Open 324 - Ninja Mafia (End. No Drama, please!)

[Cobblerfone]

Spoiler: The Cobbler File

Never experienced lurker scum

. Now tell me why you're fishing for what the town finds scummy?

PREVIEW: I had no idea that when I joined Ninja Mafia that it would be so literal.

Why do you play mafia?
For fun, and a challenge.

Why are you not scum?
Cause of my role PM and because of the actions I'll take in the future.

What will you be known for this game?
:shrug:

The bolded is a blatant lie. I was in a game with Cobbler where he was town (My meta analysis will follow my case) and I was scum. My partner was a supernewb and lurked HARD the ENTIRE GAME. I was able to keep suspicion off him for the most part, we swept town [/flex] but the fact remains, he lurked. IIRC, Cobbler even called him out on it a couple times...gotta check my FAX tho.

This has been covered. If other people think lurking is a scumtell I'm not going to be able to convince them it isn't. If I had a lurker teammate (and the game was in the early stages and I wouldn't know if I had one yet or not if I were scum) I wouldn't lie about my own experience, if I really wanted to influence the game I'd simply say that I didn't think it was. Further more, since this is a meta argument, why would I remove an oppurtunity to bus? I love zem buses.

How the [heck] do you have a town read on somebody so large that you can blatantly defend them before page 1 is even over?

I'll tell you once RVS is completely done.

Ooo, maybe looking to gauge reactions from people for some scumhunting? Can't wait...

I don't think it is particularly uncommon to ask about what people consider scumtells. It's actually a good tool for keeping players honest. If you answer one way and then try to use the tell another way later, it's definitely scummy. Any tool that can be used to find inconsistencies is good.

That makes sense.

Too bad

you answered it instead of matt.

Still,

that's a plausible town-motive.

Still,

I'm noting this.

Though,

you also defended me in the same way, so it's less notable.

Unvote

Yeah, I feel like we're already out of RVS so I'll just tell you why I have a town-read on Kcda:

His brashness and how he went and made a FOS in its own little post

. Now this isn't the most clear explanation,

but you see what the heart of the reason is, right?

There are a couple of things I don't like about this post. First, notice how infirm he is on any kind of opinion he might have.

Though,

he could just be intimidated in this big game.

Still,

that doesn't excuse not taking a stance on the matter.

Though,

I guess it could just be d1 paranoia.

Too bad

we don't know who we can trust.

But you see what I'm saying, right?

Second, THIS was what he was withholding from town until RVS was over. That he thinks Kcda is town because he FoS'd someone. Really. Honestly, read it again. I even italicized it to set it apart. WHY would he need to wait until RVS is over to say that? There's no good reason. It reads like it's something he saw some townie do with a town motivation in a different game. It stinks. I don't like it.

The first part is my personality. And again since this is partly meta, I think I'm more brash as scum anyway.

The second part has good reason on my end: If I didn't wait until RVS was over I wouldn't be able to use what I think was a towntell under the circumstances for anyone else. Scum could try to fake it, making it useless.

The largest flaw in KDCA's scumhunting is that he is using my "tone" as an argument as to why I am sided with the mafia.

Then why are you sided with the mafia? I see what Kc sees. I hope I can get a more solid scumread later but now:

Vote: projectmatt

again.

What I don't like about this post (AND Kc's for that matter) is this. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that those four 'getting to know you' questions will help town find scum. Period. Nothing in the content of the questions OR the possible answers will do ANYTHING to help town find scum. Period. Yet they're buddying up early on saying that PM is scum based on his answers. Ridiculous. And Scummy.

Differences of opinion. What makes you think the questions and answers weren't able to do so? Now

you

aren't explaining properly.

REMOVED KCDA RELATED QUOTE

@Maruchan: Please explain your, shall I say, "hyperness"? I know you have a lot of things to respond to,

but it does remind me of a certain scum that also seemed extremely townish. Tomie knows what I'm talking about.

Cobblefone: "Mind-pressure" vote seemed pretty shady, like it was an excuse to not look like sheeping, as others have said. Also, a flag goes up in my head whenever I read this sort of argument. It's clear misrepresentation of someone's words. It's not like actual scum are going to come out and actually say "I'm not scum for that reason." It's not like there is some rule that requires them to make only true statements, so why would scum word something in such a way? And this excuse here uses the same logic. Scum are not required to tell the truth.

