Mini 1266 - My iTunes Mafia - GAME OVER

[DeasVail]

I know you don't think it's a good idea to defend people.

However, if you are town, I would have thought you would more likely suspect Painted for defending you rather than complain about it and tell him to stop. I asked the question with the hope thast your answer would provide me with some sort of insight.

[Skenvoy]

I wasn't complaining about it, I was telling him to stop. I just did a quick iso of him, and what jumped out at me was that he seems to...almost assume I'm not scum, which, added to the defending, does make me suspicious.

However, I still want to look more closely at the less noisy players. Guttersnipe hasn't voted at all, which is more acceptable that usual considering we got out of RVS in...like...4 posts (which has to be some sort of record), but I'm still not sure what to think on it. Monk (and others have FOSd or voted him based, presumably, on this) votes me without analysis of the situation. The one that catches my eye, though, is metabot, who has posted analysis, but hasn't commented at all on the main conflict.

@Metabot, why didn't you comment on the stuff between me/PFoD/Deas/Slan? And what exactly are your thoughts on it?

[Slandaar]

Sland posts a lot, but not that much per post.

What does this tell you?

[Slandaar]

Oh, and Slandaar, I'd never vote for my scum buddy in RVS. I generally ignore them completely at that stage.

This might be true I dunno, im not going to be taking your word for it though and if it is true, you might want to look into that as its a huge tell.

[Slandaar]

In this post, PFoD basically repeats my earlier argument that scum are probably lying low, but the way he says it reeks of getting attention off himself (and me) - I don't like the way it's posted.

However, I still want to look more closely at the less noisy players. Guttersnipe hasn't voted at all, which is more acceptable that usual considering we got out of RVS in...like...4 posts (which has to be some sort of record), but I'm still not sure what to think on it. Monk (and others have FOSd or voted him based, presumably, on this) votes me without analysis of the situation. The one that catches my eye, though, is metabot, who has posted analysis, but hasn't commented at all on the main conflict.

So, what is the difference? this seems pretty scummy, one rule for one person a different rule for me.

What you have just suggested is literally what Painted said, which you imply is scummy, odd.

[Painted Face of Death]

Nah, my main reason for wanting to out for the game was because I was still in the queue for a newbie, and had just replaced into another game - I figured that if I was in for this game as well, I wouldn't be able to play the newbie. I replaced into another game just before this game started, so the point is void.

For what it's worth, even though Sken got the rules wrong, this reasoning is confirmed by Sken's post before anything happened in this game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p3557691

(The actual rules: If you haven't completed a game on this site, like Skenvoy, a Newbie game has to be the ONLY game you're playing. If you've

completed

more than two games, you can still play a newbie game as a Semi-Experienced player: there are two SEs per Newbie game, more/less if needed. See http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =4&t=16824 )

In any case, since Sken hasn't yet completed a game on this site and is relatively new, I'm willing to accept all this entry/leaving stuff as just trying to figure out the rules.

----

On a separate note, apparently DV and Sken know each other in person or something?

It is only very slight, but I know that Skenvoy expressed interesting in outing this game before role pms went out and I know that she hasn't been scum much recently, so I think that a scum role pm may have encouraged her to stay in.

Skenvoy doesn't like being power roles by the way. At least that's what she's told me. I also know that she has wanted to be in a game as scum, since she has been town a lot recently.

At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum.

You forgot to mention that I like playing vanilla just as much as I like playing mafia - you're right about the power roles.

You guys want to comment on this relationship, seeing as all these games must have been offsite? Are you generalizing from in-person games? That can be a risky business because people can come off very different in writing. I'm kind of suspicious of this argument from private communications.

PFOD, STOP FREAKING DEFENDING ME. I CAN DO IT MYSELF.

At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum. Slandaar's sticking out a lot, and I think scum would play more cautiously at this stage of the game.

Skenvoy, why do you have such a problem with PFoD defending you?

Your town read on me doesn't seem quite right. Why do you feel the need to express your town read on me (twice) and justify it using meta (twice)?

It's probably worth pointing out that I've never defended Skenvoy as innocent, though I have pointed out that one particular thing (asking if she could leave) does not strike me as relevant one way or the other. The whole "stop defending me" comes off as slightly scummy to me, actually. It's very defensive, heh. I agree with DV that the town read doesn't seem quite right, and I don't like that Skenvoy's going out of her way to misrepresent me as defending her.

I'm leaning towards Skenvoy as scum now. I still suspect DV and I'm going to wait and see what responses I get before changing my vote. And still nothing from DJ after his one long scummy post.

Question: after I attacked DV early on, several people jumped on me. Were they "defending" DV? Was that suspicious?

