Mini 1199 - Plissken's Pit [GAME OVER]

[yabbaguy]

Why Swiftstrike?

1. Swiftstrike quickly asks me "
   if you think you're right
   about those 4, then you can lynch them all,
   why not vote
   ?" This is scummy because it suggests impatience, wanting me to just vote all those people in the orange.
   
2. When probed, Swiftstrike replies that the post was meant to convey "I see Town amongst the orange,
   I don't think that list is right [a vote would be wrong]
   " - a direct contradiction to the previous which said, "come on, if you think you're right, vote!" Why would he backtrack?
   
3. Ergo, a scummy post and a scummy reversal.

[PeregrineV]

@Yabba- I've looked over all the posts about whatever it is you guys are talking about, but not seeing the lie part. I saw something about intent, but not sure how it's possible to lie about intent.
But, A Swift Iso left me unimpressed & yabba vote seems OMGUS-y. You have anything more to go on please give.

@Locke- Well presented case on Sky, and good followup. I want to hear Sky's response.
However Sky does ask a good question to a major scum candidate, who has yet to respond.

@Swift- I don't get the Yabba case. Since I tend to like his playsyle and reads, your going to need something WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more solid than the OMGUS.

@SRG- Thoughts on Rikana, Sky, Swift?

@Mod- I like the "day start" prods, as I find myself losing track of my games when they go into night.

p-edit: Yabba case!!

[yabbaguy]

I feel my best route at this point to persuade you to go my way is to be as simple as possible. That's why I'm not engaging in Swift's labyrinth of logic, otherwise this will become a whirlwind of words that will drown a perfectly good standalone tell. Unless someone else votes me and agrees with him, I am inclined to believe that the lie I've flagged on him is far more concrete and obvious.

That's why I keep instructing Town to just look at the damn bolded words.

[PeregrineV]

Why Swiftstrike?

1. Swiftstrike quickly asks me "
   if you think you're right
   about those 4, then you can lynch them all,
   why not vote
   ?" This is scummy because it suggests impatience, wanting me to just vote all those people in the orange.
   
2. When probed, Swiftstrike replies that the post was meant to convey "I see Town amongst the orange,
   I don't think that list is right [a vote would be wrong]
   " - a direct contradiction to the previous which said, "come on, if you think you're right, vote!" Why would he backtrack?
   
3. Ergo, a scummy post and a scummy reversal.

1. Wouldn't you ask the same question of him, why he's not voting?
2. @Swift- do you see town among the Orange on the Yabba list? If so, who, and why?

@Yabba & Swift- if not voting each other, who would you vote? And why?

lol another p-edit

[yabbaguy]

I'm getting excited, sorry. I've never had so confident a tell in my life.

@1 - no. Think of scum motives for a second - if Swift notices I've got a scum who I've stupidly cleared, then if I were to just say "what the hell, let's just blast that chunk of orange and be done with it", it's a Mafia win. He gave me a nudge in the wrong direction, I claim, to go through with that losing strategy.

[yabbaguy]

I don't know who I'd back up with. Everything's conditional on this flip.

[PeregrineV]

@Yabba- I had a response typed up, but will save as draft until I get responses to 528, as that will help my response.

But he's orange too. And what motivation would he have as scum to say anything, when it would bring attention to him and possibly get him lynched?

But I think I kind of get it.....

[PeregrineV]

I don't know who I'd back up with. Everything's conditional on this flip.

Now it sounds like a trap!

OK, since voting is good

Vote: Swiftstrike

[Swiftstrike]

@Swift- I don't get the Yabba case. Since I tend to like his playsyle and reads, your going to need something WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more solid than the OMGUS.

It's not a case about OMGUS, look at each response he has given , each and every single post is trying to move any suspicion off himself and on to me, I don't know if he spotted I was trying to trap him and instead went on the offensive, but he refuses to discuss the question I'm asking and is instead going "You get no reply to any of your blathering that I'm scum until this gets cleared up." Which he may as well have said I ain't playing with you no more there is no town motivation for that. I'll post up a case once I get to your other questions
--

2. @Swift- do you see town among the Orange on the Yabba list? If so, who, and why?

@Yabba & Swift- if not voting each other, who would you vote? And why?

