NY136: The Death of ReaperCharlie (GAME OVER, Town win!)

[David Xanatos]

There's surely a line between things like reads, and actual mechanics though. The only way I could prove the situation would be to quote my Role PM, which is explicitly against the rules. I was actually inquiring whether I was even allowed to mention the issue, since it was from the PMs. As I said, you'll see it all after the game ends.. and I'm still waiting on hearing exactly what DH will do to match CTD's hat eating, since he's so sure.

[David Xanatos]

But regardless. Either or both of you, what're your thoughts on the vote harbouring D1, middle-ground bussing D2 and complete lack of a vote while complaining about Townies not voting D3? Not registering at all for you?

[ToastyToast]

Sorry I've been gone! Catching up.

[ToastyToast]

Well, technically I've already read so...

So people were voting DX, he says something about mod PM's, and then....nothing important.
Meh.

MBL and DX IS a 1v1, I just need weigh the threat of the roleblocker thing. Keeping DX alive over MBL means that if MBL does indeed flip scum we'll have both an investigative role and a killing role....

Merr I've been torn over the two TBH...@DX: How long have you been playing mafia/do you have a history of witholding results?

[David Xanatos]

Toast > On and off for a couple years, and yes and no. I've always been taught that revealing with only 1-2 reads is incredibly bad value for the claim.. unless it comes down to the last couple of days. In terms of observer roles, I hold back any results I get unless the person claims something else.. I'll then make a spot decision on whether to reveal to prove them a liar.

In this case, as I've explained, the decision to withhold was mainly based on my suspicion of Shanba, and then the counter-claiming of KJ. I basically took a gamble that I'd be under the radar enough to survive the night and get another read, making my reveal a little more valuable.

[ToastyToast]

If you had gotten a cop read on MBL, would still have with-held that?

[David Xanatos]

A Cop read.. in honesty, probably. As I said, I've always been taught that revealing with less than 3-4 reads as a Cop or variant isn't worth it, barring special circumstances. It makes you a target for kills/roleblocks and essentially shuts you down.

[MrBuddyLee]

Noone bothered actually challenging the fact he's essentially

sat back and done nothing but ask questions this entire game

, offering few solid opinions and generally being content to let Town hound amongst themselves. Take a look at the

blatant vote anchoring

on day 1 on Parama, (Despite posting a sizable analysis on AlmasterGM, and threatening to vote him in #487, and completely ignoring the retort in #511.), he then

lurks through D2

, paying minor lip-service to the Mastin wagon before he claims IC, and then jumping on squarely in the middle of the heavily Mastin driven wagon on Parama.. and day 3..

literally does nothing

. Oh, and at the same time, berates Town for not voting in #1172.

So. You realistically have a choice here.. the claimed Vanilla with questionable voting practice

This is pretty over-the-top mischaracterization, in my opinion, but it's not my opinion that matters at this point. To call me a follower instead of a leader of the Parama lynch is a flat-out lie. I spotted irregularities in saporo's play that led to her lynch. If Yos is scum, I believe my three strongest pushes in this game were against anti-town players.

I won't take your attacks on my scumhunting ability personally, considering you really don't have a choice at this point. And I hope you did well on your test.

[DemonHybrid]

10. Unsportsmanlike conduct (or the appearance thereof) can and will get you modkilled or force-replaced, if it is excessive.

I'm 95% sure that faking mod interactions would be considered pretty high up in the list of "unsportsmanlike conduct". It would also rate pretty highly in "things that are likely to get you blacklisted".

No, it wouldn't.

[ToastyToast]

A Cop read.. in honesty, probably. As I said, I've always been taught that revealing with less than 3-4 reads as a Cop or variant isn't worth it, barring special circumstances. It makes you a target for kills/roleblocks and essentially shuts you down.

You know, I believe you but completely disagree with you. A dead unclaimed cop is much less useful because he never had a chance to get any reads.

