Unvote: Meransiel, Vote: Parama

.

[Meransiel]

I don't understand how you think it is more pro-town of us to continue pushing a lynch on the one person you should know is confirmed town (yourself), but not quite as 'heavily' as has been done before. Could you explain this?

Well, me knowing that I am town, I realize that one player tunneling on me is one less player actively playing on me. While one player simply attacking me as a side thing while having other leads and suspicions can also dispute people that DON'T enter my wagon, that on flimsy terms, as scum know to stay away from mislynches. It's not the OPTIMAL thing, that, I agree.

I'm also interested in who your two strongest town reads are the next time you post.

As I said before, my main town reads are kondi, Yosarian and you.

Can you please explain your town read on Magna? Also, can you remove your vote from me, given your stance?

@Meransiel: Can you please clarify your current stances on Parama and DH?

I agree with the arguments made against both of them, and I don't strongly lean on either of them as a lynch. But I think that it is logically impossible for 2 of the neighbors to be scum at the same time (if that were true, Parama is an idiot for outing the neighborhood. Except Parama is not an idiot). So I don't strongly disagree with their wagons, but it wouldn't be a horrible idea for us to leave this alone until we can more accurately make a call.

[Meransiel]

EDIT: one less player actively playing the game

[DemonHybrid]

I'm back. I'm going to read up and post responses and general thoughts in a few hours.

[Yosarian2]

I'm back.

I'm still happy with my vote on AGM. He still really hasn't done anything except vote for Hydra for a weak reason and the scummy neighbors argument he was making.

I know it's hard to get momentum going on a wagon on someone who's not saying anything, but it really shouldn't be. The fact that he hasn't said anything should be another reason to vote him, not a reason to ignore him.

[Hydra]

Yeah, at this point i'm more sure than not that Meran is town. This vote is going other places,

Unvote
Vote: AlamasterGM

This wagon needs to happen.

And meran, for the Magna town read, its a feeling I get from his posts of a pro-town mindset. He asks many questions I was thinking as I (re)read the thread, and though some of his logic is wrong and maybe I disagree with (while a lot is right), I can see where he is coming from. It doesn't feel as though his thought process is coming from scum.

I'd actually be a lot happier if you (re:everyone on that wagon) got off his wagon and joined this one.

I can't believe AGM doesn't have more votes, and people seem to be avoiding mentioning it, or if they do its a passing statement about how 'yeah, he's acting scummy' with no vote behind it. This apathy is usually what I associate when trying to get a wagon on scum.

[earworm]

unvote, vote: Parama

asking people a bunch of questions is not the same as scum-hunting.

@Meransiel

: Can you please clarify your current stances on Parama and DH?

@Parama

: What do you think of Meransiel?

*Looks at your last vote.*
*Looks for Sensfan posts between this post and your last vote.*
*Looks for Parama posts between this post and your last vote.*
*sigh*

But, godammit you are town aren't you? :/
Could you at least

attempt

to explain your votes, if only for my sanity?

[Meransiel]

@hydra: We'll agree to disagree then. But I agree that it's unlikely more people will be joining me there...so yeah, maybe later.

Unvote

[Hydra]

I wasn't talking about the same townslip as Parama.

Which townslip were you talking about? I asked you about it before and you weren't able to vocalize it, so...?

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this stage with deadline one week away I think we need to start consolidating wagons.

That said despite the fact that Sensfan is obviously scum (scummy play, lack of scum-hunting when around, flaking out when under fire for said behavior ala Blackest Night Mafia) I don’t see enough support to continue to push for him today.

I’m also rather mystified that Sensfan who already has three votes is getting ZERO attention from players (I’m thinking of Hydra at 342 and Yos at 341) while AGM is catching solid heat for THE EXACT SAME REASONS!!!!

Looking at the last vote count I’m much more suspicious of DemonHybrid than AGM at this juncture.

UNVOTE: Sensfan
VOTE: DemonHybrid

SnowWhite’s slot has been useless this game. Hrezs is not far behind.

--

Haha, misrep it up.
I thought kondi was a good policy lynch BEFORE he was scum.
When I thought he was scum, I pushed it as a policy lynch anyways . Me and DH had already agreed to push this lynch prior to the game so it hardly matters.
I now have no reason to believe there is scum in the neighborhood.

Actually nothing you said here indicates I misrepped you in the least. I’m going to lay out my understanding (limited as it is by not having QT access) of the situation. Please point out where I am mis-repping.

Pregame – Param in QT “I want to policy lynch Kondi to ‘improve our Neighborhood”, DH in QT “Sure, let’s do it”

Pregame – Kondi in QT “Sure guys just do it a bit down the line so I can confirm you”

Pregame – Parama and DH in QT “That’s scummy, let’s lynch him as obv-scum”, also not a single QT post directed to Kondi asking him why he said what he did.

