Mini 1203: Set's Speed Mafia - Game Over.

[SensFan]

A) Yes, now why can't you convince them you are innocent through good conversation and scumhunting? Is that only for pros?

I feel like people like you and Beck wouldn't appreciate my response to why I didn't try and persuade you with reasoned argument.

I would appreciate it

Enlighten me.

Let's just say that my experience yesterday shows me that reasoned argument isn't the best way to talk with some of the people in this game.

[Junpei]

But it is with me, and I'm the one who has a written out argument against you, reason with me, not them.

[SensFan]

But it is with me, and I'm the one who has a written out argument against you, reason with me, not them.

You I might actually give credence to. You seem a few notches above the average in this game. But I also happen to be exceedingly lazy, and so don't see the reason to bother responding to a large case on me when I know it won't sway most of the people who suspect me.

And I'll ask you now, since Beck isn't talking sense. When I claimed that I tracked him to you, he came out and claimed that he tracked you to someone who is still living. Thus, he has already pointed out that you do in fact have a Power Role of some sort. Thus, what's the benefit here of confirming himself as a Tracker? There are 3 claimed Trackers, and I doubt all of them are Town. Therefore, I don't see the benefit in not at least clearing himself as a Tracker, since at this point I have to wonder if actually the Trackers are just me and Bob (fitting the EN/ON pair), and he doesn't actually know who you targetted.

[Toast]

And I'll ask you now, since Beck isn't talking sense. When I claimed that I tracked him to you, he came out and claimed that he tracked you to someone who is still living. Thus, he has already pointed out that you do in fact have a Power Role of some sort. Thus, what's the benefit here of confirming himself as a Tracker? There are 3 claimed Trackers, and I doubt all of them are Town. Therefore, I don't see the benefit in not at least clearing himself as a Tracker, since at this point I have to wonder if actually the Trackers are just me and Bob (fitting the EN/ON pair), and he doesn't actually know who you targetted.

If all of your posts were this well written I don't think anybody would be suspecting you of anything.

[Junpei]

But it is with me, and I'm the one who has a written out argument against you, reason with me, not them.

You I might actually give credence to. You seem a few notches above the average in this game. But I also happen to be exceedingly lazy, and so don't see the reason to bother responding to a large case on me when I know it won't sway most of the people who suspect me.

And I'll ask you now, since Beck isn't talking sense. When I claimed that I tracked him to you, he came out and claimed that he tracked you to someone who is still living. Thus, he has already pointed out that you do in fact have a Power Role of some sort. Thus, what's the benefit here of confirming himself as a Tracker? There are 3 claimed Trackers, and I doubt all of them are Town. Therefore, I don't see the benefit in not at least clearing himself as a Tracker, since at this point I have to wonder if actually the Trackers are just me and Bob (fitting the EN/ON pair), and he doesn't actually know who you targetted.

To respond to your first paragraph, I understand your frustration, I think though that if you use logic and reasoning to clear yourself to the point where you actually convince me, you'll gain my support which will help a lot. I also believe that others will see the logic and will be swayed eventually. You won't be lynched if all the logic against you is counteracted.

I see your point here as well, although here's his point. Outing me as a specific PR tells mafia just what exactly they need to look out for. If I out who I visited and then people ask WHY I visited them, then I will have no choice but to out my specific role in order to do so. It is day 2 and the odds that there are more town PRs hidden are low(although still very possible), we want to protect what little intelligence we have from mafia. He may be lying, but I think that that will eventually make itself aparant if we hold our tongue and scum hunt. If it gets to the point where he's rather scummy, we can ask if he knows who I visited or not, to which I'll respond with who I visited and if he's wrong then I'll know he is scum. Then if town decides to still lynch him we will. Same goes for if my neck is put on the chopping block.

[SensFan]

And I'll ask you now, since Beck isn't talking sense. When I claimed that I tracked him to you, he came out and claimed that he tracked you to someone who is still living. Thus, he has already pointed out that you do in fact have a Power Role of some sort. Thus, what's the benefit here of confirming himself as a Tracker? There are 3 claimed Trackers, and I doubt all of them are Town. Therefore, I don't see the benefit in not at least clearing himself as a Tracker, since at this point I have to wonder if actually the Trackers are just me and Bob (fitting the EN/ON pair), and he doesn't actually know who you targetted.