Scum-slips are all in the wordings, mate.

Cobblerfone: Scum based off of the wall I posted and his lack of reaction.

Excuse me if I like to keep my posts wider than they are tall. Plus, I knew that if I refuted your case "point by point" it would lead to back and forth tunneling posts.

First of all, bolded is proof positive that Cobbler lied about my first point. He specifically remembers that game (it wasn't long ago.) Tomie was in it too...she was the doctor and I SMOKED her (Sorry Tomie, wish you were still here...this game needs ur uber-detectivity)

As for the italicized bit, he's attempting to justify his lack of defense against a reasonable (in my opinion) case against him.[/quote]

I remember the game. Do you remember

exactly

what happened in the last three games you finished? Because there's two games between this one and Newbie 1116 for me. The italicized is what's happening between you and me right now. And it is friggin' annoying, it's reminding me of my first newbie game. And I hardly use "friggin'".

REMOVED KCDA QUOTES

While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.
----

First of all, what is wrong with 18 pages? Really, I think it's kind of short. More players equates to more pages, I'd imagine. i can't really see why he would be opposed to discussion that helps us find scum and see where everybody's head is at. I have the same problem with Empking's response in support of this. Finding the best possible lynch is always preferable to the easiest or fastest lynch, I believe.

VOTE: Hiplop

To follow my own advice.

So basically, he just created a "legitimate" reason for himself to jump on the hiplop wagon.

Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.

So basically, he's jumping on a wagon that he apparently doesn't even necessarily think is scum.

After my experience with Muffin I'm willing to sheep the Hiplop vote.

And even outright admits it.

1: 18 pages is not "the end". It's the signal that we should start wrapping things up. With 18 players it'll take a few pages to settle down.
2: I'm surprised you didn't call me out on not jumping on Molla instead.
3: I trust Muffin's scumread over my townread.

Reverse WIFOM? Really? Honestly? Those were ALL valid points against you Cobbler, and REVERSE WIFOM is the best defense you can think of?

I covered this. "Anti-scum WIFOM" refers to Quilford's post. That's why there's a dividing-bar there.

While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.

To elaborate: Suppose a goon/roleblocker, the doc, and the watcher all target the cop. Now the Watcher risks exposing the doc and himself, possibly getting the doc lynched and himself nightkilled. We do get one scum lynched, but we lose

two

PRs. Three if you count the cop. And if we have four there's a ninja that makes the fourth useless anyway.

This post is useless. Fluff. Pointless. AND scummy.

Why is it useless? It elaborated on a prior statement.

1. I've seen Day 1s with less players go on for longer. I think the number of pages signifies nothing. The reason we have a certain amount of time is so that we can use it.

And how many of those games ended in a town win? Taking too much time can suck the life out of town.

3. So you trust zMuffinMan, who took about a week to read the thread and apparently can't be arsed to post much more than a scum read on one of the most popular wagons of the day, over yourself?

Enough for a D1 lynch.

@muffin: i think meta is a terrible arguement...

Meta is the best argument.

This is one of the first posts indicating that Cobbler is more interested in lynching than he is in actually lynching SCUM. It's scummy behavior. Why WOULDN'T you want all the time necessary to pick the BEST lynch? You've had misgivings about ALL your reads, you said so yourself that you don't really trust your reads. He's trying to end the day because he knows that town is the most popular wagon and he wants to secure a mislynch.

BECAUSE OF NEWBIE 1116! GAH! THIS IS WHY I AM MAD AT YOU. MY READS ARE NOT LOCKED IN PLACE ONCE D1 ENDS. MY POSTS THIS DAY ARE PROOF ENOUGH.

Is Maru's wagon going to go up? 'cause I'm in if so.

See? And to think if the day was over, you wouldn't have had this opportunity to pick someone more scummy. Now what was all that 'let's end the day already' nonsense?

If his wagon hadn't gone up and instead we had lynched sooner, or if we had lynched him immediately on the next page, you wouldn't have had to have read all of these pages.

Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.

Post 297, page 12. Nothing that appears terrible at first. He got me as a town read, which means that he believes hiplop is town. Pairing us up as scum was pushing us, but calling us both town because of something town I did really makes no sense. Stay tuned for futher contradictions.

