Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[Zdenek]

I'm a CG commoner.

[MaguaofIllusion]

I'm a CG commoner.

Look a VT claim! Hammer it home!!!!

[Zdenek]

Spoiler: zde's next wall on tammy

Almost every single thing you have brought against me has been your willful and deliberate mischaracterization of my actions and words. You've selectively quoted things to make me look a certain way which is completely opposite of my intent, and every time I've tried to explain it to you, you ignore it.

Examples or shut up.

LOL at the idea of our scum team. Seriously, there isn't an emoticon that can clearly show the fits of laughter this has put me into.

Okay Tammy. Who else is scum and what are the teams?

I didn't say that it changed my town read, just that it was a bit jarring.

Then what did you mean when you said jarring?

Are you suggesting that someone who does not share the same opinion of you is suspicious?

No. I've explained this already.

If you do happen to be town Zdenek, you really need to remember that this is a team game and you need to figure out a way to work with your team.

If you are you are town, then you are too stupid to be playing mafia. I do not know who is scum and I do not know who is on my team. The fact that you think that you are trying to make me look bad for this ridiculous reason is another reason that you are scum.

Can someone tell me how to post more than one quote in a post? Is there a multi-quote function or do you just copy and paste or something?

quote tags.
Also if you select text and hit the quote button, if will only quote the selected text.

There are more posts of me talking about AVox in the thread you know. There's also one more statement that you clipped so as not to include in this post. That statement would be me questioning your claim of AVox's buddying. INTERESTING how you fail to include that.

Direct me to the quote that I omitted that explains how your read on him developed. You asking a question, is not the same as you taking a stance.

How is post 419 relevant at all to your summary?

It shows Shadoweh saying that she thinks that AVox is scum, and you have no problem with her reasons when she gives them, and then later when I present them you say they are all crap. You don't even question her read.

I...changed my mind? That I remembered having an impression of someone that was suspicious from the old thread, but then after I got a chance to reread that thread...changed my mind?

Then explain how your read changed.

Spoiler: zde's wall on tammy before that

2. Nice of you to once again clip the portion where I tell you that what you said about AVox was crap. I never once denied agreeing with you that his fearmongering statement was bad, but once again, I'm within my rights as a rational human being to believe that just because I agree with you on one aspect of a read does not mean that I have to agree with you on the entire read.

I'd like to summarize Tammy's positions on AVox throughout the game, just so that they are clear to everyone. Hopefully, they will also make clear one of the reasons why Tammy is scum.

MoI: I have actually, he was scum in the first Newbie 1180 we played together. Unfortunately Tigers ate everything after Day 1 so you can't see exactly how British he is. (Or that he's scum. O_o DarthYoshi is his partner). I've read him as town since Post #164. He sounds downright goofy in it and the language is the same he used in NY 147 Vanillaside. (which does not exist -_-) Basically as town he's not careful with his language.

Sigh. Rereading the old thread I actually had these same concerns about Lemon just being an easy target. I supose for a scum he'd be pretty committed to pissing people off, and he has actually put down an original vote now. I will entertain the idea that he's the same class as Norman right now.

Obviously Bards. Only bards could be this useless.

On the other hand I also recall the problems Zdenek is talking about with AVox. And agreeing with them. And thinking Zdenek was town. <_< Rereading is your friend!

##Unvote
##Vote: AVox

Cut: Norman stop posting.

I kind of want to vote you just for what I bolded. I've played a bard before and was anything but useless.

I want to put this here to demonstrate the severe asymmetry in Tammy's responses. Here she says nothing about AVox or the reasons that Shadoweh thinks that he might be scummy.

AVox - Didn't like his attitude in the last thread and certainly don't like that he hasn't made an appearance here yet.

AVox shows up in her top three scum list.

I agree that the fearmongering quote was bad. It's one of the things I don't like about Avox.

She agrees with me about the fear mongering.

Oh MoI - I said that AV was 3rd on my scum reads earlier. I retract that now. I've had chance to re-read him in the original thread. I still don't like his position nor do I like his attitude or the fact that he hasn't shown up, but obnoxious doesn't mean scum and I want to see what he has to offer. I like some of what he says, and am really hating the two that are on his wagon.

Now she backtracks. Still saying that she doesn't like his position and she's vague about the things that she likes. This is an incredibly weak argument for changing a read.

4. Why should I vote AVox? Because you say so? Give me a better reason than OMGUS. Give me a better reason than the crap you provided

Is where she finishes off.


This represents an irrational change of a read, and it's one of the reasons that Tammy is scum.

Those posts are not the same. One outlines how Tammy's read on AVox changed without justification and the deals with Tammy's inadequate response to that and other things.

