[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[izakthegoomba]

Good points, how about this:

1 Godfather
3 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer

(immune to kills OR investigation)

1 Cop
1 Jailkeeper
13 Townies

• Day start
• Serial Killer chooses their immunity upon confirming

A couple of other questions:

How does the SK flip? Just as "serial killer", or with the chosen immunity? I prefer the former.

Does the Godfather have some kind of immunity? Also, if he dies, I guess just any scum can kill?

[Hoopla]

The Godfather is immune to the Cop investigation. We don't really ever use Godfather in the sense of having to perform the kill.

Giving the SK a choice of 1-shot BP or Investigation immunity is probably a more balanced choice. I don't know how it should flip - it's probably largely inconsequential in this setup.

[Hoopla]

Another thought: I think Weak MD should be given another VT to take it to 14 players like Near Vanilla did. Two PR's (especially one's that can die by themselves) is too low for 13p - the town needs security against a town role dying costing them a mislynch.

[BBmolla]

Mayo Clinic is broken as proven in Open 329.

The breaking strategy is explained here.

Izak made a suggestion to include a role blocker, but I'm unsure if that will ruin the spirit of the setup.

The main issue is that massclaim allows vigs to be protected and docs to just train on each other. Thus, the goons and SK get screwed.

A possibility I thought up was instead of having six docs, have 1-3 blues and 3-5 docs.
So:
1 VT and 5 Docs
2 VT and 4 Docs
3 VT and 3 Docs

This would prevent doc train unless all VTs die. The issue with this is the amount of deaths will be increased significantly.

Perhaps make those VTs into 1-Shot Vested VTs and give one of the mafia a 1-Shot Vest?

Thoughts?

Bringing this back up because it's relevent now. Mayo is broken and needs adjusting.

EDIT: It may not be 100% broken, but mass claiming is a viable strategy, so something needs to be changed.

[Hoopla]

Yeah, I don't really know what to do with Mayo, but it needs fixing.

[IceGuy]

*

The New C9

Bin and replace with a C9++ variant.

*

Assassin in the Palace

Not Mafia (informed majority vs. uninformed minority) and broken beyond repair anyway. Bin.

*

Dethy

I really like this setup (or rather, the idea behind it), however, it is broken and very town-favored. Also, setups like this one have a tendency to stifle scumhunting in favor of logic puzzling.
As a replacement, I propose the following 9 player setup:
2 Mafia Goons
1-3 Sane Cops
1-3 Insane Cops
1-3 Paranoid Cops
1-3 Naive Cops

Day start. Generate setup by generating a seven-letter string of S, I, P, and N (every letter with an equal probability) and insert roles as by the letters. Throw out and generate a new string if the setup would be illegal.

*

Mayo Clinic

Swingy, but seems to be somehow balanced. Might be OK for an experimental game.

*

Paris Mafia

If both mimes need to die by lynching, can't town simply win or force a draw every time by no-lynching?

*

Quack Mafia

Add one townie, make it Day Start and make the Mafia Goons Mafia Doctors.

*

Quack Multiball

Not necessary to have both Quack and Quack Multiball. If you want to keep it, same as for Quack Mafia.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Re: Mayo Clinic: I still think adding a docblocker works fine to counteract mass claim strategies and doesn't change the set-up noticeably.

[izakthegoomba]

So you mean,

1 Mafia Doctor
1 Mafia DocBlocker
1 Mafia Goon

1 Compulsive Bulletproof Serial Killer

2 Compulsive Vigilantes
6 Doctors

[BBmolla]

I was gonna argue, but actually, yeah that fixes it for the most part. At least until he dies.

My only concern with changing one role is that it fixes the breaking strategy unless they get lynched/killed d1.

Maybe add a Macho Doctor as well. Or even make one of the Vigs Macho.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That's the set-up I had in mind, yes.

My only concern with changing one role is that it fixes the breaking strategy unless they get lynched/killed d1.

While true in general, I do think it's sufficient here. The breaking strategy just isn't that robust and this way the mafia really do have two outs - the Mafia Doctor and the Docblocker.

[izakthegoomba]

As far as I can tell my suggestion makes it work, but I'd be a bit sad if I was the single Mafia Goon.

[Mr. Flay]

I hate Assassin in the Palace, but it's very popular to just be binned by one thread.

[Magua]

I believe the binning is because Assassin in the Palace's optimal strategy is "Bandwagon the very first vote in a Day, absolutely no talking"

[izakthegoomba]

Yeah, AitP has to go. So long as the town is sensible, you may as well roll dice to see who wins.

[izakthegoomba]

Also, on Picking Simplicity:

As we're talking about Godfathers in the Inv-Immune sense, I think having two ways to give the Cop a false result (Godfather and potentially Inv-Immune SK) is too many for a setup which prides itself on being simple. Four Goons is probably enough to deal with the other factions; if not, give them a Rolecop or RB or something.