@Projectmatt: No, of course it isn't vice-versa. I'd prefer if the people on Hiplop voted you or Maruchan. Or, that's what I wrote in this response, but after I read that exchange between you and Kc,

I think you're town

, meaning hiplop is probably lazy-town (or incredibly weird scum).

Post 397, two posts after Cobbler's "hiplop is town" thing. Just a straight up contradiction after calling hiplop town. Go re-read his "experience" with Muffin. It's on page 16. It makes no sense for his mind to be sporadically changed.

Did I have a town read on you at that point? I'm pretty sure I didn't.

What about that bolded bit? That came directly from one of your posts.

@Projectmatt: I checked my ISO; there is no indication that I thought you were town at that point.

Must not have read post #297. *shrug*

I blame the way he setup the quotes. It made it look like the quote on top was 297 and the bottom one was 397. In fact, once I'm done I'm going to see that actually is 297 and what is supposed to be contradictory.

However, I put zMM as scummier on my list with very similar intentions. The first person to question it, "Hey! You never said zMM was any scummier until just now! What gives?" would prove they are reading the thread closely. This one worked out as intended, and as a result I find Junpei to be all but confirmed town. If everyone really hates how I'm doing this though, I'll stop.

You're saying you did a scummish thing on purpose to find out who's paying attention. Despite the fact that the

mafia would be looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.

I'm not buying it. For one it's anti-town in a way that I can't see town doing, for two it doesn't make any sense at all. Paying attention does not confirm someone as town. Especially since you've already done a "test" that could put the mafia on their toes.

How is coming out with a plan that successfully netted him someone who's by his estimation now confirmed town? And no one even had to die to confirm it! Why are you so against someone reading someone else as town? And further, why do you care how he plays the game? It's not like he tried to derail one of your wagons, or is suspecting you in any way, or did anything to harm town. This is a classic example of exactly what he's talking about. Mafia looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.

Can I not question the method? Again if I said "My muffin had peanuts in it this morning. That means you have to be town." Would you not call me out on it. This is the scummiest point against you.

What's amazing is that he's still alive...and still acting scummy. It's time for him to go guys. Cobbler, it sucks that we haven't gotten to play on the same team yet. Maybe next time bro.

Look at him, being all coy because he

knows

we're not on the same team.

[Cobblerfone]

He is correct about which quote was 297.

[whispersilk]

Whisper: 5 town 2 null 1 scum.

that's it. He couldn't let it marinate He had to post that. PAGE 2.

you see the problem in that right? do i have to explain myself again?

Sorry, would you mind explaining again?

[Cobblerfone]

Whisper: 5 town 2 null 1 scum.

that's it. He couldn't let it marinate He had to post that. PAGE 2.

you see the problem in that right? do i have to explain myself again?

Sorry, would you mind explaining again?

I don't really see scum asking this. Updated town reads list:

stormer

Javert (Town.)

Viscera Eyes

Killerjester (If VE is Scum KJ is town.)

BBmolla (Town.)
Glowball (Town.)

Scumhunter

Junpei (Town.)
Empking (Town.)

zMuffinMan

Hikari Link

projectmatt (Town.)
Whispersilk (Town.)
Kcdaspot (Town.)

[zMuffinMan]

I need to lurk for like another day and then I'm unbusy and can get stuff done. The lack of deadline is terrible for someone that loves procrastinating as much as I do.

I've read VE's cobbler case. There's not much in it I actually agree with.

End of the week tomorrow. Shit getting done then.

[Cobblerfone]

Singersigner got deleted when I was bunching the townreads together. I don't have a strong townread on her. She would be blank.

[Empking]

Now that everyone's said their piece are we able to congeragate around a couple of wagons to have people put their money where their fingers are.

Cobbler: Any reason you can see for that null read?

[Cobblerfone]

Now that everyone's said their piece are we able to congeragate around a couple of wagons to have people put their money where their fingers are.

Cobbler: Any reason you can see for that null read?

You mean singer? The blank reads are null or scum. Mostly null. I don't really see how a null read can be explained.

Singer is slightly townier though, now that I remember their was that thing with Quilford.

[Empking]

I null read can be explained. Is it a case of scummy things & townie things. Lurking. Sheeping. A whole host of things can be responsible for a null read.

