Mini 1266 - My iTunes Mafia - GAME OVER

[Slandaar]

or, if you could present the overwhelming case against Painted that would be good too Delta...

[Slandaar]

DV, just think of it as scummy.

[Painted Face of Death]

I was interested what you thought due to meta, but whatever, I think you are scum who knew this and was just trying to avoid giving the read, you should know i ask questions like this, so your suspicion is unfounded, which again takes me to the same conclusion, along with your offcharacter intro i find you highly suspicious in your 4/5 posts.

I'd agree with this assessment of DW based on his last few posts, which seem geared towards evading questions, turning them back on people, and trying to put people on the defensive. He has that sly detached sort of tone, which he shares with DJ. Compare that with Guttersnipe's angry rants, particularly the lengthy one directed at me: obviously this kind of tone argument can be gamed because it's WIFOM but I think DW is scum and Gutter is town.

[DeltaWave]

or, if you could present the overwhelming case against Painted that would be good too Delta...

Even though I may end up repeating what other people have said, I will do this. You may not see it until tomorrow though, as I have a night class and I might come home so late that I will end up passing out.

Preview Edit: Painted, I find it interesting that you don't mention this until I express suspicion of you. Your twitchiness is noted.

[Slandaar]

oh sorry 276 should be for DW not DV :/

[Skenvoy]

Post 50: I still don't see the point of this question. I don't actually know painted, so I don't see why he'd have an opinion.
Post 51: Not sure what I think about this. Adding nothing to the conversation. Liking Slandaar's response.
Post 61: His first point on me...just...What happened, was I provided an explanation for the situation, based on what I knew. I never said 'the point is void' - I provided my own take and knowledge on what was happening. This part...

first, the "reasons" make sense, just because they are "meta" does not invalidate them. in regards to the italicized, exactly the point. so why is sken choosing to defend himself.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Was I supposed to not defend myself, or answer questions I've been asked? Not making a whole lot of sense at this point. I'm also interested that his entire post is commenting on Painted, yet he doesn't move his vote there. Why not?
Post 62: Actually, I'm finding myself agreeing with a lot of this, maybe because I didn't like DJ's post either. At the moment, my reads are (scum is top)
DJ
Painted
Slandaar
Deasveil

Post 64: Hm...I agree with his points, but honestly, it's mainly rehashing of what's been said before - not adding much to the argument while staying on the side with the majority.
Post 65: Ugh, this post is one of the major reasons I dislike Painted. He seems incapable of understanding that the reason people are thinking I'm scummy is not because of the /inning or /outing, it's due to the reactions following that post. The only thing I agree with in this post is his reaction to DJ.
Post 66: Hmm...J seems to have a great deal of town reads.
Post 68: I find it interesting that Fennin didn't revote. He seems to have something of the same reaction to DV's vote as Painted did, but he's really just fencesitting at the moment. Christ, one post and I'm already really disliking Fennin.
Post 71: I do find it interesting that he's called out Painted for it, rather than DJ. If either J or DJ flipped scum, I'd be looking closely at the other. However, without the connection with DJ, I'm not minding J too much at the moment.

[DeasVail]

@DV/Delta

How about you do this

ISO painted

And use this information when reading it:
Deas's initial vote was complete bs.

Does it change your view at all?

But all the other votes were complete BS too because it was RVS. Painted makes out that I was accusing Skenvoy as being scum, when it was merely a reason to be slightly more suspicious of her.

Voting me because of it is something I feel scum are more likely to do.

[DeasVail]

Wow Skenvoy, from definitely town to a scum read but why were you so sure of my town-ness beforehand?

[DeasVail]

I don't know what to think anymore! D: Guess it's time for a re-read...

[Painted Face of Death]

Slandaar's post here in relation to Deasveil is actually fairly similar to Painted's first post in relation to me - he's questioning an attack on someone else before that person has a chance to address it themselves.

Part of this is just a playstyle thing, and part depends on the attack. Let's say A does something and B then attacks A. If you're interested in A, sure, wait for A to respond. If you think A is irrelevant but B's attack made you wonder, well, maybe it makes sense to press or question B. It all depends on who you suspect and whether you think the attack was justified.

In my case, I didn't really think anything of your post, but DV's attack made me wonder, so I didn't see the point in waiting for you to respond. I was interested in DV's response, not yours.

Okay, something I've just realised. It's almost impossible for me to read Painted clearly - I'm too intertwined in his scumminess/not scumminess. I mean, I just can't get a read on him

without my emotions interfering.

If someone really wants me to post a case on him, I will, but it'll be completely biased.

