NY136: The Death of ReaperCharlie (GAME OVER, Town win!)

[David Xanatos]

Was Mastin mod-confirmed N2?

[Iecerint]

I believe so, yes. My recollection is that:

1. Meransiel was nigh-confirmed D2, cuz he tracked me to SensFan.
2. I was nigh-confirmed D2, cuz I killed a scummy townie and the SK had a different flavor.
3. Mastin was mod-confirmed D2, because he did a silly gambit to out the SK, but it backfired and then he had to confirm himself.

[David Xanatos]

Just checked, yeah, he was.

As I said, a CT is only a threat as far as their reads are correct, and as I've shown, with MBL that high on his "Town" reads, he would be no threat there. If we assume Hydra as the second (I'm not accusing you, yet.) then it reinforces the point.

Speculation about RC below

If the RC got lucky, they may have known who the Doc was N2.. meaning they could RB him and shoot Mera.. it's speculation, as I said, but CTD is quite intelligent.. following the pattern on scanning the most threatening to see if they're PR, especially if it's a day-scan, would have reasonable odds of going for him.

[David Xanatos]

Hmm.. CTD replaced in mid-late D2. That detracts from my theory somewhat.. will need to look at the person he replaced in for.

[Iecerint]

How does Gunsmith "fit my predecessors play"?

Flavor cops have a harder time interpreting their results than normal Cops. Hence, downgrading your results to flavor cop results can justify prior slot-holders not moving on the guilty result.

Doesn't work here because the presumed-only town gun-holder was outed early D2.

It is possible that misunderstanding the normal rules may have led to flavor miller or insanity caution (I mean, we have to posit poor play either way, so...).

P-Edit: How did you learn that you were roleblocked?

[David Xanatos]

Strike that. Although Hrezs did make a few pokes at MBL for asking questions and supplying little content, I don't see anything that would mark him as a particularly major target for a scan..

PEdit: I got "No Result" on my scan on Yos.

[David Xanatos]

And as I said, I wanted to try and get MBL to dig a hole for himself with a claim. Anything that didn't fall under a role that would carry a gun would instantly confirm him as Scum.

And to be quite frank, I have no idea about the rules regarding normal/large/theme games on this site. Fairly new here and in honesty I've not bothered looking them up. I should probably do so, but it's a learning experience.

[Iecerint]

I think it is probably true that you did not know the details of the rules regardless of your alignment. I've been here for some time, and I frankly didn't know many of the specific rules, either. I mainly play Theme games.

[David Xanatos]

I'm just enjoying my time mostly coming in as a replacement. I find myself lurking towards the start of games through sheer lack of anything productive to say.. but when I drop in as a replacement, there's a load already there to look at. It also makes mod's lives easier, which is a bonus.

Anyway, that's beside the point. The point is, lynch MBL, get a claim at the very least, he's been avoiding it for too long. He's carrying a gun and there's a childerkins corpse because of him!

[CrashTextDummie]

I've done some rereading and I remain unconvinced of Xanatos claim. I have two main problems right now:

1. Most of what I heard in defense of it, from Xanatos and Yos, is "why would I/he do [this] as scum?", and the arguments that came in the form of "this is why I did [this] as town" crumble under scrutiny. I really don't care for that first line of reasoning - I don't know what roles the scum are playing with, I don't know who they all are and I therefore can't divine what purposes scum-Xanatos would have for his antics. For all I know, he could just be fucking with us because his team is thoroughly outconfirmed. I'm not gonna dismiss a play that doesn't make sense for a town player to make, just because on the surface, it doesn't make sense for scum either.
2. Ever since he claimed, Xanatos has almost exclusively argued in defense of himself, why he should be trusted, why lynching him would be bad, he's thrown everything but the kitchen sink, really, concocting theories so nonsensical and poorly reasoned that I find it very difficult to believe that even an inexperienced player would suggest them in earnest. The one thing he hasn't done is present any kind of case against MBL beyond "he's guilty". This is a point against him that not only applies to his D3 play (where he barely mentioned him despite allegedly having a result on him), but today as well in my opinion. He has acknowledged that his claim goes against the town-read the majority of players have had on MBL, and yet he does nothing at all to try to convince us of MBL's guilt beyond giving us his word and repeated pledges of his upstanding nature. What I would expect from a pro-town player in his position would be a case

against MBL

, not for own innocence. It feels incredibly counter-intuitive for him to go into complete defense-mode when he should be driving an attack.