[whispersilk]

Question: Is it an absolute certainty that there is a ninja in this setup? And if it's not, then why are you so sure that there is one in this game,

Kcdaspot

? From the 1st post in the game, it appears to me that the role is not guaranteed.

If BB were the ninja, I'm not so sure that the other scum would make themselves so obvious by derailing his wagon all the time.

Kcdaspot

, taking your ninja theory to the next level, can you point out who the possible culprits are exactly?

Also to this:

A. Molla is too scummy on his own to me. I posted a good case and had a good wagon and had it derailed. Wagon deid after going so far. It just seems that no one was bussing molla. Why? he HAS to be sitting on a PR. and what better PR then the ninja?

Isn't it possible that BB is town and that one or two scum did jump on his wagon to try and push a mislynch, but despite you having your case against him, not enough townfolk agreed with you and therefore didn't vote, and that is why your wagon failed? I can't be the only person that thinks your case against him isn't up to scratch. Maybe that's because I've played with him before, but I'd like to think that there are townfolk who have the common sense to see that in this game, like in most games, scum (especially PR scum), don't play the way BB has played in this game; they play it safe, and they fly under the radar. There are what...16 players (18 if you take day 1 into account), 4 of whom are scum; leaving 12 (14) town aligned players. Do you really think that just 4 people (assuming all scum took the risk of derailing your BB wagon) would be capable of achieving that when there are 12 or 14 town players who could have accepted your case and voted against BB? Isn't it more likely that the town simply wanted to vote for a better scum candidate? Yeah, we now know that Maru and hip were town, but back on day one, they (especially Maru) appeared far more scummy than BB. Since then, there are still other players that make better lynching choices. I don't think you can really blame anyone for the failure of the BB wagon. There is simply not enough evidence to lynch him when there are scummier people about.

B. Ray PM and Cobbler. Questions?

Can you back up your claim by showing clear instances of any of them subverting your BB wagon?

[whispersilk]

Have you read my case?

Did you make a case against BB, or are you talking about someone else?

[Scumhunter]

Cobbler, you have no read on me?

[VisceraEyes]

Splendid job Cobbler. Now that you've defended yourself, I won't feel bad when people vote for you anyway. =D

Seriously, enough with the AtE's though. Okay, you're

friggin

mad at me. I get it. If I were scum and caught like you I'd probably be angry too. Actually stating such in thread though is a blatant Appeal to Emotion, and I doubt anyone will be fooled by it.

Junpei, I read your case on Kcda, and I have to say, it's certainly a case. I like it. I read it when you asked what I thought of you when I first joined, and it cemented my scum read on Kcda and my town read on you.

[VisceraEyes]

I find it humorous that my 'silly little tunnel' is one of Cobbler's only reasons to think I'm scummy, yet Kcda has been on BB like white on rice since page 5.

Cobbler, I want all your thoughts on Kcda now please.

[Junpei]

Hm, okay so Cobblerfone, are you conceding that you did indeed contradict yourself by calling PM town and then saying that you never called PM town? I am referring to 297.

[Junpei]

I do like punch and pie. Hmm.

What does this mean?

Answer directly: Did you find VisceraEye's case invalid or not?

Don't specifically point out flaws if there are any (I don't see any big ones) because cobblerfone has to directly fight it, but you have to make a stance.

ScumHunter don't dodge against please, and answer this.

Whisper I was referring to the case I made on kcdaspot.

I still need to sort through cobblers' responses, because I didn't understand his defense when I read through it first, so I'm going to have to again, but I need to post this in case scumhunter sees it.

[VisceraEyes]

Jesus, I just reread Cobbler's defense and it doesn't make any sense. I'm going to go back through and point out why, but I'd like everyone to go back and read my case, read the points I made against him, then go back and reread his defense paying particular attention to what specifically he's defending. I'll hold off on disputing his defense until I hear some opinions.

[VisceraEyes]

Addendum: I'd prefer if no one pointed out specifically why it doesn't make sense if they agree so I can dispute the points myself, being the one who wrote the case, but if there's something glaring that you really feel needs addressed now, by all means go for it.

[VisceraEyes]

I feel morally obligated to reveal at this time that the pie we're packin in this piece is peach and pear. A pleasurable palate experience. And the punch is Tahitian Treat.