I stated already I can see town on that list, I got a feeling that Locke is town, first you can look at the day 1 wagons if Locke spot was scum then there was a fair chance that the Malps wagon would be pushed harder by fellow scum now based on yabba list that would HAVE to be either myself, sky or FS. Now look at how that day ended Sky was L-2 vote without really pushing that wagon, I'm town but look at the wagon from me as well I wasn't forcing any wagon for Malps and, FS disappeared at the end of day with what would then have to be a scum mate in danger with single vote suck else where doing nothing not really the behaviour of a scum buddy. so that would mean that if Locke was to be scum it would have to be with IS as the push for the opposing wagon which I just don't buy.

As for who else would I vote for, I could definitely see a vote for Sky Locke made a reasonable case for it, and Sky ties in well with a yabba scum as a yabba ISO paints a strange picture ISO 20 (post 243) lists sky as bottom of his town->scum list, and yet his next post is going out after IS who is second bottom, and Sky get questioned at ISO 23 (post 248), Sky ignores it and yet by ISO 29 (post 292) Sky is now a town read and is not mentioned again until he drops his uncertain list of certain town reads.
--

I don't know who I'd back up with. Everything's conditional on this flip.

Now it sounds like a trap!

OK, since voting is good

Vote: Swiftstrike

Sorry what sound like a trap there? He refuses to make any response and continues to state the same bollocks line over and over and it's suddenly a trap. Explain that.

[PeregrineV]

A trap is a version of a reaction test where you gain reads from the reactions of other players, but is more involved than a simple vote or fake claim. Not really seen one used on this site before, but that's what it sounds like.

As for the rest of your answers, I'll have to go back and verify your statements. Will respond after that. (Hint: Links=goodness )

[Swiftstrike]

I think that's a scum error - that simplified the game for me.

Starts the day by quickly dismissing the night kill, despite it being a really weird night kill after the lost of our jailkeeper, I see no reason to do that than it doesn't fit with yabba's the logic that yabba is trying to use. Yabba is trying to paint that the scum have all got to be in the lower posters in this game now if that is true then why are they bumping off Emp as another lower poster instead of taking out someone like IS or yabba who are allegedly driving this town. Now even look at that has anyone read Yabba's ISO ( I would advise it. Sticks a vote on Smalls the minute he comes into the game and leaves it there for the rest of the day. The rest of his posts it is surprising how easy it is to say so little with so many posts despite being having the highest post count has not managed to lead any of his wagons to lynch and really isn't pushing any of them hard given his post even his biggest push on the SRG wagon, he hops off and turns around on in fact none of his reads have been consistent. I raised the point about his changing SKY reads in my last post there with no input from Sky in response to his question so it just all strikes me as very strange

@ Peregrine

you said you like his playstyle and his reads. which of his reads do you like as there seems to have been many different stages of them.

Remember that my previous list had shades of red - but here I'm

showing uncertainty

.

Now I raised the issue of this false sense of uncertain that yabba is claiming to have but this statement here stands on it's on as well, it's not a case that it a claim to be uncertain it's a case of showing uncertain, why would anyone nned to claim to be showing an uncertainty rather than being uncertain. Then I can move back to the actual very certain post rather than as claimed showing uncertainty.

›

yabbaguy - hello!

›

Internet Stranger - As much as I went to fencesit,

I just know that he's Town.

Why would he start, arguably, the first major squabble of the game when nothing was going on if he was scum? Also, inkling that he's telling the truth and that he wouldn't have let Empking be the kill.

›

SomeRandomGuy - Why isn't he dead? But I'd like to believe that he genuinely thought he was lynched, that was super convincing that he just stayed online well into midnight for him and blathered on.

›

PeregrineV -

obviously Town-tunneling.

Classic symptoms.

›

Rikana -

obviously Town-tunneling.

Classic symptoms.
No vote yet.

All the people he mentions here are a use in being certain, even with IS where he does "WENT TO FENCE SIT" and then claim that IS started the first major squabble of the game where Peregrine/Rikana seems to have been the major squabble of the game which yabba should know as he has done this peace keeping act to that. Even then he "KNOWS" IS is town.

[Swiftstrike]

Now with added quote goodness.

As for who else would I vote for, I could definitely see a vote for Sky Locke made a reasonable case for it, and Sky ties in well with a yabba scum as a yabba ISO paints a strange picture ISO 20 (post 243) (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3254432) lists sky as bottom of his town->scum list, and yet his next post is going out after IS who is second bottom(http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3254708), and Sky get questioned at ISO 23(post 248)(http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3254878) , Sky ignores it (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3257683) (response to IS instead) and yet by ISO 29 (post 292)(http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3263772) Sky is now a town read and is

not mentioned again

until he drops his uncertain list of certain town reads(http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3300487). (underlined- you have to check this yourselves just to a find search on his ISO for SKY.

