Newbie #1185 (Game Over!)

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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:14 am

Post by Tierce »

In post 145, Shiidaji wrote:Above exchange doesn't feel town vs. town.
asdfghj I miss double-vote Mafia.
Haycorn didn't show any aggression or support for the SOAD wagon until SOAD voted for her. Why?

Not true:
In post 82, haycorn wrote:I suppose at this point I would be most inclined to VOTE: VOTE: syndromeofadown. Sorry.

You said the exchange felt scum vs. town before. Why the need to reiterate this?


In post 145, Shiidaji wrote:It's half and half. Don't have a playstyle set in stone yet but I like the one I have right now.

Thing is, having to poke you for information is a bit awkward. Until your posts today, you were tunneling on SOAD.


In post 140, haycorn wrote:I think that Tierce and Shii have been directing most of the flow of the game, which I find interesting. I'm not sure whether this is a purposeful maneuvering for control or just an attempt at helpfulness, but I will be watching what they have to say.


Scrutiny = good. That's all I can really say about that paragraph, since I'm in it and gameplay speaks louder than any explanations for my actions so far.
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:43 am

Post by Shiidaji »

In post 148, Tierce wrote:You say gut scumread on haycorn, consider SOAD the scummiest of the lot, and classify haycorn/SOAD exchange as town vs. scum? I'm missing something here.

You said the exchange felt scum vs. town before. Why the need to reiterate this?


They read scummy separately. As in, I'm liking the odds of one of them being scum, I doubt that this is a bus, and I'm thinking over which one is more probably scum.

In post 150, Tierce wrote:
In post 145, Shiidaji wrote:Above exchange doesn't feel town vs. town. asdfghj I miss double-vote Mafia. Haycorn didn't show any aggression or support for the SOAD wagon until SOAD voted for her. Why?


Not true:
In post 82, haycorn wrote:I suppose at this point I would be most inclined to VOTE: VOTE: syndromeofadown. Sorry.



I wasn't counting the vote itself. She passively voted without any sort of follow-up or push on SOAD.
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:54 am

Post by inte »

Right now I'm posting from my iPhone. I'm home from college for thanksgiving and can't focus on analyzing these exchanges from a small screen. I have only one more thing to say (for now) is that explicitly stating that your playstyle is to be an "observer" is pretty redundant and an easy cop out for not posting. It reads maf to me but it could just be because it's a newbie game.

I just realized I have another thing to say. I really dislike lynching first day because of how little information we have. I find it easier to read scum from the reasons why someone was killed rather than mishaps in their rhetoric.
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:04 am

Post by BBmolla »

In post 152, inte wrote:I just realized I have another thing to say. I really dislike lynching first day because of how little information we have. I find it easier to read scum from the reasons why someone was killed rather than mishaps in their rhetoric.

Lynching d1 is optimal for the town.

Situation 1 - Lynch D1(Assuming no doc/jk influence and assuming we dont lynch scum)
Town lynch 6/2
Scum kill - 5/2
Town lynch 4/2
Scum kill 3/2
This ends in a Lynch or Lose, where we have a 40% of lynching scum.

Situation 2 - No Lynch
NL 7/2
Scum kill - 6/2
Town lynch - 5/2
Scum kill - 4/2
This ends in a Mislynch and Lose, where we have a 33% of lynching scum.

Situation one we have two mislynches and end in LYLO with higher chance of lynching scum.
Situation two we have one mislynch and end in mylo with lower chance.

Make sense?
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:27 am

Post by Tierce »

In post 152, inte wrote:I just realized I have another thing to say. I really dislike lynching first day because of how little information we have. I find it easier to read scum from the reasons why someone was killed rather than mishaps in their rhetoric.

Besides the mechanics BB already posted, while nightkills can be studied by town, we have to do so carefully. It's all a big ball of WIFOM. It's easier to unravel the patterns behind lynches, because we can see who voted who and why, who instigated what, etc.
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:31 am

Post by Tierce »

In post 151, Shiidaji wrote:
I wasn't counting the vote itself. She passively voted without any sort of follow-up or push on SOAD.