I really don't understand why you have such a strong emotional reaction to some of my posts. Where is that coming from? I've asked you about this before and still haven't gotten an answer...

[Skenvoy]

Post 75: I'm not minding Guttersnipe so much this time through.
Post 76: I somewhat agree with his points on Slandaar.
Post 81: I agree with this post. It's good.

I know I said a couple of posts ago that I didn't think I'd be able to get a good read on Painted, however, rereading as neutrally as I can, he's actually starting to look more town to me. Post 83, he's completely telling the truth in regards to DJ, and I think he's being honest with his opinions. At the moment, he's around equal with Slandaar in regards to my scum reads. Both Fennin and DJ are scummier than them, DV is townier, and I don't have a clear read on J or Noramp.

Post 86: Better than Fennin's entry, worse than Noramp's. If either monk or Painted flip scum, I'd be looking at the other.

I am actually going back to something I thought possible earlier: I don't think any of the early prolific posters are scum (which means I think Slandaar, Painted and Deasveil are all town). This is largely because I haven't seen a single good first post from ANYONE else (except perhaps Gutter's).

Post 94: Attempt to seem like he's scumhunting while he's really not doing anything at all. I think I commented earlier on the fact that he hardly said anything about the main conflict.
Post 96: Deas has got this funny little thing whereby whenever he unvotes and votes someone else, he puts a qualifier "This doesn't mean you're off the hook". He's done it twice so far.

At the moment, I'm feeling Fennin, metabot, monk, and DJ for scum.

PEdit: Deas, what? Where did I say I have a scum read on you?
PEdit again: That point is since null (see above). The emotions came mostly from the fact that I was being properly attacked for the first time in a game of mafia, and (from where I'm standing) a lot of it was due to you.

[Skenvoy]

Ohh, the post above yours? You obviously didn't notice, I said "Scum is top".

[Noramp]

post 197 painted i responded to your answer

[DeasVail]

Ohh, the post above yours? You obviously didn't notice, I said "Scum is top".

Oh, i thought those were your scum reads from scummiest to less scummy. My bad.

[Slandaar]

UNVOTE:

I will look at all that tomorrow.

[Painted Face of Death]

post 197 painted i responded to your answer

I responded to Slan right away; see posts 46 and 47.

Ohh, the post above yours? You obviously didn't notice, I said "Scum is top".

Oh, i thought those were your scum reads from scummiest to less scummy. My bad.

How else could that be interpreted? What did that list mean if not scum reads in order of scumminess?

[Painted Face of Death]

PEdit again: That point is since null (see above). The emotions came mostly from the fact that I was being properly attacked for the first time in a game of mafia, and (from where I'm standing) a lot of it was due to you.

The whole "STOP DEFENDING ME PAINTED" thing was because you were freaking out about being attacked and blaming me for it? So did you want to get me against you so everyone else would get off your case? I'm not really understanding...

[don_johnson]

fun facts:

sken voted pfod in the confirm stage. then random voted again(different player) after game start.

pfod voted.... internet stranger in confirm stage. then changed to another player after game start.

both made two random votes.

IS voted noone.

pfod came to skens defense. interactions between the two have been odd to say the least(don't ask, we've already discussed these connections.)

IS is still missing. if i had to call a 3 player scum team right now? you guessed it.

pfod, IS, skenvoy. seriously. someone reread this game with that scum team in mind and see if it fits.

also, any of you not voting, your vote would be better put to use on IS. think about it.

[don_johnson]

fennin is a wild card. the rest of you give me town goodness. lets stop pussyfootin around.

[Skenvoy]

Post 104: Ugh, I completely agree with this now. My post back there was awful.
Post 105: I don't see why Painted suspects us of private communications. It feels off to me. Also, I noted Slandaar's reaction to you suspecting Deas this time around as well. Maybe you're a bit more perceptive than me?
Post 106: Ah, that's where the question came from. It was too general, I didn't realise it was addressed to me particularly. Guttersnipe's leaning town for me at the moment, but I find it interesting that he's said "I swear to God Painted, I want to see you hanged just for being irrational" and still not voted. However, this seems to be regular for him, so it's not too suspicious.
Post 108: I didn't "intend" for Painted to address anything, I can't control what he comments on. I didn't address it myself because there's really nothing for me to address.
Post 109: This post is better than is first one. However, it almost seems like he's voting Metabot for his choice of words.
Post 110: Again, better than his earlier posts. He's making more sense in this one.
Post 112: Okay, I'll come clean with this one. Although I had a slight scum read on Painted, the vote was fueled by emotion - I was annoyed at his defence and trying to get him to stop it. As it happens, I think it worked, but the vote wasn't "He's scum", it was "OMFG JESUS CHRIST THIS GUY NEEDS TO STOP I'M VOTING!"
post 117: And that vote's fair enough.
Post 122: Hm...I've already commented on J's posts, and the thing I said earlier still applies; that he seems to have a great deal of town reads. I'm actually finding it really hard to get a read on him, though.