[Guttersnipe]

I swear to God Painted, I want to see you hanged just for being irrational. When someone says something against you your immediate response is to claim suspicion of that person (though in the most recent case with Skenvoy it seems a lot more like conscious distancing), and in addition to that you are unable (or unwilling) to realise that the whole issue of whether DeasVail's original reasoning for voting Sken was reasonable or not is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, and so you KEEP BRINGING IT BACK UP, which is, as far as I can tell, only a good thing to do if you want to waste a lot of people's time (which, imo, is a scum thing to do). When people explain why they think you are suspicious, you seemingly inevitably misconstrue what they are saying and claim that they are misrepresenting you or whatever, and then when nobody agrees with you you're surprised, as though it never occurs to you that it could be

your

reasoning that is flawed.

On that note, Don John's post was excellent. Every problem you pointed out in #62 is based entirely on your own, personal conviction that DV must be scum because he was suspicious of you, and on reason not at all. It's true that no one really called you out and proved your irrationality on each point, but despite that the fact that you now strut around assuming that it's granted that his post was "scummy" is at best irresponsible and at worst malign.

In short it's hard for me to get a read on you because I have difficulty telling the difference between intentionally irrational evil and the irrationality of people who can only experience a self-centered, emotionally coloured perspective, but either way I'm not happy.

Skenvoy: I tend not to vote a lot - is that a thing on this site? I guess the idea would be that scum wouldn't want to leave a trail of votes that could later be analysed to their detriment...? Or is it also that scum would be nervous of putting themselves out on a limb and would therefore wish to gauge reactions before committing to a solid vote?

Ha, regarding that last one, what do you think of this?

"I still suspect DV and I'm going to wait and see what responses I get before changing my vote."

[Slandaar]

no its more to do with town need to use their vote to put pressure on people, to help get reads etc. If you dont vote you are not using your main weapon to scumhunt.

[Noramp]

You can actually see Painted coming to Skenvoys aid like 3 times subtly, there looks like a link there

(Post 34)

@Painted Why did you not address this relatively serious accusation when it first arose but are now defending it tooth and nail?

@Slaandar Did you intend for Painted to address this claim?

[Fennin]

I did not understand why painted couldn't consider the theory, its weak and completely depends on what role she prefers playing and even then it might not even be relevant it might just be she could play for whatever reason, but the reasoning behind its pretty good I mean she could have replaced out if she wanted, so shes seen her role and decided to stay in, ok, thats cool, but there is a slight chance the role helped to make her decision. it completely looked like scum jumping to buddys aid, there was no reason to come out guns blazing against that reasoning.

While this is possible, you forget to point out in your theory that she could have received another active role, on town's side, and wanting to stay in because of it? It seems you are only focusing on her possible scum role.

Skenvoy doesn't like being power roles by the way. At least that's what she's told me. I also know that she has wanted to be in a game as scum, since she has been town a lot recently. I don't why you can't accept that I had a fair reason to slightly suspect someone during RVS.

That's a little bit more solid and fits the theory. I don't know Skenvoy, but I have a bad feeling about this. Now you could be trying to mislead us too. That's why I hate meta-gaming issues.

You guys are arguing over whether Sken and Painted are buddies and focusing on Painted, meanwhile Sken is not getting the attention she deserves.

I disagree. The votes are not telling it but the main subject here is Sken.

PFOD, STOP FREAKING DEFENDING ME. I CAN DO IT MYSELF.At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum. Slandaar's sticking out a lot, and I think scum would play more cautiously at this stage of the game.

The change of style could be done on purpose. Or did you play a lot of games together? Meta-gaming again ... :/

On the other, there are plenty of people, like me, who could be slightly lurking either because of real life issues

or something else entirely

. Thus, to attempt to be somewhat productive in this discussion, I will try to give an objective view on their behavior:

Like what for example? Being scum?

VOTE: Metabot

I'd like to hear more from you. And since you are not V/LA I think you might have time to answer.

[don_johnson]

I swear to God Painted, I want to see you hanged just for being irrational. When someone says something against you your immediate response is to claim suspicion of that person (though in the most recent case with Skenvoy it seems a lot more like conscious distancing), and in addition to that you are unable (or unwilling) to realise that the whole issue of whether DeasVail's original reasoning for voting Sken was reasonable or not is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, and so you KEEP BRINGING IT BACK UP, which is, as far as I can tell, only a good thing to do if you want to waste a lot of people's time (which, imo, is a scum thing to do). When people explain why they think you are suspicious, you seemingly inevitably misconstrue what they are saying and claim that they are misrepresenting you or whatever, and then when nobody agrees with you you're surprised, as though it never occurs to you that it could be

your

reasoning that is flawed.