Got it.
Her continued justification for it was that hostility/aggression feels scummy. See post #82, etc. for more on that.
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:23 am

Post by BBmolla »

Reading now.

In post 5, Shiidaji wrote:One question to everyone, how much Mafia experience do you have?

I have like 20 games completed at this site, probably around half are newbie games.(My wiki page is outdated btw, I've got to update it here soon) Prior to Mafiascum, I was an avid player at EpicMafia. I've also played a few times in real life, but the degree of seriousness is far less with the people I play with in real life and it's not really to be counted.(My last IRL game cop had a guilty on a player and the town lynched the cop's innocent from the previous day instead)
Oh and Cry_Wolf, haycorn just reminded me. It's a shame it got taken down.

Spoiler: Notes
"What does this NOT mean?
- I am town (I could be scum, watch out!)" I loled at this. You may want to reword it.

SoA - 20 - What occurs day one is extremely important for scumhunting.
Page 2 - Struggling to discern reads from philosophy. Hopefully this theory talk will stop soon.
Shii - 47 - Ah, cool, a townread.
haycorn - 49 - This is filler, would have been fine in combination with comments on what's happening(in fact in the post you quoted even) but this post made me check your ISO, as I'd forgotten what you'd even posted. IGMEOY.
SoA - 57 - "There are no scumtells day 1" This guy is silly.
Shii vs. SoA is starting out interesting.
SoA - 59 - SoA, we can't have "facts" until people actually scumhunt. If votes are facts, then how are votes initially created, excluding RVS? By scumhunting.
haycorn - 63 - Exploded computer is fine. The second part contributes to my scummy read.
inte - 76 - Oh boy I don't even know what this means.
haycorn - 82 - Not really any scumhunting here. It's information disguised as scumhunting.
inte - 86 - "stay thirsty my friends" I seriously laughed out loud at this. Null on him for now, looks like new playerness being construed as scumminess in my opinion.
SoA - 88 - Stop that. Workdawg is a great player, as scum and town(despite his record not showing it, I can say from experience). Lynching Town-Workdawg without sufficient in game reason would just be depressing.
haycorn - 93 - :|
haycorn - 96 - :|
inte - 101 - He's probably misguided town at this point. At least he's trying.
btw where'd Shii go
haycorn - 107 - Filler.
SoA is probably town.
Shii - 114 - I love when my townreads do what I'd do.
hacorn - 116 - This is better, but still not by much.
Shii - 117 - "Tierce's wall had nothing etc." I noticed this too but I didn't bring it up. I hate walls so I figured I just missed the scumhunting.
haycorn - 136 - Filler.
SoA - 139 - Woo my other townread is agreeing with me. I feel he's stretching a bit, but he's voting my top read for scum so whatever.


Huge townreads on Shii and SoA. Big scumread on haycorn.

In post 134, iamausername wrote:
-=Vote Count #3=-


syndromeofadown (3) - Workdawg, Shiidaji, haycorn
inte (2) - fathom42, Tierce
Shiidaji (1) - Cav

Not Voting (3) - Sampson, syndromeofadown, inte

5 to lynch.

Deadline falls in (expired on 2011-12-10 14:00:00)

And look whose voting SoA.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: haycorn

Everyone else is pretty null, slight townreads on Tierce and Workdawg, Sampson and fathom both went un-noticed so I'm keeping my eye on them, and inte is probably newbtown atm.

In addition, you all should really unvote SoA, he's just flawed logic town.
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:23 am

Post by BBmolla »

Also, ISO haycorn and just see all dat filler. I could quote more filler from her than actual scumhunting.
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:28 am

Post by BBmolla »

Also, quick question, if you suddenly turned into a DayCop(A cop who can check someone's alignment during the day) who would you check right now and why?
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:45 pm

Post by haycorn »

In post 145, Shiidaji wrote:
Haycorn didn't show any aggression or support for the SOAD wagon until SOAD voted for her. Why?