[yabbaguy]

Let's establish priorities here.

What I have here is an absolute 100% scumtell right here. Strike said something that I thought was scummy, and by backtracking now and saying completely the opposite, it has affirmed this. There is still no valid explanation out there from you that this was not done and why this isn't a 100% massive super numero uno scumtell. So yeah, I'm saying this multiple times because it is the truth. You can paint it as a lie all you'd like, but your first two posts of this Day were a scummy remark followed by a backtrack from said scummy statement. This still has no explanation.

None of what you say has Town intent and deserves an answer until you can refute this away. And I will be up the wall in fury and rage if Town overlooks my pleading and screaming and winds up passing over a super-numero-uno scumtell.

Your case points out a niggling inconsistency in my thought pattern which isn't even scummy, and isn't even true - I simply threw the list together as a mass of uncertainty really, I put Town names in there because they were based on Towntells I had seen before or what makes sense. Saying IS is Town is HARD after all the malarkey he's done this game, so it's more me trying to convince myself.

My super-primo-scumtells/slips supercede your blathering and niggling inconsistency flagging. I do hope Town has it the right way around.

[Sky]

1. Point taken, you got me there. I just thought it was about him not having access to internet and doing other stuff in this game, so I didn't look to deep into it. I know it doesn't look to good for me to say this. But I never did actually vote him, so I think it's not that bad. But, I realize it's a shitty defense.
2. I didn't say it at first because I wasn't sure myself. I thought your post on SRG was more original, but you had, and still have, hardly posted in this game. I can say it more so now since you've got a good case, even though it's wrong. But if you believe what I said above, which you probably don't, I didn't want to say you were creative because I wasn't sure. It was a feeling based off a small post of imagination, since it was virtually your only post of yesterday.
3. What I had to do was convince myself that I was doing the right thing for the town, and sometimes the best way to do that is to write it out, so I can look back at just what I was thinking.
4. I was confused about the deadline because I'm stupid, but maybe that was after that post. Either way, yesterdays was going to be SRG or JAM. I do know that's how it was when I posted that. I went for JAM because I felt so sure of that false hammer. Would you rather have had me sit idly and not take a side while other players drift past the deadline, even you're among that list.

I'm going to look at this Swift yabba debate going on tomorrow, it's too much too wrap my head around right now.

[yabbaguy]

I'm going to look at this Swift yabba debate going on tomorrow, it's too much too wrap my head around right now.

No, it's not. I have the most obvious scumslip in the world as clearly demonstrated at the top of the page. Swift only wishes it was a confusing logic debate.

[Internet Stranger]

Why Swiftstrike?

1. Swiftstrike quickly asks me "
   if you think you're right
   about those 4, then you can lynch them all,
   why not vote
   ?" This is scummy because it suggests impatience, wanting me to just vote all those people in the orange.
   
2. When probed, Swiftstrike replies that the post was meant to convey "I see Town amongst the orange,
   I don't think that list is right [a vote would be wrong]
   " - a direct contradiction to the previous which said, "come on, if you think you're right, vote!" Why would he backtrack?
   
3. Ergo, a scummy post and a scummy reversal.

This is how I see it:

Swift: "If those are your scumreads, why arent you voting for them?"
Yabba: ~probes~
Swift: "I think your scumreads are wrong, so a voting for tany of them would unwise."
Yabba: "SCUM SCUM SCUM!!"


So Yabba, youre actually looking worse in this transaction. Youre putting out scumreads, but then not going after them. Scum like doing that so that when a mislynch happens, they dont appear in the vote counts and can blame someone else "for leading the wagon". Did you try doing that already on the Malp and JAM wagons?

[yabbaguy]

You typed Swift's very contradiction that is scummy and you're calling me scummier. This demands an explanation.

And since this has become an issue, I think the consensus among myself and the Town is that I've been too BOLD, not too passive. What am I, a white knight who's valiantly leading the Town to all the wrong places, or am I too passive? I think I may have put the malp wagon into the murky "complacency lynch" territory, but JAM I was adamant wasn't scum until the dodgy hammer vote came down. I have been so transparent about everything this game, calling me passive and sitting back and watching mislynches happen is asinine.

So that's why I had orange-names-only (which I admit was obscure) and no vote.

