Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[BBmolla]

AV was a terrible block choice from a town perspective

...Why, I think he's scum

[brizingre1]

VOTE: Regfan

Um... Why?

I'll hop on the Mastin wagon, is playing a lot like oppurtunistic scum.

VOTE:Mastin

@ Briz

- A response to 1) would be nice. As for 2) what you asked Kondi was quite subjective therefore it'd be hard to tell if he was lying or not. Regards to 3) I find policy lynching scummy as it allows scum to easily jump on wagons and claim "I'm PLing" which makes them able to blend in decently without PL votes and compared to the other votes yours was more awkwardly placed + I know that MoI PLs as both town and scum whereas I have no idea on your meta on that front at all.

My response to 1 is later in this post.

2. Fair point but you still haven't answered the question - what possible benefit could scumkondi gain from lying about Norman? And anyway, surely this is bad town play, not neccesarily scum play

3. There were several votes on Norman at the time, I wasn't the only one doing it by a long stretch, and how was my vote more 'awkwardly placed'?

@ Briz - 1. I understand reads change over time however the massive amount of scum reads you've claimed to have don't read as genuine, it seems more like an attempt to keep yourself open to vote almost anyone by rotating them on and of your list. Stating you're willing to vote any "Lurker" involves stating intention to vote almost half the playerlist alone. Also while we're at it some things you might want to explain why Mhork and Moneybags appears on the second list but not the first.

This game has been reallly chaotic and disjointed so far - look at Norman - look at Tammy and Zdenek - look at Tammy and Zar. Almost 50% of the original playerlist have been replaced. Throughout D1, I had strong scum reads on Foxace and Pine - they were on both lists, while everybody else was fairly minor, and sorry but now can't really remember why I had scum reads on Lord Mhork and Money, can reread and explain why if you really want me to.

[PeregrineV]

Also the person I roleblocked may be able to confirm me.

AV was a terrible block choice from a town perspective

...Why, I think he's scum

Please clear this up.

[chesskid3]

hrngg not dead ---> town with bad reads?

I THINK NOT SIRRAH

[Haze]

Briz's vote seems bad.

At any rate

VOTE: BBMolla

[BBmolla]

Also the person I roleblocked may be able to confirm me.

AV was a terrible block choice from a town perspective

...Why, I think he's scum

Please clear this up.

If he denies it, I get lynched, I flip town, bam, scum caught.

[Haze]

^ That makes no sense.

If AV was VT then he wouldn't know whether or not he was RB'd. Same if he was the Maf Goon.

You flipping town =/= AV scum.

Or have I misunderstood.

[BBmolla]

^ That makes no sense.

If AV was VT then he wouldn't know whether or not he was RB'd. Same if he was the Maf Goon.

You flipping town =/= AV scum.

Or have I misunderstood.

No shit.

If he has an ability he can confirm me. If he has an ability and denies he was roleblocked, he's scum.

[Haze]

So you intend to out him regardless if he's town or scum?

And what's stopping him from claiming vanilla?

[BBmolla]

So you intend to out him regardless if he's town or scum?

And what's stopping him from claiming vanilla?

*shrug*

You could just tell him exactly what he should do as scum, being anti-town in the process.

[Empking]

I doubt very much that this is actually a productive conversation.

[CooLDoG]

Investigated chesskid, roleblocked. On my way to practice, post later

What a waste of an investigation

Why didn't you check BB?????? WHY DID YOU NOT CHECK A CLAIM????

vote:pine

This troll dies today.

While it's awesome that Shadoweh came up scum, I'm really sad that people actually bought BBmolla's bullshit. His claim stinks to high heaven, and it's waaaaaaaay too convenient given Pine's claim. I'm strongly leaning toward him being the real roleblocker or scumbuddies with the real roleblocker.

Vote: BBmolla

Also, I've been musing over Shadoweh's claim since I caught up on the thread today. I think that Shadoweh was trying to draw out a doc counterclaim (thank god that didn't happen), and that that's why greenknight died, because he came out so strongly against the fake claim. I would also speculate that Shadoweh's team is the one whose kill failed Night 1, and that it was Shadoweh trying to kill Tammy. I think there's a decent chance that she claimed Tammy as her target in case someone had tracked/watched her Night 1. In my mind at least it makes me more comfortable with the thought of Tammy being town, since I find her unlikely to be Shadoweh's scumbuddy.