If all of your posts were this well written I don't think anybody would be suspecting you of anything.

Since when is arrogance/laziness/stubborness/assholeness a scumtell?

P.Edit: I see your post, Jun. I'll give it a proper response in a second.

[Junpei]

I think laziness is a scumtell, the other three I don't think so.

[SensFan]

But it is with me, and I'm the one who has a written out argument against you, reason with me, not them.

You I might actually give credence to. You seem a few notches above the average in this game. But I also happen to be exceedingly lazy, and so don't see the reason to bother responding to a large case on me when I know it won't sway most of the people who suspect me.

And I'll ask you now, since Beck isn't talking sense. When I claimed that I tracked him to you, he came out and claimed that he tracked you to someone who is still living. Thus, he has already pointed out that you do in fact have a Power Role of some sort. Thus, what's the benefit here of confirming himself as a Tracker? There are 3 claimed Trackers, and I doubt all of them are Town. Therefore, I don't see the benefit in not at least clearing himself as a Tracker, since at this point I have to wonder if actually the Trackers are just me and Bob (fitting the EN/ON pair), and he doesn't actually know who you targetted.

To respond to your first paragraph, I understand your frustration, I think though that if you use logic and reasoning to clear yourself to the point where you actually convince me, you'll gain my support which will help a lot. I also believe that others will see the logic and will be swayed eventually. You won't be lynched if all the logic against you is counteracted.

I see your point here as well, although here's his point. Outing me as a specific PR tells mafia just what exactly they need to look out for. If I out who I visited and then people ask WHY I visited them, then I will have no choice but to out my specific role in order to do so. It is day 2 and the odds that there are more town PRs hidden are low(although still very possible), we want to protect what little intelligence we have from mafia. He may be lying, but I think that that will eventually make itself aparant if we hold our tongue and scum hunt. If it gets to the point where he's rather scummy, we can ask if he knows who I visited or not, to which I'll respond with who I visited and if he's wrong then I'll know he is scum. Then if town decides to still lynch him we will. Same goes for if my neck is put on the chopping block.

He doesn't need to out you as a specific PR. He just needs to say who you visited, and since we know it's a live body, it's not even like we can imply that you're a Vig or something by the fact you targeted a corpse.

I'm still hung up on this Tracker thing. I claimed ON Tracker with a result on Beck. He then comes out and says "that makes no sense with a full tracker". I prodded him and asked him if he was claiming full Tracker, and he backed off and said "no, 1-shot tracker." Then Bob comes around and claims EN Tracker. ON and EN Tracker make a nice pair of town roles that roughly add up to 1 Full Tracker. One ON Tracker and one 1-shot Tracker make less sense, especially with a claimed EN Tracker. It makes more sense if the only Town Trackers are a pair of ON/EN Trackers, with a 1-shot Scum Tracker. It also makes sense if Beck is Scum but not a Tracker, and is now scrambling trying to figure out what to do. If he confirms his role as a Tracker, and then tomorrow Bob is also able to confirm his role as a Tracker, then I think we need to start assuming that there's a Mafia Tracker on the prowl. But right now, I'm the only confirmed Tracker, with 2 claimed Trackers out there, one of whom claims to have a result that would confirm him but is refusing to do so. It just smells of something not being right.

[Junpei]

First point applies to your second so I'll wrap it up in one point. Your reasoning is much more clear to me now. Telling him who I visited probably won't tell scum a whole lot but will tell town that he is confirmed between the two of us(as tracker, could be mafia tracker). I think that I'm convinced that we should try to confirm him. Good point. I'd like to hear Beck's thoughts though of course, to see how he might refute this, since he is the one who needs to initiate this test. But you have my vote.

Do you have time to respond to my scumpost?

[Beck]

But it is with me, and I'm the one who has a written out argument against you, reason with me, not them.

You I might actually give credence to. You seem a few notches above the average in this game. But I also happen to be exceedingly lazy, and so don't see the reason to bother responding to a large case on me when I know it won't sway most of the people who suspect me.