[callforjudgement]

Turns out that the week or so of effort I put into breaking Picking Simplicity relied on the SK being bulletproof as well as inv-immune, and it isn't. It was a pity, too; it was quite a nice breaking strategy. (It might still be salveageable, but it seems much less likely to persuade the SK to go along with it than in the bulletproof version.) The strategy itself, incidentally, involved an outed cop with a hidden doctor and SK, with the SK's kills being directed by the town, the cop acting like a Kingmaker-style King that only nominated players who he didn't have results on for the lynch or SK kill, and people claiming before being lynched/SK killed, with VTs occasionally fakeclaiming Doctor with a small probability. The idea is that the cop tries to keep as many confirmed players alive as possible and confirm more, revealing all after the Doctor dies, at which point connection analysis should help catch all the remaining groupscum, and planning to eliminate all the groupscum before the SK gives the SK an advantage compared to town's typical strategy (hunting the SK first), which should be enough to persuade them to go along with it. With the SK not bulletproof, though, the SK's win chances under the strategy become much lower, to the extent that it would be hard to persuade them to play ball unless they were found early.

I wouldn't call inv-immune SK a "false result" for the Cop, incidentally. Innocent is the result that the cop probably wants on the SK in that sort of game, at least in the earlier stages, and he probably won't be alive later.

Like most breaking strategies involving claims, giving the Mafia a Roleblocker tends to be a simple way to break the strategy without changing the game too much in the case where people don't claim. I suppose the minimal change would be a Roleblocker who only blocked Cops, but that's not a trivially simple role…

[izakthegoomba]

A much better way in general is to replace the Doc that would be following the Cop with a Jailkeeper. And an SK is an anti-town role, so an innocent result on one IS a false result, regardless of what the Cop might want.

Does anyone have a problem with this?

4 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer

(1-shot BP OR Inv-immune)

1 Cop
1 Jailkeeper
13 Townies

• Daystart
• Serial Killer chooses to be either 1-shot Bulletproof or Investigation-immune during the pregame
• The Serial Killer's chosen power is not revealed on death

[callforjudgement]

JK is more useful as an investigative than a protective role IMO, so it might make quite a difference to the playstyle. Not sure what it does to the balance, though.

[izakthegoomba]

JK is unlikely to be much use investigating. There's five scum, and even when the JK hits one, there's a good chance that one wasn't killing that night. It's not worth the risk of accidentally stopping a cross-kill.

A Jailkeeper is a bit weaker than a Doctor. It's main function is to prevent Follow the Cop; sure, the Cop can claim and ask to be followed but if the JK does so, the Cop is just a BP Townie.

So I think it's pretty balanced. Maybe I'll do an EV if I get time.

callforjudgement, are you an alt? Or did you play elsewhere or something?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Jailkeeper is probably better off protecting in that set-up, yeah, at least at first.

town's typical strategy (hunting the SK first)

That's not town's typical strategy.

[callforjudgement]

callforjudgement, are you an alt? Or did you play elsewhere or something?

I'm not an alt. I've played quite a bit of Mafia elsewhere, though.

EDIT: Re CES, I believe that hunting the SK first is considered the best town strategy in Picking Simplicity, based on the games of it that I've read. A hidden SK that isn't helping the town is incredibly dangerous; and the SK's optimal strategy is to align fully with the town once forced to claim (and to claim SK, rather than fake-claim).

[izakthegoomba]

But if SK and Town team up and beat the Mafia, what happens next? Happily ever after?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Hidden SKs aren't sufficiently anti-town that one would change their scumhunting strategy - the correct strategy is simply to look for scum. And most SKs will just claim Townie and try to get away with it - claiming SK means you have a negligible chance of winning and that's really only if you've picked bulletproof. The SK would also never fully align with the town - he needs one scum to remain alive right up until the end.

P-edit: no, the town wins and the SK loses.

[izakthegoomba]

So, no SK in their right mind would team up with the town.

[callforjudgement]

An SK who claims VT at L-1 is probably going to get lynched. Almost certainly, in fact. That's never good strategy as an SK.

An SK who claims SK, the town generally makes the following deal: "If you act exactly as we tell you every night, then if the game goes to a 1:1:1 endgame, we'll allow you to win over the Mafia." (With a bulletproof SK, a town win in 1:1:1 is impossible, but town gets to choose who wins.) "If you don't act exactly as we tell you, then if the game goes to a 1:1:1 endgame, we'll let the Mafia win." As town can't win in either scenario (again, if the SK is bulletproof; with a non-bulletproof SK they can use Prisoner's Gambit, no-lynching in the hope that scum will be prisoner's-dillemmaed into a crosskill), they have no reason not to agree to throw the game to a specific faction in advance in order to gain an advantage if the 1:1:1 endgame doesn't happen, and a known SK can only win via a 1:1:1, 2:1:1, or similar unwinnable-for-town endgame. 1:1:1 is also at least drawable with a non-bulletproof SK without Town's help (optimal scum strategy there is to lynch the townie then crosskill each other for the draw; the townie will be obvious as their only chance to win will be to try to force a no-lynch).

If the SK isn't bulletproof, it's possible that they'll consider taking the risk of claiming VT (at L-1 with a threatened hammer) and hoping they aren't lynched immediately, above taking the risk of allowing themselves to be directed by town and hoping for a 1:1:1 anyway; the first option potentially leads to a win, the second at best a draw. That's what I meant by saying that the SK would be unlikely to help town if not bulletproof. However, the reason a player is forced to claim is that they'll be hammered if they don't claim a power role (a player's best strategy if they

won't

be is to not claim at all), so the SK claiming VT seems a bit unlikely there, and in fact I think it's playing against their win condition. They should claim SK, and follow the town's direction until lylo (to avoid being lynched to avoid the erratic SK behaviour), and simply hope that the town's direction of them is bad enough to get to 1:1:1…