Actually, reading over, I was wondering why J's defence of me doesn't bother me as much as Painted's did, when I realised that the problem with Painted was that he defended me before I had a chance to defend myself. That seems to be the main difference.

Post 135: Deasveil's opinions keep coinciding with mine, which is part of the reason I believe he's town. His reads don't, though, which is why I'm not suspicious of him in the way I was suspicious of J.
Post 155: Yeah, the interaction was definitely different to the way I'd played before. That's primarily because it was nice to have the chance to play a bit of mafia with someone who didn't think I was almost-definitely scum.
Post 156: I completely disagree. If there was a twentysomething white, male, police officer who's investigating a crime, and the crime is done mostly by twentysomething white males, it's not hypocritical for the police officer to take that into account when forming their own suspicions.
Post 157: Hm...I still find that bias stuff weird.
Post 169: Ugh, I still don't like this post. It's all "I'm not confident enough to offer my own opinions, so I'll take someone else's.
Post 170: "Thank you metabot for your post"? What was the point of this sentence?
Post 176: This post confuses me. I don't understand it.
Post 182: Hm..your point that J could be scum wanting points off a townie mislynch is true. If scum were to defend townies, I agree with the person (can't remember who) who said they'd do it later in the day rather than earlier. But, like I said earlier, I'm finding it really difficult to get a read on J. This post as a whole isn't bad, although his reason why he's voting me "My suspicion on Painted depends on a Skenvoy scumflip" is weird - do you actually think I'm scum, DJ? Your case on me seems mostly to rest on Painted - I just still find it weird that you're voting me when nearly all your points are about Painted, despite your explanation.
Post 186: This is weird, he's almost harping on the original point that Deas made. Actually, this post as a whole isn't making a lot of sense. I'm liking Fennin for scum at the moment.
Post 190: The thing is, Painted, attacking someone else's attacked IS a form of defence. Just like OMGUS is.
Post 193: I actually do find the gender thing odd as well, not because of the original point (although that was increadibly weak and weird), but because DJ attacked Painted for harping on a 'minor point' in his argument, when in fact, it was only an equally small part of Painted's response. Originally, he didn't dedicate any more time or words to it than DJ did.
Post 198 & 199: Why does everyone make posts that I agree with? DJ, the reason I 'accepted' Painted's defence was that I honestly thought he'd stop once people started attacking him for it. He didn't, so then I got involved.

[Skenvoy]

DJ, what happens to your reads if I flip town?

[don_johnson]

I actually do find the gender thing odd as well, not because of the original point (although that was increadibly weak and weird), but because DJ attacked Painted for harping on a 'minor point' in his argument, when in fact, it was only an equally small part of Painted's response. Originally, he didn't dedicate any more time or words to it than DJ did.

^^ please qualify this with quotes. compare my original point to painteds original response. then show where i brought it up again, then where painted brought it up again. and so on. maybe we can count up actual words to qualify this idea.

also, sken, would you mind voting IS? you were one of the players earlier calling out lurkers. why now(after 10 pages) are you unwilling to act in that direction? same request and question to painted.

[DeasVail]

What was that point of that sentence? Are you really asking that?

The point: to show my appreciation of him posting and to encourage him to post more.

[Skenvoy]

Deasveil: You're acting strange - it's like you really want me to think you're scum. I can't understand the motivation for that, from either town or scum.

What happened to

Deas is definitely town.

? (I'm assuming that by "...want me to think you're scum" you mean to imply that something DV has just done seemed scummy to you)

Other than DV voting you, I mean. I would hope that there's more to your new suspicion of DV than "he voted me".

Either way, it would be nice if you would explain what you meant in your post (237).

Don't assume, that's not what I meant. I get the vibe from Deas' posts that he would prefer it if I thought him scum, which does not mean I think he's scum.

I actually do find the gender thing odd as well, not because of the original point (although that was increadibly weak and weird), but because DJ attacked Painted for harping on a 'minor point' in his argument, when in fact, it was only an equally small part of Painted's response. Originally, he didn't dedicate any more time or words to it than DJ did.

^^ please qualify this with quotes. compare my original point to painteds original response. then show where i brought it up again, then where painted brought it up again. and so on. maybe we can count up actual words to qualify this idea.

also, sken, would you mind voting IS? you were one of the players earlier calling out lurkers. why now(after 10 pages) are you unwilling to act in that direction? same request and question to painted.