I'm about ready to lynch him, but I want to adress some Yos related stuff before dropping my vote. And I do want MBL to claim before all is said and done.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm vanilla.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_6DEctiNSs
Relax and enjoy yourselves some grunge, or fast forward to 1:36 .

[CrashTextDummie]

And as I said, I wanted to try and get MBL to dig a hole for himself with a claim. Anything that didn't fall under a role that would carry a gun would instantly confirm him as Scum.

If this were at all true, that you consciously concealed the true nature of your role in an attempt to trap MBL, why does the draft of your roleclaim, allegedly written to be posted yesterday, clearly state that you are a Gunsmith? You are flailing, IMO.

[Yosarian2]

Hence, even if you have some kind of point I'm not understanding in the fakeclaim-cop gambit talk, the utility was pretty marginal because the vig was already out.

There are other roles other then vig that show up as having guns to a gunsmith, you know. If someone claims gunsmith and claims to have seen a gun on you, you can also claim cop or something. At the very least, then you get into a big meta argument about "is it possible for there to be both a cop and a gunsmith in a large game" blah blah blah, and who knows what'll happen.

It's always much better if you can actually get the person to claim before you do if you're a gunsmith with a "gun" result. And I think that's what Xantos was trying to do:

Claim. Right now.

You want to accuse me of lying, claim your role, and I'll reveal full details of my own.

This was before he changed his claim to gunsmith.

This raises another point. If Xantos is a mafia goon, then how did he know he wasn't going to get counterclaimed by a real cop or other info role? Personally, I'd normally assume there'd be more then just a tracker as far as town info roles go in a large normal game. On the other hand, as a gunsmith, it makes sense to assume he's the only town info role left.

And this is before we have to explain people lurking to replacement in a slot that has a guilty on someone. <_<

Not so much "lurking" as "never actually playing the game at all and then flaking out". Also, not "people"; Pine is the only other one who was in the slot after the guilty, although MBL misrepresented the facts to imply that both earworm and pine failed to claim the result.

[David Xanatos]

You already have the Town argument.

It didn't make sense for me to claim D3 when there was a built wagon on someone I was suspicious of (Shanba), because it would divert everything to MBL, and pour focus onto me, thereby forcing a Doc to choose between protecting the Vig claim and protecting me. That gives Scum/SK a nice opening to shoot at the one they think would be unprotected. Upon KJ's Doc claim, I was preparing the draft claim, but held back to consider it while I slept/covered some coursework. By the time I came round again properly, I was distracted by Yos, then you counterclaimed. Yes, I should have claimed then. I didn't. I made a mistake, fair dos. However, from that point, a KJ lynch was apparent. There would be no reason for him to fakeclaim as Town, so to reveal MBL would have simply put me on the target list. During the night I went for a scan on Yos, getting a "No Result". I claimed a Guilty on MBL at the start of today to draw him into a claim, because anything other than "Townie with a Gun" or similar would have been instantly discounted by my read.

PEdit: That was the reasoning for my Cop claim at the start of today. Not yesterday.

Ask yourself, why would I have went to the effort of actually posting a screenshot of the times of the saved drafts? That was an effort to prove my point. (Which admittedly, I didn't know counted as against the rules, but nonetheless..)

I've put out my reasoning, and frankly, I'm at a disadvantage having replaced in, precisely because if I was around on D2, you can be damned sure I'd have done a lot more poking and prodding against MBL. Noone bothered actually challenging the fact he's essentially sat back and done nothing but ask questions this entire game, offering few solid opinions and generally being content to let Town hound amongst themselves. Take a look at the blatant vote anchoring on day 1 on Parama, (Despite posting a sizable analysis on AlmasterGM, and threatening to vote him in #487, and completely ignoring the retort in #511.), he then lurks through D2, paying minor lip-service to the Mastin wagon before he claims IC, and then jumping on squarely in the middle of the heavily Mastin driven wagon on Parama.. and day 3..

literally does nothing

. Oh, and at the same time, berates Town for not voting in #1172.

