[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Trevor]

Whiskers, EM is terrible compared to MS. I made an account there, and abandoned it before I even joined a game. It was that bad.

You can't expect to find rational play there.

That's like saying "French Fries are terrible. I bought some, but never ate them. They were that bad."

Also, let's say you lynch the scumcop. Cop has inno on dead Doc. Whom do you lynch?

Scumhunt

Back to this setup
3 VTs
2 power roles (out of cop, doc, watcher)
1 goon
1 scum roleblocker



Let's say there is a massclaim. Both prs claim and mafia claims VT. You have two scum in 5 suspects with a mislynch. If mafia counterclaims, you have a guaranteed scum if you lynch between counterclaims. If mafia claims the pr that doesn't exist, you have a 2/3 shot of getting that scum using the mislynch. Town is better off not claiming anything d1 and scum is better off not ccing anything d1 if town does massclaim. Any pr claims by town are guaranteed to be NKed.

Town massclaims:

Both power roles go uncounterclaimed by scum
Town has 2/5 chance of lynching scum.

D1: Town lynches scum (2/5)
D2: Town lynches scum (1/4)

1/10 chance of town win

D1: Town lynches scum (2/5)
D2: Town lynches town (3/4)
D3: Town lynches scum (1/3)

1/10 chance of town win

D1: Town lynches town(3/5)
D2: Town lynches scum(2/4)
D3: Town lynches scum(1/3)

1/10 chance of town win

Town has a 3/10 chance of winning if they randomly lynch after massclaiming.

Town doesn't massclaim

Town scumhunts

D1: Towny is getting lynched and claims VT, he gets lynched.
N1: No power roles are outed other than POE/reads by scum. Scum doesn't know who to roleblock/kill, giving the power roles a chance to use their power.

D1: Towny is getting lynched, claims pr. Other pr shuts up and town lynches someone else. Scum doesn't know the other pr so it would be risky shooting the claimed pr. Other pr can claim if they feel the claimed pr is scum.

D1: Scum is getting lynched, claims a pr. He either gets cced or the real prs claim. Lynch between prs, good odds.

Town has a much better chance if no one claims.

[Junpei]

huh. no...

2v5 mountainous is unbalanced... and it's just extremely boring, but you aren't even factoring in possible reports. If there's a watcher and a cop, mafia has lost the game if they don't claim. So with this method, you simply go "OKAY COP CLAIM GO", and then if mafia don't CC or claim (lol) then they get to go 50/50 with whether there's a watcher and they lose the game, or if there's a doc and they have a balanced chance at winning. Yeah, they are claiming cop or watcher every time. Also, town scumhunting + mass claim = what exactly? You seem to think that we here at MS roll dice after a mass claim.

Town will always mass claim day 1
Town will always ask cop to claim first
Mafia will always cc cop
Either there are cop ccs, and the last PR claims freely or
-- --- There are no cop ccs, and we get a (2of3) pr town. In which case you go Watcher on cop, doc on watcher. Mafia really have to kill a PR, and that helps figure things out. There is no better strategy.
Lynch scummiest VT
If town, oh well, you found something out from the PR scandals and you go from there, certainly will have either a guilty report, cop CCs, or a RB watch. If that isn't enough to find scum, then I don't know what is.
If scum, congrats, you just won the game as there is nothing scum can have done, as town will know that mafia almost certainly claimed cop because of what I described earlier.

Doesn't seem that interesting, seems too dictated by claims.

[Whiskers]

D1: Towny is getting lynched, claims pr. Other pr shuts up and town lynches someone else. Scum doesn't know the other pr so it would be risky shooting the claimed pr. Other pr can claim if they feel the claimed pr is scum.

Why would it be risky for the Mafia to shoot the claimed PR?
If the "other" pr feels the claimed PR is scum, then wouldn't it take

two

PRs to lynch?
Now, watch this: Doctor about to be lynched. Cop claims, says he doesn't believe the Doc is real. Goon claims Watcher. Lynch Doc. Oh no, the scum is outted! Nightkill Cop and lynch goon, Lylo.

D1: Scum is getting lynched, claims a pr. He either gets cced or the real prs claim. Lynch between prs, good odds.

Why is this different from the Townie claims PR version? Why does the "real prs claim"?
But you're missing the point. Here is a setup that is based all around who claims what when.

[preedit]
I got beaten to it.
-____-

[Trevor]

D1: Towny is getting lynched, claims pr. Other pr shuts up and town lynches someone else. Scum doesn't know the other pr so it would be risky shooting the claimed pr. Other pr can claim if they feel the claimed pr is scum.

Why would it be risky for the Mafia to shoot the claimed PR?

The possibility of a doc/watcher on the pr. Watcher would catch the scum, while the doc would save the pr.

If the "other" pr feels the claimed PR is scum, then wouldn't it take

two

PRs to lynch?

If another pr feels the claimed is scum, they can just claim. The last one will also claim, giving you three pr claims. You can popcorn the roleclaim with the scummiest going first. Getting ccs with a mislynch guarantees a dead scum.

Now, watch this: Doctor about to be lynched. Cop claims, says he doesn't believe the Doc is real. Goon claims Watcher. Lynch Doc. Oh no, the scum is outted! Nightkill Cop and lynch goon, Lylo.

Reread, scumhunt, 1/3 chance of getting scum. Town's fault for getting in this situation.

D1: Scum is getting lynched, claims a pr. He either gets cced or the real prs claim. Lynch between prs, good odds.