[Zdenek]

MoS, it's here. You jump to make an ill founded attack on Feysal for being crazy or stupid immediately after he posts his case on MoI.

Feysal you crazy if you seriously going to bother discussing whether or not MoI is actually MoI + Magua. I'm pretty sure the two of them would throw a ragefit if someone stole this hydra account name before they got to it. It's fairly obviously them, especially since MoI has already accidentally posted in the thread under his own account.

Derp more, please.

[kondi2424]

No. VOTE: Foxace

MoI, why didn't you react that way with Fox's VT claim?

[Zdenek]

Since you have some experience with him, would you say that Zdenek is a player with easily distinguishable town and scum styles?

I only have the one game where I saw Zdenek as town, but I have played against him as scum three times. Based on those, my opinion of his scum play is that it is cautious to the point of being lurky. Currently he is being rather more proactive and belligerent than I'm used to seeing from him as scum.

To give a short answer, I believe his styles are quite distinct, and this is far more likely to be him as town.

Ok, the reason I asked was that in AFFC he was lurky/unreadable scum and I wanted to get an idea whether that was Zdenek's standard scum game and whether he plays that way as town. The reason I picked Zdenek to meta-attack at the start of the old thread was because I wanted to push him out of the same style if he happened to be scum again. If his normal scum style is passive, I think he could well be scum out of his comfort zone this game, and trying too hard to play against his established meta by forcing aggression based on weak arguments.

Vote: Zdenek

Which of my arguments is weak?

[Zdenek]

Anyway, since no one will listen to me about Tammy.

Unvote
Vote MaguaofIllusion

[kondi2424]

lol VOTE: Zdenek

Would you rather yourself get lynched than Foxace? Because that's pretty much all that's happening.

MoI should still answer my question.

[MaguaofIllusion]

MoI should still answer my question.

What question?

[MaguaofIllusion]

MoI, why didn't you react that way with Fox's VT claim?

Nevermind, found it.

So you are asking why I didn't react to Foxace's VT claim when he was at like L-4 with anything other than keeping our vote on him as opposed to why I highlighted Zdenek's super-early claim when he was at like L-11?

If that's the case you have answered your own question.

[Pine]

With the amount of time left, there's no way we'll rally support for anyone but Foxace today. Maybe if there'd been more enthusiasm for Zdenek, but there isn't. Besides, this doubles as a policy lynch if it's wrong.

Unvote
Vote: Foxace

[Jackal711]

With the amount of time left, there's no way we'll rally support for anyone but Foxace today. Maybe if there'd been more enthusiasm for Zdenek, but there isn't. Besides, this doubles as a policy lynch if it's wrong.

Unvote
Vote: Foxace

FWIW I do support a Zdenek lynch, but left my vote on Foxace cause he's the most likely candidate for a day 1 lynch.

Zdenek's attacks and case on Tammy (who I believe is town) over the past few days read to me as scum trying to push a mislynch on a townie that could appear scummy if things are presented in the right manner.

[Jackal711]

Edit by Double Post:

VOTE: Zdenek

[mastin2]

Guys, I know some of you might have a sense of humor which is a little bit strange, but a Zdenek wagon makes a really bad April Fools' Day joke.

Zdenek is not getting lynched today.

Or any day, if I have my way.

Fox is.

[MaguaofIllusion]

Zdenek is not getting lynched today.
Or any day, if I have my way.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that your reads will govern what happens.

You perhaps need to adjust that expectation. Zdenek isn't Town and needs rope.

[mastin2]

No, he is. This is his town play. I've seen him do everything he's done in this game as town. Not only is he town by meta, he's also town by play; his posts make a lot of sense, he says a lot of good things, he's scumhunting legitimately, has good suspects, raises lots of valid points...

Seriously, he's town.

[mastin2]

Not to mention, he's got at MOST 5 votes.

Fox has 10.

And I will push HARD to make sure Zdenek doesn't gain any more. He. is. not. scum. He's one of the most obv-town players in this game, and has been from the moment I saw him posting as I'd expect him to if he were town.

[MaguaofIllusion]

No, he is. This is his town play. I've seen him do everything he's done in this game as town. Not only is he town by meta, he's also town by play; his posts make a lot of sense, he says a lot of good things, he's scumhunting legitimately, has good suspects, raises lots of valid points...

Seriously, he's town.

1. Yup meta is complete bullshit. So strike 1.
2. Um whut? Scum-hunting legitimately? He's piled on a load of points that aren't accurate and cropped posts out of context in making bad attacks.