I'll dig up a couple of posts after this one. I don't mind voting IS.

VOTE: Internet Stranger

I was waiting to vote until after I'd done my reread, to see if anyone jumped out as scummy to me. At the moment, it's Fennin, metabot, and almost you, but your recent posts are good. I'm going back to do an iso on Fennin and metabot, but I definitely don't want a lynch until IS posts something of content.

PEdit...hm, I suppose that's fair enough. It just sounded weird to me.

[Skenvoy]

okey dokey [j] heres my take:

first page: painted rvs vote looks like it could be scum over the top trying to be funny/fit in with townies. i read the "*evil laugh* more like a nervous laugh if that makes sense. nothing huge, but certainly the first thing to ping any sort of scumdar.

then deas votes serious? i guess so. if you notice, sken had voted painted in confirm stage, then changed his random vote to [J]. why rvs twice? i don't know. again nothing big, but certainly odd.

painted calls deas out. sure he

could

be a concerned townie looking for the first

serious

vote to be explained. but why bother? why not let sken handle it?

deas then produces a wierd "meta" type reason for his vote. ok. whatevz.

then sken says: "point is void". but in fact, if sken is scum the point is not void. infact, nothing sken can say makes the point void. the "point" is really just an opinion. but again, whatevz. i mean, what is sken gonna say? "herp derp, you got me, i'm scum." i don't think so.

then slan quotes the silly question sken asks of deas. not posting a reason until you are asked is a very townie thing to do. it helps you guage reactions. thats kinda mafiascum 101 imo. its just a really weak response to the vote in the first place. its like sken plays it off as though he's not concerned, but then he asks a question which shows concern. just wierd.

i guess to me, slan's post was self explanatory. so painted's "wtf was that?" post reads like chainsaw defense. then looking back at the rvs connection, it seems to all come together for me.

then deas points out what i saw earlier. then painted actually votes deas which reads like an even bigger chainsaw defense of sken. deas points are valid, ah shit, lets just break it down:

Three reasons:
a) not providing reasons at first, then saying "because I knew someone would prompt me." Why not just provide them up front instead of fishing for questions with a useless post?

"fishing" is a large part of scumhunting. and is useful. the "useless post" actually generated reactions, discussions, and so "useless" does not really apply.

b) the reasons he did provide don't make much sense. They're super meta and consist of reading way too much into a comment that the theme seems cool.

Skenvoy didn't say anything about defending her "choice to stay in the game" and there's no need to defend such a choice anyway

.

first, the "reasons" make sense, just because they are "meta" does not invalidate them. in regards to the italicized, exactly the point. so why is sken choosing to defend himself.

c) finally, post 30 doesn't make much sense either. I don't really even want to get into this because it's so meta and besides the point, but DV's theory doesn't work even on its own terms. Skenvoy signed up for the game -- presumably because she was interested -- and then asked if she could get out, which DV finds weirdly suspicious. Yet in post 30 DV seems to think, or try to sneakily imply, that staying in requires some sort of explanation and that Skenvoy's explanation wasn't relevant.

sken signed up. wanted out. pms were distributed. sken wanted in. is there something wrong with the timeline here? cause it makes perfect sense to me. dumb reason for a vote, but a reason nonetheless. deas is not the one making a big deal out of it. in fact, his vote post was rather subdued. the reaction to it is what has been overblown. i don't see deas "sneakily" implying anything. i think his posting is up front.

also, paint seems to be referring to sken as "she". maybe i missed the gender tag, but paint certainly seems familiar with the maiden he's whiteknighting atm.

slan notices the same thing i notice at that point, which is the growing connection between sken and painted. hence, "sken you are a beacon of light."

not sure why deas moves their vote next, but that post makes sense.

38 reads like painted trying to downplay his reactions.

slan in 42 is a good point.

so here we go again:

i) First, you vote for Skenvoy, providing reasons when asked. There's nothing wrong with this in itself: it's just that your reasoning is poor.

nope. painted's "a)" from earlier was all about "not providing reasons at first". suddenly its not a big deal?

ii) Next, I vote for you, explaining my reasons. Note that my reasons did not include you being suspicious of a player and voting. That's not what I suspect you for: I suspect you for the reasons I listed.

what?? this makes no sense to me and i have no idea why this is even numbered.

iii) Finally, you switch your vote to me, apparently for providing reasons ("trying to make my vote seem justified"). You backpedal on i), saying it was just a useless RVS post, but RVS ends when people actually get suspicious and start having reasons for their votes. You say I'm nitpicking by voting for you based on my early suspicion, when at the same time, you vote for me based on yours.

this is not an equation imo. painted provided bullshit reasons. deas provided good ones. this an "apples to oranges" type of lgic here.