So. You realistically have a choice here.. the claimed Vanilla with questionable voting practice, which is the only power Vanilla have, or the claimed Gunsmith with a Guilty read on said claimed VT.

[Yosarian2]

2. Ever since he claimed, Xanatos has almost exclusively argued in defense of himself, why he should be trusted, why lynching him would be bad, he's thrown everything but the kitchen sink, really, concocting theories so nonsensical and poorly reasoned that I find it very difficult to believe that even an inexperienced player would suggest them in earnest. The one thing he hasn't done is present any kind of case against MBL beyond "he's guilty". This is a point against him that not only applies to his D3 play (where he barely mentioned him despite allegedly having a result on him), but today as well in my opinion.

How is that a point against him at all?

When you're a cop, and you claim a guilty on someone, your only job for the rest of the day is to convince the town that they should trust you and not the person you have a guilty on, so they lynch the scum instead of you. That's 100% typical cop behavior.

The thing about him "not making any other arguments against MBL" isn't a point against him, either. He's a cop with a guilty. Why would you expect him to make any case other then that?

I'm about ready to lynch him, but I want to adress some Yos related stuff before dropping my vote. And I do want MBL to claim before all is said and done.

You don't need worry about me. Xantos already confirmed that I don't have a gun, so no matter if you lynch Xantos or MBL, once we know for a fact that Xantos is town, I'm 100% confirmed town. If I'm wrong and Xantos flips scum, then it's different, but either way it makes no sense to worry about it until we know Xantos's alignment.

Frankly, with me confirmed town, 2 neighbors confirmed town, confirmed town vig, and you semi-confirmed, we probably win no matter what at this point, no matter if you lynch Xantos or MBL. Still, I'd really rather we lynch the scum today, just to be safe.

[David Xanatos]

I didn't confirm you.

I got "No Result". Hence my knowledge that I was roleblocked..

[David Xanatos]

That is to say, I got "No Result" as opposed to "Guilty", or I presume, "Innocent". It wouldn't make sense for the opposite of "Guilty" to be "No Result".

[CrashTextDummie]

The result you got on MBL was "guilty"? Not "has a gun"?

[Yosarian2]

That is to say, I got "No Result" as opposed to "Guilty", or I presume, "Innocent". It wouldn't make sense for the opposite of "Guilty" to be "No Result".

Oh, I see. I misread that.

Well, it often is for gunsmiths/trackers/ect. For some mods, you either get a result, or no result, with "no result" possibly meaning either "no gun" or "roleblocked", depending. But that's usually mods that would say "gun found" vs "no result", so, yeah, that likely means you got roleblocked. Darn it.

Well, you might as well check with the mod, anyway.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh my god, can we just fucking kill him already?

[David Xanatos]

CTD > Semantics really, the wording was "Has a Gun" but I've used them interchangeably, given that in the context of my role, they mean the same. I'd still presume that the opposite would be "Does not have a gun" or "You did not find a gun".

[David Xanatos]

9. Do not quote any mod communication or anything which originated outside of the game thread.

I've already recieved a warning for the screenshot.. I'd rather not risk a modkill by explaining in detail. After the game's over, I can clear up why I'm using them interchangeably.

[CrashTextDummie]

No, not semantics. Your whole argument that you tried to "trap" MBL hinges on the fact that "has a gun" and "guilty" are

not

interchangeable, and the whole point of that post was to evaluate the exact wording of what you claim to have gotten vs. what one would expect to get. It's pretty evident that you mixed up your fake-claims just now.

vote: David Xanatos

Iecerint, please shoot Yosarian.

[David Xanatos]

I'd ask that you unvote while I await the results of a PM to the mod.

[CrashTextDummie]

unvote