I didn't really feel like I needed to. Honestly, until he posted the big wall against me, I was starting to think that maybe everyone had a point and SOAD's hostility was not as scummy as I read it. After his accusations, where I really feel like he was pulling out information and wildly speculating with it, I'm back to seeing him as scum. I just have trouble believing that he would want to build so detailed, but so unfounded, of a case against me unless he's trying to deflect information off of himself.

In post 148, Tierce wrote:I don't know if haycorn is being friendly just because she's friendly or if this is a start of a buddying attempt on me. (I'm all for natural friendliness, but I bite if you try to incriminate me by association, haycorn.)


I'm just friendly! Really. Shii, if your profile shows your correct age, you are wise beyond your years. Fathom, your icon shows your excellent taste in video games. BBMolla, I was really impressed by your play in the newbie game that just ended. Workdawg, you seem to be doing a great job as an IC. Sampson, your icon makes me smile. Inte, I like that you are secure enough in your identity that you said you didn't care what I called you. SOAD, you have really well-formatted posts.

I guess that was filler again. Sorry. I guess that what is traditionally done is to say "Wait, I'm writing a big post now!" and then go come up with a claim for why someone is scum. So, WAIT! I'm writing a big post! I'm going to scumhunt someone, if only to see what my wagon has to say about it.


In post 156, BBmolla wrote:
In addition, you all should really unvote SoA, he's just flawed logic town.


Can you explain your reasoning on that one? What has he done to prove himself to be town? I honestly want to know. All I see in your notes is you pointing out the flaws in his reasoning and then suddenly declaring that he's town. Why?


In post 158, BBmolla wrote:Also, quick question, if you suddenly turned into a DayCop(A cop who can check someone's alignment during the day) who would you check right now and why?


SOAD, because I would want to know if he has an agenda against me or just really believes I'm scum.
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:00 pm

Post by BBmolla »

In post 159, haycorn wrote:Can you explain your reasoning on that one? What has he done to prove himself to be town? I honestly want to know. All I see in your notes is you pointing out the flaws in his reasoning and then suddenly declaring that he's town. Why?

Why would scum disagree with town, drawing attention to themselves and making people not like them? What's the incentive?

Why is he scum?
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:04 pm

Post by Tierce »

#159 is a scum post.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: haycorn

In post 158, BBmolla wrote:Also, quick question, if you suddenly turned into a DayCop(A cop who can check someone's alignment during the day) who would you check right now and why?


haycorn. Townies know they will eventually die, there's no such thing as a 'perfect victory' for town. In other words, see her very very weird last sentence.
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:32 pm

Post by haycorn »

I tried this iso thing with an eye towards making a case against someone who hasn't made a case against me, but the best I could do was come up with a list of quotes that made me want to ask fathom why he spends so much time asking other people what they think while providing only superficial input of his own.

In post 14, fathom42 wrote:'Ay, Sampson. I know you've played a few games because you're an SE, but it would be nice to know what they were like. Care to post them?

In post 19, fathom42 wrote:I'd like to ask everyone about their opinion of bandwagoning.
snipping out part of the post
For example, what do folks think of the exchange me and Tierce just had?

In post 87, fathom42 wrote:Inte, I promise I'll answer your question after I get back (Probably around 1 or 2 EST). You WILL say what you think of the other players after I have done so, correct?

In post 91, fathom42 wrote:Personally, I think the Shii/SOAD thing was scummy from both sides. I don't approve of either of them resorting to personal attacks.


(please note that the last response, regarding personal attacks, uses the same argument as my post.)

So, fathom, I'm curious as to your thoughts about the happenings of the past few days, preferably using your own unique reactions rather than restating what others have already said.


Just for funsies, I did an iso on Cav, which didn't give me much, and then on my new bestest friend SOAD. I know that I'm playing into the hands of everyone who wants to accuse me of attacking him because he voted for me, but it's really more of a case of me not working this out until now.

In post 20, syndromeofadown wrote: Don't take day 1 so seriously. If you want to discuss something, discuss, but I doubt you'll figure out anything very meaningful.