I have stated my super-numero-uno case several times IS, and there still fails to come an explanation as to why this my case is false. If none comes, then the only proper thing to do is to vote Swift. I demand either an explanation as to how you can dismiss my super-numero-uno case or I demand a vote on Swift.

[yabbaguy]

Even if Swift's intent was to call me scum from the word go, same issue: am I too passive, or am I too sure? He said both in the span of two posts, and the first was scummy because he wanted me to vote the block and lose the game consequently. That's what makes the backtrack scummy.

[Internet Stranger]

Youre misrepresenting what im saying. A white Knight is precisely what I describe. You sit out there, being all BOLD, leading people into failwagons, sometimes you join them yourself, sometimes you dont. But the end result is all the same "aw, schuks guys, lets try again!" and acting all transparent.

Swift is calling you out on your supposed transparency and lack of conviction of your own actions. Youre calling four people scum, ergo, you should have no issue voting for any of them, but you dont vote for them, why? Are you waiting for one of your buddies to start the wagon? Maybe a misguided overzealous townie instead?

There is no contradiction there, Swift is calling you out and youre overreacting.

[yabbaguy]

Why no vote yet yabbaguy

? If you have it narrowed down to an group of 4 players to hold the scum in then

why not vote now

. Let's say you voted for me and got the mislynch then if scum are certain in the rest of the group of 4 then you still can just lynch off the rest of the players in the remaining days, (under the assumption it is 3 scum game). So I can't understand that if your town with a good certainty as to where the scum is

what is the hesitation

?

But that is my point,

your net seems extremely to tight

and strangely only included lower posters if we are to believe scum come from the orange group you highlighted, then it means that town have been driving wagons that have lead to the lynch of town. Now that is possible but if you look at the people who got lynched and killed it seems weird that most of them have been lower posters too. (with the exception of bristep). This just seems not right so I wanted to see why you where

narrowing down a list so far but holding back on the push

.

You've now completely changed the intent of that question. You asked me in that last post that I had four names in the orange that could've all been lynched, and had I contained the scumteam, it would've been all over. You were not at any point asking me whether I was tightening my dragnet too much. You asked me in the first post "you're confident enough - why not have a go?" and in the second "you're too confident - doesn't that seem unlikely?"

You are lying to me right now.

You are lying very poorly to me right now, and you've just outed yourself as obvious scum.

The first post states I should really be voting if I were Town. The second post states I really ought to reconsider who I'm about to vote.

How can the first post be doing what the second post claims it's doing?

[PeregrineV]

@Yabba- Yes, but what you are calling a scumtell (inconsistency between post content) is the same thing Swift is calling you out about (inconsistency between post content). I'm only leaning to your side because I'm fairly certain your town, and Swift was more "hasn't done anything until now" type null. Can you connect him to anything or anyone else?

Tend to agree with day2 IS (where the hell were you day1?) you are overreacting somewhat.

@Swift- I read your case with links (thank you), but Swift day1 has no Yabba mention, but does have a town JAM case. Can you convincingly connect Yabba to anything or anyone else, and why was he ignored by you day1?

@Sky- Well worded answer, but it sounds mostly like "yeah, my bad".

Unvote.
Vote: Sky

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the Yabba/Swift thing. And also your thoughts on Rikana and Fighting.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Sorry i haven't been active the past day or so, plenty going on had friends over last night and a BBQ at my dads today.

Anyway, I'm not sure how to read this one however:

Youre calling four people scum, ergo, you should have no issue voting for any of them, but you dont vote for them, why?

I didn't read it as him calling the 4 people listed scum, just that he was suspicious of them or had question marks next to them, this seems like a bit of a misrep?

I need to do some more read throughs, i've read the cases from both swift and yabba but have yet to read all the links to other posts and such and feel i need to do so. Yabba himself still doesn't read as scum to me with what i've read so far though, I'm not sure i particularly agree with his case but it seems to come from a sincere place.

[Internet Stranger]

I think that's a scum error - that simplified the game for me.

So now...

›

yabbaguy - hello!

›

Internet Stranger - As much as I went to fencesit, I just know that he's Town. Why would he start, arguably, the first major squabble of the game when nothing was going on if he was scum? Also, inkling that he's telling the truth and that he wouldn't have let Empking be the kill.

›

SomeRandomGuy - Why isn't he dead? But I'd like to believe that he genuinely thought he was lynched, that was super convincing that he just stayed online well into midnight for him and blathered on.

›

PeregrineV - obviously Town-tunneling. Classic symptoms.