There's nothing wrong with either of us voting based on our suspicions -- this game is all about analysis -- it's just a matter of whether the reasoning is solid. Yours isn't. There's nothing odd about Skenvoy thinking she'd be ineligible for a newbie game if she joined this one and asking if she could leave, then staying in once she realized she was ineligible anyway, the game had already started, and the theme was kickass. The way you and Slandaar tried to start something on Skenvoy for poor reasons, then backpedal once you're called on it, is pretty suspicious.

i didn't see any backpedaling. i guess if you and sken are town, then this could be some scum mastermind plan, but deas voted sken before she offered her explanation, its not like deas listened to sken's explanation and

then

voted. deas just pointed out that the reasoning was really irrelevant to the original reason for voting. it wasn't a big deal, just a solid piece of logic.

sken 53 could be right, we could all be town here, but it also gives him an out to conveniently not have to suspect painted. if they are buddies, that is probably the right play for sken. start distancing. the fact that he doesn't

really

comment on painted at this point is worrisome. i.e. he just glances the argument and fencesits.

so i guess we're back here. how was that?

I can't decide if Don Johnson's post was more scummy or VI. What do you guys think? A lot of spreading confusion and misinformation there:

not posting a reason until you are asked is a very townie thing to do. it helps you guage reactions. thats kinda mafiascum 101 imo.

I have to disagree with this as a matter of strategy. It smells scummy to me, though I don't really think that by itself is a major tell. I'm not familiar with people doing that.

i guess to me, slan's post was self explanatory. so painted's "wtf was that?" post reads like chainsaw defense.

So to me, it wasn't self-explanatory, though I see your point. If you're used to that kind of play then it's not that remarkable.

I can't tell if you're genuinely not understanding the idea of the chainsaw defense, or if you're deliberately muddying the waters. Chainsaw defense is when you argue that someone is innocent by attacking their attacker. It's different from noticing that an attacker is scummy. I have no idea if Sken is innocent or scum, one way or the other: to me, what's far more interesting and important is the bullshit arguments for Sken's guilt which make DV look scummy.

"fishing" is a large part of scumhunting. and is useful. the "useless post" actually generated reactions, discussions, and so "useless" does not really apply.

This is actually a valid point. It didn't turn out to be useless. By itself, not giving reasons is no big deal, but in combination with the other things DV looked scummy.

sken signed up. wanted out. pms were distributed. sken wanted in. is there something wrong with the timeline here? cause it makes perfect sense to me. dumb reason for a vote, but a reason nonetheless. deas is not the one making a big deal out of it.

That was my entire point. Dumb reason for a vote, and it's all we had to go on at the time, so I voted DV. It may have just been DV not understanding the situation with Sken. But looking at what's happened since then, I'm suspecting DV.

also, paint seems to be referring to sken as "she". maybe i missed the gender tag

Seriously? It's under Sken's avatar, just like all the other gender tags. I don't think you missed it, I think you're trying to stir up trouble. This is pretty shady right there.

You seem to be having trouble following post 45. Basically, DV seemed to think that there was something wrong with giving reasons for why I thought someone was scum based on an early suspicion. My entire point was, as you say:

this is not an equation imo. painted provided bullshit reasons. deas provided good ones. this an "apples to oranges" type of lgic here.

except that my reasons were good and DV's were bullshit.

I said DV's reasons were bullshit, DV said "you gave reasons too!" and I explained that the problem was not with giving reasons, but that his reasons were bullshit.

i didn't see any backpedaling.

The backpedaling is a big part of why I suspect DV. His first vote was pretty clear that he thought Sken was guilty, but later he tried to pass it of as just part of the random voting phase.

The time given to the gender mention is about the same in both posts. And you both suggested that it could mean the other is scum. I was just interested that people jumped on Painted for refuting your point, while you've largely managed to escape attention.

@My last post: That was directed at DV, I forgot to make that known so apologies. x_X

Seriously? It's under Sken's avatar, just like all the other gender tags. I don't think you missed it, I think you're trying to stir up trouble. This is pretty shady right there.

This is the part that was unsettling to me because it is a really bad point to try and make someone scummy for not recognizing gender of a player. You accuse him of doing it on purpose to make you look worse.

Within the rest of the post, you don't really fend off DJ but more or less qualify what he has brought up against you which is why I don't like it. It's not really a solid defense.

My bad, you didn't jump on it first, J did. Still, I find it odd.