[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[izakthegoomba]

That would be really OP.

[Quilford]

does the game end after a fool lynch?

[Junpei]

The Mad Scientist may only compare living players at the time of selection.

The game ends when the fools reaches his win condition, yes.

Izak, that role has been used in other forum mafia games before very well, and although I don't have his brilliance to use it the same, I hardly see the role as OP. If you would like to explain HOW it is OP, then that's another story

[izakthegoomba]

Well, maybe not overpowered, but certainly more powerful than you might be lead to believe. When one person dies, it becomes a cop.

[Junpei]

No it doesn't...

And lets say he investigates person A and B, they're different.

Oh, A is dead and flipped town? Well B is either fool or mafia... hm time to scumhunt and figure out which.

Oh, A is dead and flipped mafia? Well B better hope that Scientist either doesn't out or is forced to CC him. Thing is as soon as scientist outs he becomes a lot less useful and can be roleblocked. The neighborhood in theory should bring much fun to this concept. I don't see any broken happenings/strategies.

[Junpei]

Well B would only hope that if B is fool, which is what I meant. I could do tons of theorizing on the setup, but I see no reason to dissect every possibility when it seems quite sound. Although I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something, I specifically made this setup with the idea in mind of no absolutes + fools the former of which should prevent gamebreaking strategy, and the latter of which should bring my favorite role into the site outside of Paris (a setup I really don't like).

[izakthegoomba]

Yeah, it should be fine in this setup.

The point was, the can-target-dead-people variant is essentially a cop. When one scum dies, the MS can just target that dead scum, and one other player.

[Junpei]

Oh, well then yeah. But I think the reason PrimeIntellect made it so that the role could not target dead people was for that purpose. I mean, that isn't the role for a good reason.

[Whiskers]

Yeah, it should be fine in this setup.

The point was, the can-target-dead-people variant is essentially a cop. When one scum dies, the MS can just target that dead scum, and one other player.

Actually, you'd want to target a town player and another player, because if you target dead scum and you target the fool, You'll get a guilty on the fool, and lynch him.

[Junpei]

Oh, I was thinking like there are three planes of alignment

Mafia
Fool
Village

So investigating mafia and fool yields different. Do you think that's a bad idea?

[Whiskers]

That's fine... but you explicitly said (somewhere?) that when you investigate Fool, it turns results as "same." I took this to mean that fool and X meant "same" result no matter what.

[Junpei]

Oh, that is an idea as well. I actually like that idea a lot. But then it just seems like the role is mostly useless. I feel like putting the Fools on a different plane makes the role more useful and adds more uncertainty. The only unfavorable happening that arises is when mafia and fool are compared, shown different, and then mafia dies. But this is very unlikely, and can be amended with a fool counterclaim. In fact fools may claim this for all the people in the setup know.

I feel like the fact that there are 3 town PRs and effectively 4 people who have some incentive to claim town PR who aren't town balances the extra strength given there, so I find your gimp of it a bit overdone, I guess.

I wasn't very specific in what I meant, so I apologize.

[Whiskers]

That's fine, the gimp of it really is only if the MS can target dead players, which he can't.

Besides, even a fool who is "guilty" has to get lynched on the correct Day, so has to play his cards (and his luck!) right.
Also, the MS might not out for a (seemingly) town lynch. If he gets a scum/fool = different investigation, and the scum dies, then the fool looks town, right? I wouldn't out for that. There are Eight Vanilla Townies, so I'd treat it as a personal clear and move on, and if he's mislynched, then he's mislynched, so be it.

[Quilford]

The game ends when the fools reaches his win condition, yes.

I recommend strongly against this.

[izakthegoomba]

If the game continues after a fool is lynched, there's no incentive for the town to avoid lynching them.

[Ythan]

It's a wasted lynch.

[izakthegoomba]

But no moreso than a regular mislynch. There needs to be extra reason to avoid lynching a fool. And the odd/even day thing means it's not too easy for them to win.

[Quilford]

I'd argue that in any game where the game ends after a fool reaches their win condition the town's day play is severely impaired.

And the odd/even fool lynch mechanic is silly and feels like you're patching up a burst main with band-aids.

[Junpei]

Quilford, I know that it may seem odd, a fool winning the game, but no, this is how it must be.

Fool wins are the most glorious wins in mafia in my opinion, and an odd/even fool win? It takes real skill to pull it off, and the setup paranoia makes it possible.

Yeah towns' day play is injured, but I mean scum get a RB and that's really it, this is a +14 player game with 2 scum, the fools have a place in it.

Izak pretty much expresses my main point; the odd/even mechanic makes the setup very possible and it is not a band-aid fix, although I'm not sure what a 'burst man' is. Quilford, this isn't a 10-3 balanced PR game with a fool thrown in for lulz, this is a setup that was built around the fools. I designed it such that the fools disadvantage to town would be in place, and that the fools would have a hard yet very possible time to win.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Fool wins are the

least

glorious wins in mafia in my opinion

Fixed!

[Junpei]

Fool wins are the

least

glorious wins in mafia in my opinion

Fixed!

I meant fool

wins

, not fool exits with wins(almost the only existence of fools on this site, which is a lame band-aid fix for the role). It will take a lot of skill to win as fool in this setup, and the majority of the time I think that the players will feel like he deserved it.

[izakthegoomba]

Exactly my thoughts. There's definitely nothing wrong with the role. I'm not sure about the rest o the setup, I'll take another look at it.

Junpei, you know HTML doesn't work here, right?

[Junpei]

Yeah, I've just been doing a ton of work for a lot of my classes the past 24 hours, and accidentally used HTML code, I'll edit it though.

[Whiskers]

EDITTING!? ON MAFIASCUM.NET!? IN A FORUM!?

Vote: Junpei.

@Mod: please kill this sucker.

[izakthegoomba]

Whiskers... this is MD...