And I'll ask you now, since Beck isn't talking sense. When I claimed that I tracked him to you, he came out and claimed that he tracked you to someone who is still living. Thus, he has already pointed out that you do in fact have a Power Role of some sort. Thus, what's the benefit here of confirming himself as a Tracker? There are 3 claimed Trackers, and I doubt all of them are Town. Therefore, I don't see the benefit in not at least clearing himself as a Tracker, since at this point I have to wonder if actually the Trackers are just me and Bob (fitting the EN/ON pair), and he doesn't actually know who you targetted.

I suggest everyone re-read for the actual facts

Sens said who I tracked

[Beck]

But it is with me, and I'm the one who has a written out argument against you, reason with me, not them.

You I might actually give credence to. You seem a few notches above the average in this game. But I also happen to be exceedingly lazy, and so don't see the reason to bother responding to a large case on me when I know it won't sway most of the people who suspect me.

And I'll ask you now, since Beck isn't talking sense. When I claimed that I tracked him to you, he came out and claimed that he tracked you to someone who is still living. Thus, he has already pointed out that you do in fact have a Power Role of some sort. Thus, what's the benefit here of confirming himself as a Tracker? There are 3 claimed Trackers, and I doubt all of them are Town. Therefore, I don't see the benefit in not at least clearing himself as a Tracker, since at this point I have to wonder if actually the Trackers are just me and Bob (fitting the EN/ON pair), and he doesn't actually know who you targetted.

I suggest everyone re-read for the actual facts

Sens said who I tracked

[SensFan]

I said who you

targeted

. You then claimed Tracker, and have yet to claim who Jun targeted, even though you already decided to out him as a PR.

[SensFan]

Do you have time to respond to my scumpost?

Sigh. Fine. Give me a little while.

[Beck]

Yo Beck. Where did Jupei go?

Read right before it

Homeboy fishing info now lying about it

Can we lynch him now?

[Beck]

I never said my target was Jim before that post.

He lied to you all again

[Toast]

Proposal:

Jun, salt/hash the name of the person you visited and post the hash. THEN Beck tell us who Jun visited, otherwise we lynch him. That way Jun can't go along with whatever Beck says because there's still a chance Jun is not a PR at all (beck made it up, jun followed).

Good?

[Beck]

Regardless if you are town, don't say anything cause I'm going to try and see if my subject is mafia or town.

Yo Beck. Where did Jupei go?

[Junpei]

Links beck please, you need links so it is easier for me to understand you.

[Beck]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3237242

[Junpei]

Proposal:

Jun, salt/hash the name of the person you visited and post the hash. THEN Beck tell us who Jun visited, otherwise we lynch him. That way Jun can't go along with whatever Beck says because there's still a chance Jun is not a PR at all (beck made it up, jun followed).

Good?

If we were scumbuddys wouldn't we of arranged this beforehand so this trick wouldn't mess us up?

I don't understand the salt/hash thing, wouldn't that mean that beck could see who it is that I visited and just copy that?

[Toast]

If we were scumbuddys wouldn't we of arranged this beforehand so this trick wouldn't mess us up?

You arranged to agree on who you visited? Possible. I don't think beck would be so hesitant to say who you tracked if you were scum buddies.

I don't understand the salt/hash thing, wouldn't that mean that beck could see who it is that I visited and just copy that?

No, hash functions are not reversible. For example, say you visited me. Run "toast +!@#%" (random characters after name is the "salt"), then run it through md5 (just google for an md5 algorithm), then post the resulting hash. beck cannot know what you entered into the hash, since you can't reverse it. After beck claims, you post what you originally ran through the hash, so we can verify you aren't just following beck.

[Toast]

Shit, I messed up quotes. You know what I meant.

[Junpei]

Oh Beck I see your point now. I thought that he was asking where I went as in "He disappeared after posting where has he gone?" But in light of the new context and thinking about it I see your point he did out who you tracked quickly.

[Setael]

Vote Count

SensFan (1)

- Beck

Not Voting

: Pine, Ranmaru, Junpei, Toast, Noramp, Cyberbob, Spyrex, SensFan, TwistedSpoon (looking for a replacement)

Deadline

: 2 days, 15 hours, 15 minutes

[Junpei]

> Other Information
pre-17) No mechanism or website may be used to prove that a decision was achieved randomly. I.e. you may chose who claims first by rolling a dice, but you'll have to trust the person who rolled the dice not to lie.

Against the rules I believe.