[Cobblerfone]

Hm, okay so Cobblerfone, are you conceding that you did indeed contradict yourself by calling PM town and then saying that you never called PM town? I am referring to 297.

I was mistaken. Depending on your definition of contradiction, yes.

If I were scum and caught like you I'd probably be angry too.

I don't get angry as scum; I get nervous, though I try to hide it.

[Man], I just reread Cobbler's defense and it doesn't make any sense. I'm going to go back through and point out why, but I'd like everyone to go back and read my case, read the points I made against him, then go back and reread his defense paying particular attention to what specifically he's defending. I'll hold off on disputing his defense until I hear some opinions.

Ugh.

Quick! Somebody dig me out of here! The tunnel's gonna collapse on itself!

[VisceraEyes]

Hm, okay so Cobblerfone, are you conceding that you did indeed contradict yourself by calling PM town and then saying that you never called PM town? I am referring to 297.

I was mistaken. Depending on your definition of contradiction, yes.

If I were scum and caught like you I'd probably be angry too.

I don't get angry as scum; I get nervous, though I try to hide it.

[Man], I just reread Cobbler's defense and it doesn't make any sense. I'm going to go back through and point out why, but I'd like everyone to go back and read my case, read the points I made against him, then go back and reread his defense paying particular attention to what specifically he's defending. I'll hold off on disputing his defense until I hear some opinions.

Ugh.

Quick! Somebody dig me out of here! The tunnel's gonna collapse on itself!

You mean like, by feigning anger?

For the record, this isn't a tunnel. I've got my eyes on other suspects, as I've already stated several times. I'm taking them one at a time because we can only lynch one of you at a time. A tunnel means all I see is you and I'm ignoring everything else. Perhaps you can point something out to me that I'm ignoring?

YOUR case would be greatly helped if you instead of consistently trying to discredit me, you go out and actually try and find scum for once in the thread. And I mean REALLY look for scum, like you did in our last game. You ALMOST HAD Cym, but I can't fault you for not nailing me. [/flex]

P.S., don't take anything that sounds snarky or assish to heart, I like playing with you Cobbler. Don't change my mind please just because I caught you.

[Junpei]

Viscera, I thought you were going to pick apart Cobbler's retort? How is that coming along?

[VisceraEyes]

Did you miss the part where I wanted people to reread my case and his defense and comment? It's not going to take long, I already know what I'm going to say...I can do it now if you prefer...I just wanted to get some commitments to stances before I did all the work.

[Junpei]

Just realized, Kcdaspot, Whispermilk, Empking and scumhunter all managed to post without making a stance on this topic. I would hate to stall the game to much... I know that Hikari says he can't comment until the weekend, so at most we'd wait till saturday. However how important is getting stances from your opening and his first rebuttal to you in relation to stalling the game?

[VisceraEyes]

Ask and ye shall receive. His case and responses are spoilered out for clarity's sake. Each of his points have a roman numeral that corresponds to my response on the bottom.

Spoiler: Case and Response

Never experienced lurker scum

. Now tell me why you're fishing for what the town finds scummy?

PREVIEW: I had no idea that when I joined Ninja Mafia that it would be so literal.

Why do you play mafia?
For fun, and a challenge.

Why are you not scum?
Cause of my role PM and because of the actions I'll take in the future.

What will you be known for this game?
:shrug:

The bolded is a blatant lie. I was in a game with Cobbler where he was town (My meta analysis will follow my case) and I was scum. My partner was a supernewb and lurked HARD the ENTIRE GAME. I was able to keep suspicion off him for the most part, we swept town [/flex] but the fact remains, he lurked. IIRC, Cobbler even called him out on it a couple times...gotta check my FAX tho.

I)

This has been covered. If other people think lurking is a scumtell I'm not going to be able to convince them it isn't. If I had a lurker teammate (and the game was in the early stages and I wouldn't know if I had one yet or not if I were scum) I wouldn't lie about my own experience, if I really wanted to influence the game I'd simply say that I didn't think it was. Further more, since this is a meta argument, why would I remove an oppurtunity to bus? I love zem buses.

How the [heck] do you have a town read on somebody so large that you can blatantly defend them before page 1 is even over?

I'll tell you once RVS is completely done.

Ooo, maybe looking to gauge reactions from people for some scumhunting? Can't wait...