Why is this different from the Townie claims PR version? Why does the "real prs claim"?
But you're missing the point. Here is a setup that is based all around who claims what when.
Give me a setup that doesn't revolve around claims that isn't all VTs.

[Trevor]

Last line is my response.

[izakthegoomba]

Whiskers, EM is terrible compared to MS. I made an account there, and abandoned it before I even joined a game. It was that bad.

You can't expect to find rational play there.

That's like saying "French Fries are terrible. I bought some, but never ate them. They were that bad."

No. I'd heard it was bad, but I also knew it was faster, so I decided to give it a go. But when I got an account and took a look around, I just gave up on it. A lot of the setups were poorly designed and imbalanced, and easily broken. The standard of play was awful compared to what we see here. Not to mention the website itself.

PEdit: there are many, many setups like that. Have a quick look around the wiki, or take a look at some finished games. Setups just have to be designed properly so that a massclaim can be useful in the later stages, but doesn't break the game, thus making it poor play to claim early.

[Junpei]

Pssst Trevor, I already broke your setup; stop saying scumhunt, we are well aware of scumhunting, that isn't the issue. The issue is that claiming patterns make it such that the game will go in a very linear fashion, with a very good chance for town to win; despite your RNG mass claim math job.

Also, I have played at EM enough to say that it is full of bad play; so if you won't accept Izak's testimony, you'll accept mine. This has nothing to do with epicmafia though; so stop bringing it up, your setup is broken, I'm sorry.

[Whiskers]

I wish there was some way to testrun setups like this. Actually, maybe I'll organize something.

[preedit]
Trevor, if you really want to import EM stuff to here, Try making a setup in which one of the more esoteric roles has a place-- like the Creepy Girl.

Although, I guess that wouldn't be allowed in Open...

[Junpei]

He could just make an open game; add lame theme, and call it a themed game.

Maybe there should be a private queue for more experimental games for the sake of setup testing. I don't know if it would work or not, though; I'm sure Hoopla, Papa Zito and the others have thought about it before and have notes on the idea though.

[Whiskers]

Theme suggestion:

"EpicMafia.com players are invading MafiaScum.net! You've managed to crush most of the trolls with your banhammer, but a few sneaky sneaky players have managed to stay hidden under their consistent EM-and-MS playstyle!"

You could run it as a Hurt/Heal, with modnames as the townies and players like DK as the scum.

[izakthegoomba]

Basically, if a game relies upon a pre-set strategy and luck to determine the winner,

even if it's still theoretically balanced

, it should never be run, because you may as well run an RNG to determine who wins.

PEdit: there was a big thing in MD about the Micro Queue proposal, and mith said he'd look into it, before he went on hiatus. If that happens, there probably won't be an experimental queue, because people will use Micro to test out game

mechanics

. I guess you could run a cut-down open to test out a game concept.

PEdit2: that is actually a brilliant idea. I am not kidding. Please run this NOW.

[Whiskers]

I'll get on it. would you be playing in it, or could I ask you to helpmod? (I'm not literate enough with the goodmods or badplayers from this site)

looking into Hurt/Heal now.

[Junpei]

But then scum would instantly die as everyone hurt them.

There should be a queue where a mod posts saying "I have an experimental game I'd like to test out; PM for details, here are the very basics", and then once it fills, it gets permission to run in, I don't know, the Open Forum. Of course, there'd be a queue-mod to make sure it is a) experimental enough b) within the realm of possibilities of being balanced. We'd need a pretty dedicated mod for that queue.

[Whiskers]

I nominate Junpei for that position.

[izakthegoomba]

I'd love to help design it; perhaps a co-mod thing? I could research some prolific players from both sites. I'm not too confident about hurt/heal, I'll have to look into past games of that type.

And you generally need 1 year on site as a

minimum

to become a List Mod.

[Whiskers]

I nominate... uh... um...
I don't know any 1-year-old players who give a damn about anything.

[izakthegoomba]

Hey, by the time they get through all the inevitable debate and discussion, any of us here would probably be eligible

[Whiskers]

In that case, I nominate Jun. He's serious enough to be frumpy if had to be, seems to know balance kind of, and I haven't seen him \have a problem with consistency (being online a lot, and such).

[izakthegoomba]

Uh, I'm pretty sure Flay would choose... but Jun could probably do it.

Actually, Jun, are you an alt?

[Junpei]

I don't think I'd be good at any important position, I don't know enough, haven't seen enough. I'm not sure who I would nominate, I don't know anyone who I think would probably say yes that have been on the site for a year.

[Junpei]

I'm not an alt... and I really am not as good at this stuff as you guys think; I only have 2 setups I'm working on (the only ones I have worked on), and there isn't anything that difficult that I ever comment on that comes through this thread. For instance, if I tried to do what Hoopla is doing, I'd fail almost certainly.

[izakthegoomba]

Maybe you're just a good actor

I've made about twenty setups already, but most of them will never get run.

[Junpei]

20? Wow. Have you worked them all out? The way I think is easiest to come up with ideas is to decide what it is you are trying to do (I'm trying to insert a fool, or I'm trying to insert this mechanic) and make something fun that fits that.

But I am just good at making it look like I know what I'm doing; regardless of if I do or not. That's a trait that has caught me a lot of breaks in real life.

[izakthegoomba]

Yes, 20. But a fair load are probably imbalanced, or need more attention. Only a few are properly polished and fit to be reviewed.

[Whiskers]

But I am just good at making it look like I know what I'm doing; regardless of if I do or not. That's a trait that has caught me a lot of breaks in real life.

Ha-ha! I know

that

feel, bro!