Early in the thread, and he's already setting himself up as the arbiter of playstyle. It's actually a great trick, and I take my hat off to him. If you come out as that confident in yourself as a player, there's often a natural response to go along with it and to see opinions as valid simply because they are stated in a way that sounds so rational. "Don't take it so seriously," he says. He knows what he's doing. Of course we should listen to him and assume that all of his claims and opinions are well reasoned.

In post 53, syndromeofadown wrote: I find it funny that you're attacking me for not "getting my voice out" when I've responded and given my opinion on everything presented so far.


This is his fourth post in the thread. None have been longer than eight lines. He presents himself as having been open and honest, except at this point he hasn't said much of anything.


In post 55, syndromeofadown wrote: I voted you because you're being illogical, and because you wanted me to vote someone. Why so tense over one more vote? I'll most likely unvote you before you end of the day. Honestly, if I were attacking you or anyone else in this game, I'd have a whole different tone. This is me being nice.


"Quit being so angry. You're so suspiciously angry! Why aren't you calm like me?"


In post 57, syndromeofadown wrote: We've been over this. Everything boils down to wifom. There are no scumtells day 1. Scum is found with a combination of facts and reactions, not reactions alone. You have no idea how I react when I am town. You have no idea how I react when I am scum.


Apparently since we don't know how SOAD plays when he's town or mafia, any suspicion about his behavior is just convoluted reasoning, not a valid scumhunt.



In post 88, syndromeofadown wrote:
inb4 people call me wishy washy for changing my vote. I know somebody's going to think by voting shii and unvoting I'm trying to distance without bussing, but trust me I'm not. LOL


He said bussing, not any of us. I don't think anyone else had even voted for Shii at the point. Why would we accuse him? Moreover, even if we did have a reason, he's already ridiculed the idea of the other players questioning his motives, thus setting himself above accusation.

SOAD, the more I read from you, the more impressed I am by your play. You've come in guns blazing, so sure of yourself and so quick to make sure that nobody but nobody can accuse you of being scum without being mocked. I just wish that I thought you were using your powers for town, not for evil.

@Tierce, when did I say anything about a "perfect victory"? What does what you said have anything at all to do with what I said?

@BBMolla, for why he is scum, see above. I don't think he's trying to make people not like him. I think he's trying to make people believe that he's someone who should be listened to.
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:36 pm

Post by Tierce »

haycorn: Leave thoughts on everyone's playstyle and writing abilities to after the end of the game, please. This filler thing needs to stop.

Bed first, replies later.
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:43 pm

Post by BBmolla »

All I see in your case is his awful logic. Bad logic =/= scum.

I just played a game where I hammered a VT because he claimed Jailkeeper for half the game. In the end he claimed VT and said I was scum. I was the only claimed PR. I was clear.

I've got a solid town read on him for reasons I'll explain at a later time. I don't want him lynched today.
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:02 pm

Post by haycorn »

@Tierce -- I was not aware that I was posting filler that time. I was trying to build my case against SOAD. I genuinely see his posts as an attempt to set himself up as an authority so that he can have control over who gets lynched. If that wasn't clear, then I am sorry, but I was not posting just to post. I'm trying explain why I read him as scum.

@BBMolla I look forward to seeing your reasons, but with all due respect I'm not going to read him as town until I have a reason beyond you telling me to.
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:22 am

Post by fathom42 »

I apologize for inactivity. In hindsight, I probably should've asked for V/LA over Thanksgiving break. I'm about to return to my college campus, so I cannot post now. However, I shall read up and post my thoughts by 10 PM EST.
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:59 am

Post by iamausername »

-=Vote Count #4=-


syndromeofadown (3) - Workdawg, Shiidaji, haycorn
haycorn (3) - syndromeofadown, BBmolla, Tierce
inte (1) - fathom42

Not Voting (2) - Sampson, inte

5 to lynch.