I don't think it is particularly uncommon to ask about what people consider scumtells. It's actually a good tool for keeping players honest. If you answer one way and then try to use the tell another way later, it's definitely scummy. Any tool that can be used to find inconsistencies is good.

That makes sense.

Too bad

you answered it instead of matt.

Still,

that's a plausible town-motive.

Still,

I'm noting this.

Though,

you also defended me in the same way, so it's less notable.

Unvote

Yeah, I feel like we're already out of RVS so I'll just tell you why I have a town-read on Kcda:

His brashness and how he went and made a FOS in its own little post

. Now this isn't the most clear explanation,

but you see what the heart of the reason is, right?

There are a couple of things I don't like about this post. First, notice how infirm he is on any kind of opinion he might have.

Though,

he could just be intimidated in this big game.

Still,

that doesn't excuse not taking a stance on the matter.

Though,

I guess it could just be d1 paranoia.

Too bad

we don't know who we can trust.

But you see what I'm saying, right?

Second, THIS was what he was withholding from town until RVS was over. That he thinks Kcda is town because he FoS'd someone. Really. Honestly, read it again. I even italicized it to set it apart. WHY would he need to wait until RVS is over to say that? There's no good reason. It reads like it's something he saw some townie do with a town motivation in a different game. It stinks. I don't like it.

II)

The first part is my personality. And again since this is partly meta, I think I'm more brash as scum anyway.

The second part has good reason on my end: If I didn't wait until RVS was over I wouldn't be able to use what I think was a towntell under the circumstances for anyone else. Scum could try to fake it, making it useless.

The largest flaw in KDCA's scumhunting is that he is using my "tone" as an argument as to why I am sided with the mafia.

Then why are you sided with the mafia? I see what Kc sees. I hope I can get a more solid scumread later but now:

Vote: projectmatt

again.

What I don't like about this post (AND Kc's for that matter) is this. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that those four 'getting to know you' questions will help town find scum. Period. Nothing in the content of the questions OR the possible answers will do ANYTHING to help town find scum. Period. Yet they're buddying up early on saying that PM is scum based on his answers. Ridiculous. And Scummy.

III)

Differences of opinion. What makes you think the questions and answers weren't able to do so? Now

you

aren't explaining properly.

REMOVED KCDA RELATED QUOTE

@Maruchan: Please explain your, shall I say, "hyperness"? I know you have a lot of things to respond to,

but it does remind me of a certain scum that also seemed extremely townish. Tomie knows what I'm talking about.

Cobblefone: "Mind-pressure" vote seemed pretty shady, like it was an excuse to not look like sheeping, as others have said. Also, a flag goes up in my head whenever I read this sort of argument. It's clear misrepresentation of someone's words. It's not like actual scum are going to come out and actually say "I'm not scum for that reason." It's not like there is some rule that requires them to make only true statements, so why would scum word something in such a way? And this excuse here uses the same logic. Scum are not required to tell the truth.

Scum-slips are all in the wordings, mate.

Cobblerfone: Scum based off of the wall I posted and his lack of reaction.

Excuse me if I like to keep my posts wider than they are tall. Plus, I knew that if I refuted your case "point by point" it would lead to back and forth tunneling posts.

First of all, bolded is proof positive that Cobbler lied about my first point. He specifically remembers that game (it wasn't long ago.) Tomie was in it too...she was the doctor and I SMOKED her (Sorry Tomie, wish you were still here...this game needs ur uber-detectivity)

As for the italicized bit, he's attempting to justify his lack of defense against a reasonable (in my opinion) case against him.

IV)

I remember the game. Do you remember

exactly

what happened in the last three games you finished? Because there's two games between this one and Newbie 1116 for me. The italicized is what's happening between you and me right now. And it is friggin' annoying, it's reminding me of my first newbie game. And I hardly use "friggin'".

VI)

REMOVED KCDA QUOTES

While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.
----

First of all, what is wrong with 18 pages? Really, I think it's kind of short. More players equates to more pages, I'd imagine. i can't really see why he would be opposed to discussion that helps us find scum and see where everybody's head is at. I have the same problem with Empking's response in support of this. Finding the best possible lynch is always preferable to the easiest or fastest lynch, I believe.

VOTE: Hiplop

To follow my own advice.