›

FightingShadow

- enter the WIFOM - this was Emp's favorite person to wagon on. But I think when he makes attacks on other players, it's really more to just attack and point out what they're doing wrong, but I don't see him really hunting.

›

Rikana - obviously Town-tunneling. Classic symptoms.

›

Swiftstrike

- Feels off somehow. Maybe it's just that his scumhunting aggression is sub-par.

›

Locke Lamora

- gigantic question mark.

›

Sky

- gigantic question mark.

No vote yet.

SRG, we arent fucking idiots. Read the damn list. READ IT.

If everyone non-orange on the list is obv TOWN, then what the fuck are the ones in Orange? This isnt kumbaya town where we all frolic in flowery fields and ride unicorns. Yabba is clearly trying to off-lead and insinuate and push people to do his bidding without getting his hands dirty. That bullshit White Knight asshattery.

So if all the non-orange people are supertown, then what do to about Orange people? Wait for someone else to pick up the ball first. THAT is Swifts argument. What the fuck is Yabba waiting on? If his reads are so good for Yabba to be flailing about now, then Yabba could have and should be voting for people on this list.

Yabba is full of shit.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Yeah, somehow i didn't read the 'obv town' bits or at least forgot of them (i often see that as white noise). In his defence on not putting a vote down however, that's still 4 with likely only 3 scum in the game i'd probably have wanted to rid myself of some of the vagueness in thoughts first too. However it seems like finger pointing with little involved. I'm actually a little concerned that the low posters for the most part are the ones coming under fire, it seems really odd that we've had low posters killed by the scum and it seems like we're being directed toward them - whilst i'd like to hear more from them and don't think Sky is looking good right now it seems like a bit of 'easy lynch' foder to point us toward them.

I had 3 hours sleep last night, so expect little from me in the coming few hours I'll get out some real content and actual cases tomorrow.

[Swiftstrike]

Why no vote yet yabbaguy

? If you have it narrowed down to an group of 4 players to hold the scum in then

why not vote now

. Let's say you voted for me and got the mislynch then if scum are certain in the rest of the group of 4 then you still can just lynch off the rest of the players in the remaining days, (under the assumption it is 3 scum game). So I can't understand that if your town with a good certainty as to where the scum is

what is the hesitation

?

But that is my point,

your net seems extremely to tight

and strangely only included lower posters if we are to believe scum come from the orange group you highlighted, then it means that town have been driving wagons that have lead to the lynch of town. Now that is possible but if you look at the people who got lynched and killed it seems weird that most of them have been lower posters too. (with the exception of bristep). This just seems not right so I wanted to see why you where

narrowing down a list so far but holding back on the push

.

You've now completely changed the intent of that question. You asked me in that last post that I had four names in the orange that could've all been lynched, and had I contained the scumteam, it would've been all over. You were not at any point asking me whether I was tightening my dragnet too much. You asked me in the first post "you're confident enough - why not have a go?" and in the second "you're too confident - doesn't that seem unlikely?"

You are lying to me right now.

You are lying very poorly to me right now, and you've just outed yourself as obvious scum.

The first post

states

I should really be voting if I were Town. The second post states I really ought to reconsider who I'm about to vote.

How can the first post be doing what the second post claims it's doing?

LIES

first post is a QUESTION not a statement it's easy to notice because it starts with WHY and ends with a ?

Let's looks at contradicting STATEMENTS shall we without the fluff attached

›

Internet Stranger -

I just know that he's Town.

›

PeregrineV -

obviously Town-tunneling.

Classic symptoms.

›

Rikana -

obviously Town-tunneling.

Classic symptoms.

LOOK CERTAINTY

Remember that my previous list had shades of red - but here I'm showing uncertainty.

OH NO IT ISN'T

I simply threw the list together as a mass of uncertainty really, I put Town names in there because they were based on Towntells I had seen before or what makes sense. Saying IS is Town is HARD after all the malarkey he's done this game, so it's more me trying to convince myself.

NO IT REALLY ISN'T an UNCERTAIN LIST BUT REPEAT THE LIE ENOUGH AND IT MIGHT BE BELIEVED, AND IF SAYING INTERNET STRANGER IS TOWN IS HARD THEN HOW IS THE CERTAINTY THERE, RATHER THAN THE UNCERTAINTY YOU CLAIM TO HAVE?

NOW EVERYONE LOOK AT THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT AND EXPLAIN TOWN MOTIVATION BEHIND IT

You get no reply to any of your blathering that I'm scum until this gets cleared up.