[Amrun]

VC4.2

(0) DemonHybrid
(2) David Xanatos - MrBuddyLee, DemonHybrid
(0) Iecerint
(0) CrashTextDummie
(2) MrBuddyLee - David Xanatos, Yosarian2
(2) Yosarian2 - Hydra
(0) Hydra
(0) ToastyToast

Not Voting: Iecerint, CrashTextDummie, ToastyToast

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: Friday, August 19, 11pm EST

Spoiler: Vote History

DemonHybrid - Yosarian2 > unvote > David Xanatos > unvote> Yosarian2 > David Xanatos
David Xanatos - MrBuddyLee
Iecerint -
CrashTextDummie - David Xanatos > unvote
MrBuddyLee - David Xanatos
Yosarian2 - MrBuddyLee
Hydra - David Xanatos > Yosarian2
ToastyToast -

If there are any mistakes, please let me know.

2dit: Fixed DH's vote.

[DemonHybrid]

^ I'm on David.

[CrashTextDummie]

I still think Xanatos is flailing scum. I don't see any way his claim of ambiguity in the mod communication could be true, seeing as he settled on having received "has a gun" when called on his slip, which would have been really cut and dry if true. He's obviously squirming, changing his story every half page. And the only thing I'd consider unsportsmanlike behavior on the last page are the personal attacks against DemonHybrid.

vote: David Xanatos

[David Xanatos]

At the risk of punishment, I'll spell it out.

My expected results, as defined by the role itself, would be "Guilty"/"Innocent".

The result I actually got through was "Has a Gun".

[Yosarian2]

No, not semantics. Your whole argument that you tried to "trap" MBL hinges on the fact that "has a gun" and "guilty" are

not

interchangeable, and the whole point of that post was to evaluate the exact wording of what you claim to have gotten vs. what one would expect to get. It's pretty evident that you mixed up your fake-claims just now.

vote: David Xanatos

Iecerint, please shoot Yosarian.

No, you moron, Xantos flips pro-town gunsmith, which it's INCREDIBLY obvious that he will to anyone who's actually reading the game, Iecerint is going to shoot MBL, and then wer'e going to lynch Hydra tomorrow. Then, if the game's not over, you're probably the last scum, especially if MBL flips scum rolecop.

[Yosarian2]

I don't really get how anyone in their right minds could think Xantos is scum at this point. If someone wants to explain to me how ANY of this makes ANY sense from a scum point of view, then please do, because he just seems increasingly town to me the more you guys badger him.

[CrashTextDummie]

Yos, I do NOT appreciate being called a moron for voting a player who's so obviously lying his ass off even the fucking blind can see it. A gunsmith gets "has a gun"/"doesn't have a gun", NOT "guilty"/"innocent", THAT does not make any sense. It's the whole point of the fucking role. Xanatos is asking me to believe that the mod fucked up in his role PM when the obvious solution to this mystery is that he simply forgot that he fakeclaimed gunsmith, not cop, when he made that post.

I will not accept an MBL lynch today. A DX/Yos/Hydra scumteam wins outright if they either have a roleblocker or if Xanatos has NK-immunity. And seriously, stop with the browbeating and the insults.

[David Xanatos]

Look, if you need some other way of thinking, suppose you lynch him, and I'm telling the truth, you lynch Scum. Good outcome.

If however, I'm lying, you lynch a town Vanilla, and you lynch me the next day, guarenteeing a Scum lynch.

Let's suppose you lynch me, and you're wrong. You lose Town Power, and Scum lives another night. (PEdit: And an MBL/Yos/Hydra scumteam wins instantly, I can spin the Wine too.)

If you lynch me, and you're right, congratulations, you may have protected a vanilla townie.

The only difference is when I get lynched if I'm Scum. If I was in a 3 man scumteam, why would I have come out with a claim, because I wasn't suspected.

If there were 3 Scum versus 5 townies, that means all Scum need are 2 votes on a Townie and they can hammer and win, all by themselves. There would be no logic in claiming at all today, because you could literally just sit back and wait for 2 Townies to stack up on another, and jump on the wagon.

[CrashTextDummie]

And an MBL/Yos/Hydra scumteam wins instantly, I can spin the Wine too.

Except no one in that hypo-scumteam is trying to force a lynch on you by gambitting.

The only difference is when I get lynched if I'm Scum. If I was in a 3 man scumteam, why would I have come out with a claim, because I wasn't suspected.

If there were 3 Scum versus 5 townies, that means all Scum need are 2 votes on a Townie and they can hammer and win, all by themselves. There would be no logic in claiming at all today, because you could literally just sit back and wait for 2 Townies to stack up on another, and jump on the wagon.