So basically, he just created a "legitimate" reason for himself to jump on the hiplop wagon.

Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.

So basically, he's jumping on a wagon that he apparently doesn't even necessarily think is scum.

After my experience with Muffin I'm willing to sheep the Hiplop vote.

And even outright admits it.

1: 18 pages is not "the end". It's the signal that we should start wrapping things up. With 18 players it'll take a few pages to settle down.
2: I'm surprised you didn't call me out on not jumping on Molla instead.
3: I trust Muffin's scumread over my townread.

Reverse WIFOM? Really? Honestly? Those were ALL valid points against you Cobbler, and REVERSE WIFOM is the best defense you can think of?

VII)

I covered this. "Anti-scum WIFOM" refers to Quilford's post. That's why there's a dividing-bar there.

While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.

To elaborate: Suppose a goon/roleblocker, the doc, and the watcher all target the cop. Now the Watcher risks exposing the doc and himself, possibly getting the doc lynched and himself nightkilled. We do get one scum lynched, but we lose

two

PRs. Three if you count the cop. And if we have four there's a ninja that makes the fourth useless anyway.

This post is useless. Fluff. Pointless. AND scummy.

VIII)

Why is it useless? It elaborated on a prior statement.

1. I've seen Day 1s with less players go on for longer. I think the number of pages signifies nothing. The reason we have a certain amount of time is so that we can use it.

And how many of those games ended in a town win? Taking too much time can suck the life out of town.

3. So you trust zMuffinMan, who took about a week to read the thread and apparently can't be arsed to post much more than a scum read on one of the most popular wagons of the day, over yourself?

Enough for a D1 lynch.

@muffin: i think meta is a terrible arguement...

Meta is the best argument.

This is one of the first posts indicating that Cobbler is more interested in lynching than he is in actually lynching SCUM. It's scummy behavior. Why WOULDN'T you want all the time necessary to pick the BEST lynch? You've had misgivings about ALL your reads, you said so yourself that you don't really trust your reads. He's trying to end the day because he knows that town is the most popular wagon and he wants to secure a mislynch.

IX)

BECAUSE OF NEWBIE 1116! GAH! THIS IS WHY I AM MAD AT YOU. MY READS ARE NOT LOCKED IN PLACE ONCE D1 ENDS. MY POSTS THIS DAY ARE PROOF ENOUGH.

Is Maru's wagon going to go up? 'cause I'm in if so.

See? And to think if the day was over, you wouldn't have had this opportunity to pick someone more scummy. Now what was all that 'let's end the day already' nonsense?

X)

If his wagon hadn't gone up and instead we had lynched sooner, or if we had lynched him immediately on the next page, you wouldn't have had to have read all of these pages.

Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.

Post 297, page 12. Nothing that appears terrible at first. He got me as a town read, which means that he believes hiplop is town. Pairing us up as scum was pushing us, but calling us both town because of something town I did really makes no sense. Stay tuned for futher contradictions.

@Projectmatt: No, of course it isn't vice-versa. I'd prefer if the people on Hiplop voted you or Maruchan. Or, that's what I wrote in this response, but after I read that exchange between you and Kc,

I think you're town

, meaning hiplop is probably lazy-town (or incredibly weird scum).

Post 397, two posts after Cobbler's "hiplop is town" thing. Just a straight up contradiction after calling hiplop town. Go re-read his "experience" with Muffin. It's on page 16. It makes no sense for his mind to be sporadically changed.

Did I have a town read on you at that point? I'm pretty sure I didn't.

What about that bolded bit? That came directly from one of your posts.

@Projectmatt: I checked my ISO; there is no indication that I thought you were town at that point.

Must not have read post #297. *shrug*

XI)

I blame the way he setup the quotes. It made it look like the quote on top was 297 and the bottom one was 397. In fact, once I'm done I'm going to see that actually is 297 and what is supposed to be contradictory.

However, I put zMM as scummier on my list with very similar intentions. The first person to question it, "Hey! You never said zMM was any scummier until just now! What gives?" would prove they are reading the thread closely. This one worked out as intended, and as a result I find Junpei to be all but confirmed town. If everyone really hates how I'm doing this though, I'll stop.

You're saying you did a scummish thing on purpose to find out who's paying attention. Despite the fact that the

mafia would be looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.