Game – Parama and DH – “Vote Kondi” and when questioned “It is not a policy lynch Kondi was all hella scummy in QT”

Game – Kondi – “Yeh, I screwed up and didn’t realize we were not alignment confirmed”

Game – Parama and then DH – “Oh, now I get it Kondi is confirmed Town and there are no scum in the Neighborhood”

That’s my understanding. Correct me where I am wrong.

Tell me why what kondi posted isn't a townslip, because I believe they exist, and I believe kondi made one. If you think townslips don't exist, then prove it to me right here that kondi did not in fact townslip.

Because any posting behavior (like Kondi’s explanation) can easily be faked by scum. It’s a simple concept.

I love the “Prove it to me” part of your post here. Um, no. You can hold onto whatever Mafia theory beliefs you have. It’s not my job to convince you that you have bad ones.

Does AGM's post not look like lining up lynches to you? Because it does to me.

Nope and I’ve explained this several times. Why are you requesting I keep repeating things that have been stated already?
--

My wagon contains the whole neighborhood. Hence.

Um here is the list of 5 I originally mentioned. The whole Neighborhood is here?

Shanba, DH, Kondi, Hydra, Petro

If I flip Town, you will get a whole bunch of new scum reads, but no new town reads. And I find that suspicious.

Um, whut? If you find looking for scum pushing (theoretical) Town lynches a bad thing then I think we are playing two different games.

Hydra, I don't want the Town to lose, so instead of pushing my lynch like there's no tomorrow, we can do 2 things:

1. Push my lynch further, but NOT like there's no tomorrow.
2. We both replace out, and discuss the game.

Seriously, BOTH those options are more pro-town than what you're doing now.

How again would Town autolose if you were mislynched Day 1 of a Large Game again?

[Hydra]

@AGM: why are you slamming Hydra for not signing their posts when you aren't signing them as part of Final Destination in [REDACTED]?

This question is super full of win. I may need to change my stance on earworm.

My biggest scumread is still on Hrezszs, who is lurking and not going to be lynched by all accounts. I think his few posts are particularly scummy because they basically repeat what others say while passing it off as his own thoughts and show little to no interest in finding scums.

Hrezs also still needs to explain how Hydra was the only fencesitter on the 'is there scum in the neighbors' question. I'm not forgetting that one.

Can you please explain your town read on Magna? Also, can you remove your vote from me, given your stance?

Begging to the sloppy nice head, eh?

In any case, onto this one since I very much share Ludi's conclusion - can you explain how Magna is scum? He's doing very much his usual barrage of assaults, and the few conclusions he drew that people are dancing around going 'ooooh, scum!' about were not solid conclusions and were instead proffered thoughts if the conclusion was correct - which is 100% perfectly normal. Other than that he's been aggressive, has provided reads, and has debated the merits of scum cases while advancing his own. He looks very much town to me and my Hydra mate as well.

Yeah, at this point i'm more sure than not that Meran is town. This vote is going other places,

I will clarify this is a *hotly* debated point within the hydra at the moment and I personally think half of me is an idiot. That said, I conceded I would allow the unvote shift to AGM since AGM is very scummy as well. He somewhat sold me on how no one else is pushing the Meran lynch but us, despite the number of voters on him. That was at least 'eeeeh' enough to allow me to shift to AGM. But I'm going to keep working on this one in our QT.

[MrBuddyLee]

I believe SensFan is the only player in the game who hasn't made a single attempt to scumhunt. kondi and SnowWhite aren't exactly lighting it up, but at least they've dipped their toes in. SensFan was active on three separate days and didn't show an ounce of curiosity. But if SensFan isn't picking up prods, I'm anticipating a replacement, and I'd like to stir up more action before our July 5th deadline.

I don't like the nature of Parama's attack on MoI. It seems to be focused more on MoI's style than suspicions, and when I asked for clarification from Parama on the meat of the suspicions, I got the Heisman. When I asked for clarification on his early suspicion of kondi, I got the Shaft.

[Hydra]

I’m also rather mystified that Sensfan who already has three votes is getting ZERO attention from players (I’m thinking of

Hydra

at 342 and Yos at 341) while AGM is catching solid heat for THE EXACT SAME REASONS!!!!

I have explicitly explained to you why I have a town read on Sens and a scum read on AGM and how I believe their actions are EXACTLY NOT THE SAME. Other head is at least listening to me on that one, though it took some work. Whassup?

Hydra, I don't want the Town to lose, so instead of pushing my lynch like there's no tomorrow, we can do 2 things:

1. Push my lynch further, but NOT like there's no tomorrow.
2. We both replace out, and discuss the game.

Seriously, BOTH those options are more pro-town than what you're doing now.

How again would Town autolose if you were mislynched Day 1 of a Large Game again?

It's not his mislynch - it's that I'm tunneling him
Yeah, that post is terrible.
You're not even aware of the best part - he has been in PM conversation with me, wanting reviews of games of his...to help his scum game. Looking at #2 I flip the frell out at that one.