Deadline falls in (expired on 2011-12-10 14:00:00)
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:16 am

Post by inte »

In post 158, BBmolla wrote:Also, quick question, if you suddenly turned into a DayCop(A cop who can check someone's alignment during the day) who would you check right now and why?


fathom42
his deflection "playstyle" really irks me more than anything. his first post that actually had any content in it was #91. the rest were just questions, or stating things that are obvious. he hasn't even posted anything since. if you guys were bandwagoning me for lurking until page 3, what does it say about fathom who only deflected attention, when went undercover for almost 4 pages.

while i agree with #162 for the most part (and i was to post something similar before, but turkeys attacked), i'm not exactly seeing what haycorn has to say about SOAD as logical. i feel like she's grasping at straws because a more experienced player is paying more attention and scrutinizing her posts.

also, i was at first suspicious of tierce for the same reasons, but the more i re-read her posts, the more i got a town read.

i completely forgot to truly answer sampson's question
In post 121, Sampson wrote:But I'd like to know, do you genuinely believe Tierce is scum (you are voting for her, after all)? If so, based on your posts, I'm not so sure I understand your case on her. Care to explain it?


at the time, i thought posts #34 and #62 sort of contradict. she at firsts is in favor of bandwagoning for information, but then tries to quell shiidaji's post #52 calling for people to put pressure on. i found it very confusing.
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:22 am

Post by inte »

why did i put playstyle in quotes? the world may never know.
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:51 am

Post by haycorn »

Responding to myself, I suppose, but I now realize that in my previous post I didn't make it clear what I was doing, which is why it read as filler and I apologize. I was trying to use those quotes to support an idea that SOAD was trying to deflect suspicion by declaring himself a superior player.

@inte You say "at the time." What specifically changed, either in your thinking or in Tierce's posts, to change your mind or alleviate your confusion?
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:57 am

Post by BBmolla »

Inte stole my answer. I'd probably check Tierce/Fathom atm, because both are kind of in between readwise and both could be extremely helpful if confirmed town. Workdawg would be my third choice, but as IC by D3 he'll probably be dead unless he's scum.(Don't use this as a super concrete fact or anything, it's just a general tendency)

This is a great read on who one should check as a cop; could be potentially useless this game but it might help you out in the future. To summarize the article though, "Cops should investigate competent players who are not obviously Town or obviously scum".

Just a small tangent.

Declaring oneself as a superior player does not deflect suspicion. That's silly.
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:14 am

Post by haycorn »

I seem to keep failing at getting my words to work. It's not an explicit declaration that I meant, more that if you act like someone who should be listened to, quite often you will get people to listen to you. Maybe this is not as true (or not true at all) in a game where suspicion is the norm, but it's something I've observed in meatspace, and that's what I see SOAD as doing.

I do appreciate the article link.
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:35 am

Post by Shiidaji »

In post 158, BBmolla wrote:Also, quick question, if you suddenly turned into a DayCop(A cop who can check someone's alignment during the day) who would you check right now and why?


Workdawg, Sampson, or you. What you linked to covers most of it, it's a pretty good read.

The first two for being my major null reads, and Bbmolla because you equalling town would erase the slight possibility of a BBmolla + SOAD scumteam and be rather reassuring.

---

MollaMolla said...

I just played a game where I hammered a VT because he claimed Jailkeeper for half the game. In the end he claimed VT and said I was scum. I was the only claimed PR. I was clear.

I've got a solid town read on him for reasons I'll explain at a later time.

I was following that game, it was pretty sad. DeadQT was funny though.

Please do explain.

---
In post 162, haycorn wrote:@BBMolla, for why he is scum, see above. I don't think he's trying to make people not like him. I think he's trying to make people believe that he's someone who should be listened to.


If so, how is it scummy?
---



I am a bit wary of placing her at L-1 before Sampson, Work, Fathom and Inte get in and post their stances, but I'll be re-reading and will place a vote on Haycorn late today if I find myself leaning her over SOAD.
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:53 am

Post by BBmolla »

^If a SOAD lynch goes through and he flips scum I will gladly let myself be lynched the next day. Depending on the situation of course; I'm not letting myself get lynched in MYLO/LYLO.

Shii why do you think SOAD is scum?
@thesupertriomusical on Instagram, come see it if you’re in LA area, I wrote it!

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