I'm not buying it. For one it's anti-town in a way that I can't see town doing, for two it doesn't make any sense at all. Paying attention does not confirm someone as town. Especially since you've already done a "test" that could put the mafia on their toes.

How is coming out with a plan that successfully netted him someone who's by his estimation now confirmed town? And no one even had to die to confirm it! Why are you so against someone reading someone else as town? And further, why do you care how he plays the game? It's not like he tried to derail one of your wagons, or is suspecting you in any way, or did anything to harm town. This is a classic example of exactly what he's talking about. Mafia looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.

XII)

Can I not question the method? Again if I said "My muffin had peanuts in it this morning. That means you have to be town." Would you not call me out on it. This is the scummiest point against you.

_______________________________________________________________

I) He missed the mark entirely in defending this point. I was pointing out that he was lying. I don't care who does or doesn't think lurking is a scum tell. The fact of the matter is that he lied to town saying he'd never experienced lurker scum, in my opinion to further his agenda.

II) Whether it's part of his personality or not, it's a known fact that scum, unless they're extremely good, will flounder around and refuse to commit to opinions about even the most trivial of things. In this case, he was floundering around about 'taking note' of something. Seriously? And for the record, someone commenting on their own meta is meaningless because if they're scum, they could just be lying or deliberately leaving out parts.

The second part isn't a good reason at all. First, RVS is RANDOM VOTING STAGE…meaning that even scum aren't trying to 'drop town tells' or anything because everyone's vote is 'random' and it doesn't matter what we do. And furthermore, what's to stop scum from using that 'town-tell' (which, by the way, is still "he FoS'd someone in its own post") the rest of the game? It's nonsense.

III) Go read the questions. I'm not even going to comment.

IV) Actually, yes…I remember what's happened in all the games I've been in, scum OR town. It's part of playing the game…you have to remember certain things in order to be successful. The italicized was NOT what was happening between us right now, you were SPECIFICALLY ASKED to respond to my case, and now I'm refuting EVERY POINT I find invalid in your rebuttal. This isn't a senseless back and forth like Kcda and Glowball, this is a town-member interrogating the FUCK out of scum.

V) Was forgotten and due to laziness will contain instead a lol-cat.

VI) I find it telling that you removed the Kcda quotes in spite of the fact that I left them in there. Why not leave them in there and be like 'WTF are these Kcda quotes doing in a case against me?' My guess? Because you didn't want a connection to be drawn between you and Kcda, but didn't want to be accused of altering my case…so you removed the quotes and indicated specifically that you did so…allowing town to draw their own conclusions.

VII) While it's true that I thought anti-scum WIFOM was part of your defense against those points, the fact remains that you didn't defend against those points at all. For instance, WHY should we start wrapping things up at 18 pages on d1? And how in the hell is admitting that you sheeped Muffin a defense against someone claiming you admitted that you sheeped Muffin?

VIII) And in what way was the original post helpful in any way? It looks to me like you're trying to look like you're contributing when you're not contributing anything at all.

IX) My point was that he was more interested in lynching and ending the day than he was in actually finding scum. Do you see a defense of that point anywhere? All I see is him defending why he wanted to end the day. Nothing about 'No, I thought my read was accurate and was pushing to get him lynched'. Just 'Yeah, I wanted to end the day…and I'm mad at YOU about it! GRRRRRZ AtE GRRRRRZZZ

X) Actually, I would, because these pages would have been taken up with the following day and I'd still have to read them. Because I'm town. That's what town does. Reads the whole thread and finds the most likely scum candidate based on WHAT HE'S READ.

XI) I blame the fact that you were lying to town TWICE. You've been caught in a contradiction. Call it what it is. You told town that you never thought PM was town. You then lied and said that you ISO'd yourself and that in fact you never stated as much in thread. Which was a lie. As I illustrated. I don't care how his QUOTES lined up, you said you ISO'd yourself. That was a lie. How was

I

able to find it when I didn't even say it?

XII) Please, do so. Ask him why he did it that way. Ask him how the fact that he did it that way gave him that read. I'm all about that. But you didn't do that. You called him scummy for it. EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE SAYING HE WAS PLAYING INTO.

Forgive for any tag-fail. I'm posting at work in a hurry so I can get back to work. lmao