It was pretty obvious that you and Yos were first in line to be lynched/vigged. Both neighbors agreed on this plan, and both Iecerint and myself had expressed strong town reads on MBL and Hydra previously.

[David Xanatos]

So I take it I'll get a rather nice video on youtube of you eating a hat when I flip Gunsmith and MBL flips Scum?

You still haven't bothered mentioning if you even looked at the MBL notes I put forward. You demand me to make a case beyond my role, and you apparently haven't even read it. Poor show.

[CrashTextDummie]

Again with the browbeating.

I did not demand you make a case against him, I noted that you not making a case against him was scummy in my eyes. By the time I read it, you had already screwed up with the "guilty/"has a gun" post, so suffice it to say that it didn't sway me.

[David Xanatos]

Browbeating? Far from it. I'm simply verifying that you intend to follow through on your original declaration. Hardly an attempt to intimidate.

And for all intents and purposes, you did. You went off on a rant about how my defense of my role and stance was somehow scummy, despite the fact that the primary concern of a Cop variant is to convince Town that he is both what he says he is, and Sane. Sanity is not an issue here (Although having read through the Normal ruleset, Millers are, so I was right to be concerned on that front.. but MBL's VT claim nullifies that need), so my main concern is to have Town follow through on my scan.

And again, confusion in the Role PM/Actions recieved. The wording in the PM was Guilty, and in the Actions Recieved it was Has a Gun.

And I note you've completely ignored my scenario analysis. Way to tunnel.

[David Xanatos]

Anyway, PS3 broke last night, taking it into Town since I still have the guarentee. Won't be able to respond for a while.

[MrBuddyLee]

You demand me to make a case beyond my role, and you apparently haven't even read it. Poor show.

I read your case on me and gritted my teeth. You basically said I haven't scumhunted this game, which is a load of crap. The only other person who accused me of not scumhunting in this game was the SK, who I lynched after I lynched the scum (Parama) she was bizarrely protecting.

I recently got lynched as town in Shanba's Frogs game for finding two of the scum. Scum drove the lynch. It was annoying, but we still won the game.

My townmates and I found the last three scum in Patrick's Oldy, basically at lynch or lose. Bam bam bam. I tried to discourage the lynching of a townie (HackerHuck), but they lynched him anyway. We still won.

I've actively discouraged the lynching of Shanba (town) and DemonHybrid (probtown) this game. I pushed for the lynches of Parama, saporovirus and to a lesser extent Yos. (And now Xanatos.)

It feels oily to compare my play to the play of others, so I'll leave it at this generality: my play this game has been significantly more pro-town than that of earworm, Pine, Xanatos or Yos. For you to insinuate otherwise, Xanatos, is ridiculous, especially to insinuate such in comparison to the way your scumteam has played. For example, here's all Yos said about Parama D1:

On a side note, Parama's most recent posts are somewhere between useless and terrible. Post better, give better answers to PJ's questions. Not really happy with you right now.

That is the definition of scum pissed off at their scumpartner.

And I repeat, Yosarian is the only player earworm did not mention D1, and Yos did not mention or question earworm at all D1 either.

Xanatos is scum, and Yos-scum fits the pattern of pushing townies and selectively ignoring/being ignored by his teammates.

ps. Sorry about your PS3, David. Mine is my baby, and I had to send it back to Sony for repairs a few months ago. Fallout New Vegas killed it off.

edit: Here's all Parama had to say about Yos and earworm:

Yosarian’s been null all game, can’t really think of anything noteworthy he’s done either way

earworm 343 – Something about this post is giving off townvibes.

Again, scum protecting/selectively ignoring scum.

[Iecerint]

I think Xanatos has focused mostly on reasons why he himself is not scum. The focus did not shift to making cases on MBL until after people told him to do it. It's not clear to me that he'd necessarily have a strong MBL-scum narrative even as town, since he replaced in late (i.e. unlike most guilty claim cases, here DX wasn't the one who initially suspected and targeted MBL).

I did get mild town feelings during my back-and-forth with DX. I still think DX is pretty scummy, and MBL is more townie for several reasons, but the fact that DX is the high-risk lynch makes it annoying.