^^ very much this. its getting a little old at this point and it is difficult to tell if painted's ignorance is feigned. that said, i think my suspicion of painted more or less relies on a skenvoy scumflip. though scum defending town could be an option, i see more scum dfending town towards the end of a wagon and not necessarily fresh out of rvs. with skenvoy doing little to nothing in the way of scumhunting and the wierd defense, i see no reason to move my vote at this time.

the metabot pressure is good atm, so we need a little more from that slot. calling out "lurkers" on page 5 is odd, and meta's preemptive and ambiguous defense of his own absence is just, well, odd. my gut tells me that sken is a good wagon, and if thats the case, meta suspicion could just be a distraction from the real thing, so that will depend on metabots reaction and future content.

painted: the case against sken really has nothing to do with deas earlier vote or reasoning, based on everyones interactions derived from that situation, who do you think is most likely scum and why. please organize your post, perhaps in bullet points, or number your suspects and then letter the reasons. i.e. most liekly scum can be number (1) with reasons (a, b, and c). something like that which will be easier to respond to and also may help you organize your thoughts. i see you have referred to me as "scummy", but i am not sure where you stand, and even after carefully reading your posts, the only reason i can see you presenting is "that post", which is unhelpful because in that post you said i was either "scum or vi" and then went on to agree with a couple points i made while ignoring the crux of the discussion at that time. so if you can expedite you posts(try to avoid quote walls etc.) and give something plain and simple that lets me know where you stand at the current time i would appreciate it.

[DeasVail]

Fennin: Although there are reasons why I think Skenvoy might be scum, a lot of it is because I've played with her before. You said "The change of style could be done on purpose. Or did you play a lot of games together?" That's the thing. We haven't played that many games together and I don't have a very consistent style. By the way, we've played forum mafia on another site.

I obviously don't expect to convince any of you that Skenvoy is scum with meta reasons, but they obviously affect how I think of her.

monk: Still waiting for your response

Painted: I want to know why you suspect me. What you're saying about Skenvoy doesn't have much to do with my suspicion of her. You have been defending Skenvoy, so please don't pretend otherwise. Why do you think Skenvoy is scum? A lot of people think I'm town, so what would be "not quite right" about Skenvoy's town read on me from your perspective?

Don, why do you think that skenvoy is scum?

[Skenvoy]

Oh, and Slandaar, I'd never vote for my scum buddy in RVS. I generally ignore them completely at that stage.

This might be true I dunno, im not going to be taking your word for it though and if it is true, you might want to look into that as its a huge tell.

Yeah, I know. I'll probably change it up sometime, but at the moment I don't think I've played enough games for it to be an issue.

In this post, PFoD basically repeats my earlier argument that scum are probably lying low, but the way he says it reeks of getting attention off himself (and me) - I don't like the way it's posted.

However, I still want to look more closely at the less noisy players. Guttersnipe hasn't voted at all, which is more acceptable that usual considering we got out of RVS in...like...4 posts (which has to be some sort of record), but I'm still not sure what to think on it. Monk (and others have FOSd or voted him based, presumably, on this) votes me without analysis of the situation. The one that catches my eye, though, is metabot, who has posted analysis, but hasn't commented at all on the main conflict.

So, what is the difference? this seems pretty scummy, one rule for one person a different rule for me.

What you have just suggested is literally what Painted said, which you imply is scummy, odd.

I'm not suggesting we ignore the main conflict happening, I just don't want to let the quieter players slide. PFoD's post, at least to me, looked like he wanted attention off him.

Nah, my main reason for wanting to out for the game was because I was still in the queue for a newbie, and had just replaced into another game - I figured that if I was in for this game as well, I wouldn't be able to play the newbie. I replaced into another game just before this game started, so the point is void.

For what it's worth, even though Sken got the rules wrong, this reasoning is confirmed by Sken's post before anything happened in this game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p3557691

(The actual rules: If you haven't completed a game on this site, like Skenvoy, a Newbie game has to be the ONLY game you're playing. If you've

completed

more than two games, you can still play a newbie game as a Semi-Experienced player: there are two SEs per Newbie game, more/less if needed. See http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =4&t=16824 )

In any case, since Sken hasn't yet completed a game on this site and is relatively new, I'm willing to accept all this entry/leaving stuff as just trying to figure out the rules.

----

On a separate note, apparently DV and Sken know each other in person or something?

It is only very slight, but I know that Skenvoy expressed interesting in outing this game before role pms went out and I know that she hasn't been scum much recently, so I think that a scum role pm may have encouraged her to stay in.

Skenvoy doesn't like being power roles by the way. At least that's what she's told me. I also know that she has wanted to be in a game as scum, since she has been town a lot recently.

At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum.

You forgot to mention that I like playing vanilla just as much as I like playing mafia - you're right about the power roles.

You guys want to comment on this relationship, seeing as all these games must have been offsite? Are you generalizing from in-person games? That can be a risky business because people can come off very different in writing. I'm kind of suspicious of this argument from private communications.

PFOD, STOP FREAKING DEFENDING ME. I CAN DO IT MYSELF.