So let's get a list -

1. What points that are 'good' has he raised. I want post references.
2. He has good suspect? Um this is multi-scum so even if that was true (which it isn't IMO) it's not a Town tell. List his good suspects.

Hop to it Mastin. Clock is ticking.

[MaguaofIllusion]

And I will push HARD to make sure Zdenek doesn't gain any more. He. is. not. scum. He's one of the most obv-town players in this game, and has been from the moment I saw him posting as I'd expect him to if he were town.

Obv-Town? Lulz. Get your scum-dar checked Mastin it is clearly broken.

[mastin2]

1. Yup meta is complete bullshit.

Not in my experience. I might not have that many games with Zdenek (I can only think of two or three), but I have enough to know the difference between his town self and his scum self without looking at the games.

This is his town self.

2. Um whut? Scum-hunting legitimately?

Yes. You need only look at his early posts to tell this--old thread and new.

1. What points that are 'good' has he raised. I want post references.

This'll take a while to compile. 'Cause quite frankly, I've agreed with almost everything he's said; it'd be easier to list the points he's raised that I DON'T agree with.

2. He has good suspect? Um this is multi-scum so even if that was true (which it isn't IMO) it's not a Town tell. List his good suspects.

Let's compare.

- MoI
- Tammy
- MoS

- Foxace
- Empking
- LMP

His list...

LynchMePls
Tammy
sorgster
Jackal711 (via Malee)
Foxace26
MoS

...To my list. Four names in common. Plus, of those not the same, he has one as Empking, who quite frankly I'm not getting a townread on, with him only being town via POE. Meaning the only, ONLY read I disagree with is his scumread on you.

Like I said. I REALLY don't see what the issue with Zdenek is. He's awesome and incredibly town.

[MaguaofIllusion]

This'll take a while to compile. 'Cause quite frankly, I've agreed with almost everything he's said; it'd be easier to list the points he's raised that I DON'T agree with.

Yes, you are going to need to do this. I want on record what of his stances you 'agree' with. No, not passively showing what you disagree with. I want you committing to actual stances you will defend.

I not you don't address the fact that he's spent most of the day cropping posts out of context which is scummy as fuck. Do you not agree that selective taking single sentances from posts to show 'scum play' and ignoring whole paragraphs that counteract his accusations is scummy as hell?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Also Mastin - you dodged the point about this being Multi-scum and having overlapping scum reads not being a Town tell. Why is that?

[Tammy]

Tammy also should require no explanation. Tammy's posts in the original were horribad, and gave me an instant scumread.

What about the one post I made in the original thread, besides the joke vote, was horribad? I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the possible set up of the game and weighing the pros and cons of whether we should claim. I've never played in a game this large or with such a complicated set up, and I realize that maybe some of my thoughts were stupid, but I didn't think it was horribad. I thought I made a couple pretty good points for why we shouldn't mass claim so that town would have the best chance to win.

Interesting Mastin. Since you're around, I'd actually like you to answer the question. I find it interesting that you ignored it as you were around and responded to two other people's questions after I posed this questions to you.

You ignoring it reads to me like you don't know what to say because you decided to think I'm scum for a crap reason and know you did. This especially appears so as you look like you're checking with AV concerning the issue.

You say when asked to explain my scum read that there needs no explanation. You also state that my posts were horribad in the original thread. This is very interesting to me because of how incorrect it is. There were at total of three posts by me in the original thread.

One was a joke vote on LMP in which I forgot to include the word vote. The second was correcting that mistake. - Are these posts horribad? I mean I suppose you could jump on me for forgetting to use the word vote, but as my usual site votes with a bold without using the word vote, it was a simple slip, and cannot be a contender for the posts (note the plural) that were horribad.

So, we come to the one post I had in the original thread in which I gave an opinion on LMP's attitude and his vote and turn my joke vote into a real vote. I then discuss my opinions of the set up.

Now as I say in my question to you, what about that one post was horribad? Maybe it has a stupid idea in it, but I'm failing to see how it's horribad, and that you haven't bothered to answer my question to you, it looks like you can't explain it either.

Not only that, you refer to the multiple posts in the thread that were horribad. There is only one post that could be a contender for this horribad position you've taken, so the very fact that you say "her posts were horribad" looks like you didn't actually take the time to think about it. It looks like you thought that saying my scum read needs no explanation and my posts were horribad, which is incorrect in number, would be an valid explanation for what looks like you coming up with my name at random.

[brizingre1]

We're really running out of time now... I would prefer a Fox lynch over a Zd lynch but would vote for either to avoid a no lynch.

[brizingre1]

And

@MoI

Why did you make this post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3942494, why is it different from the Fox claim?