At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum. Slandaar's sticking out a lot, and I think scum would play more cautiously at this stage of the game.

Skenvoy, why do you have such a problem with PFoD defending you?

Your town read on me doesn't seem quite right. Why do you feel the need to express your town read on me (twice) and justify it using meta (twice)?

It's probably worth pointing out that I've never defended Skenvoy as innocent, though I have pointed out that one particular thing (asking if she could leave) does not strike me as relevant one way or the other. The whole "stop defending me" comes off as slightly scummy to me, actually. It's very defensive, heh. I agree with DV that the town read doesn't seem quite right, and I don't like that Skenvoy's going out of her way to misrepresent me as defending her.

I'm leaning towards Skenvoy as scum now. I still suspect DV and I'm going to wait and see what responses I get before changing my vote. And still nothing from DJ after his one long scummy post.

Question: after I attacked DV early on, several people jumped on me. Were they "defending" DV? Was that suspicious?

This post. Jesus, PFoD, you HAVE been defending me at least slightly, don't try to say you weren't. Every time you post a link saying 'Look, I think this means Sken's telling the truth', it's defending. Screw everyone else, I want to lynch this guy right now.

VOTE: Painted Face of Death

And yes, I'm aware that if he flips scum, I'm going to probably be lynched next. But that's cool with me.

[Skenvoy]

Oh, and metabot, Deas and I know each other in rl and sometimes talk about mafia when we're not in games together. We haven't talked since the beginning of this one.

[Skenvoy]

Oh, and PFoD, Deas and I know each other in rl and sometimes talk about mafia when we're not in games together. We haven't talked since the beginning of this one.

EBWOP

[DeasVail]

Skenvoy, why the rush to lynch painted? Why not focus on pressuring on those who you don't have a read on first?

[Skenvoy]

I'm putting my vote on Painted because I'm sick of him defending me when I've asked him to stop. Added to that, the fact that he's saying he didn't.

Okay, if I'm honest, I don't expect him to be lynched quickly. However, that's where I'm leaving my vote for now.

[Guttersnipe]

vote: Skenvoy

[DeasVail]

Skenvoy: ah, so you're vote is because you want to get rid of him and he's annoying to you, rather than because you actually think he is scum. Good to know.

[DeasVail]

*your

[Skenvoy]

*blink* That's not what I said. I think defending is something scum would do more often than town. I do think it's a scumtell, and Painted is looking more like scum to me with every post.

That said, if the vote gets him to stop doing it, it's a pleasant side effect.

(And I totally bet Painted completely turns on me for it.)

[DeasVail]

I'm putting my vote on Painted because I'm sick of him defending me when I've asked him to stop. Added to that, the fact that he's saying he didn't.

Okay, if I'm honest, I don't expect him to be lynched quickly. However, that's where I'm leaving my vote for now.

It was the impression I got from this post

Painted has already started to turn on you, so your message to your scumbuddy was not required.

I know I'm taking a stretch here, but what was the purpose of "(and I totally bet Painted completely turns on me for it)"?

I don't know why you would like it if your vote makes Painted stop defending you. I don't think it will change much.

[J]

I

really really really

dislike the Sken wagon and will probably never jump on there this game without a cop guilty on her. I have too strong of a town-read of her and I doubt much will budge it at the current time. How are people reading her as scum, I haven't the slightest.

Guttersnipe, why are you voting Sken? I thought you said previously that you like to keep your vote close to your chest (which isn't a problem in my opinion, everyone plays their own way) but then after a few posts from her you suddenly change without any rationale behind it. You had more of a rationale not to vote but now that has gone out the window. Can you explain that to me?

@Rest of wagon: Are you looking at the intent behind Sken's posts? Entertain the thought that she is town before you auto-assume that she is scum based on what you read. Her intent is really towny.

Unvote
Vote: Fennin

Your reasoning against Metabot is ick ick ick to me. You are voting him for a word contortion you created by putting words into his mouth in an almost joking matter. You go the entire post saying stuff about how Sken is the person of interest, addresse a few odd posts but don't do much of anything with them. You also say that you would like to hear more from Metabot.....where are the questions to help that? It seems counter-productive to say you want more from him but just leave it at that. What exactly do you wanna hear from him? I don't like that little stick it to him you did based on "Since you are not on V/LA you should answer me."

[J]

*Point to those saying they don't like defending people*

I will defend people I believe are town and not push their lynch and the like because town does work as a collective team to find scum. Also based on interactions with other players, even defending, you can find scum through that. Plus idk, I just have just as much fun defending as I do prosecuting those I believe are scum. *shrug* I don't see a problem with it in my year of playing mafia.

[DeasVail]

Thanks for your posts [J], although saying you'll probably never vote Skenvoy seems a bit strange to me. What makes you think that she is town?