Agree. My internet was down during the BB claim so I couldn't comment then. Here is what I think about BB/Pine...

I think pine is scum. Put simply. His use of his role makes no sense from a town perspective at all. His role is more useful to scum than town. And he refuses to investigate any claims, the only town usage for the role. Every night he claims to be role block, and it just soooo happens that BB comes out and claims that HE DID NOT RB pine. Which is obviously what one would say if forced to claim a role blocker role. This means that there would have to be:
1 town ethical cop
1 town RB
1 Scum RB

Two role blocker, one scum and one town? Has there ever been a game like that? What is the actual likelihood of that?

I think both pine and BB are on the same team, and have the town not realizing what is happening. Our town is so derpy that they could fall for this.

Lynch pine, win the game. Simple as that.

Also whoever is actually roleblocking Pine is stupid as hell, there's no point in blocking him.

Unless you are scum.

Also the person I roleblocked may be able to confirm me.

...As a roleblocker. Which is a common scum role, which you want to out an information role for.

Stupid or scummy?

Scummy because it would seem to imply that he isn't worried about if his actions are hurting town, even in the idea of hiding/protecting power roles. Seems like he was worried that we wouldn't believe his claim.

Why would I roleblock someone who I think is town.

Because you are actually probably not town.

more later. Damn, this thread moves fast.

[Moneybags]

Wow.....
If we're not lynching BB or Mastin, that^ goes next.

[Junpei]

1 town ethical cop
1 town RB
1 Scum RB

Why are you assuming that BBmolla scum = BBmolla RB? Why do you think he's a roleblocker at all..?

[Regfan]

For the record scum roleblocker AND town roleblocker both being in a game isn't that uncommon at all.

@ Faraday -

Can you explain the Nacho/AV scum read to me because my scum read on AV is growing much much weaker and I have a weakish town read on Nacho despite his BB-vote and change when the wagon shifted. I can see your Pere scum read now, his vote yesterday and his "Lets go hunt Shadowehs partners" with no follow up on that read as scummy. Also I don't have a scum read on Junpei though I can see why you might FoS him.

Oh also what do you make of Feysals final post and vote yesterday because it's bugging me a lot right now.

@ MoS -

I don't think BB is the roleblocker that blocked Pine, if he were I doubt he'd say "Pine wasn't the person I blocked today" instantly outright given that there's a chance he'd be tracked to Pine and/or Pine was watched catching him visiting. I also think he's town and I recommend you go and read my thoughts on him yesterday and state what you disagree with exactly.

@ Mastin

- I actually can understand

some

of your reasons for your 180 flip on BB however there's a few things I want help understanding;
1) Can you link me to a game where you've changed your reads due to not dying N1/N2 as town because the "I'm wrong since I didn't die" is bullshit.
2) If Tammy isn't mafia and you think BB is now, what are your overall changed reads?
3) Why not elaborate on your change of thoughts in your vote post?

@ Briz -

ScumKondi would have the benefit of re-directing your suspicion. For instance if he said that this isn't how Norman played as town you'd be more inclined to FoS Norman which is good for Kondi-Scum if Norman is town which is why asking him a question as subjective as that makes no sense if you suspect Kondi. Also I've stated how your vote was awkardly placed, it was done after he was yelling "LYNCH ME" which was a pretty big town-tell for one and for two it means that you can just say 'he told me to!' if questioned about it. Full case on Briz coming up in a few hours. For now though;

Vote: Briz

Overall Reads

[Town]

Tammy - Tiph - Zdenek - Chesskid - Cooldog - BBmolla --- Pine -- Haze - Money -- Empking - MoS - Shadow1 -- Nacho

[

Junpei

]

- Feysal - LB - AVox ---- Pere --- Mastin ----- Briz -

[Scum]

[Lost Butterfly]

Don't like Feysal's vote at all. Seemed half hearted at best. Don't think he looks particularly good and don't like the fact apart from the early theory discussion he's been less of a presence in this thread - he's really good at being able to talk theory but I don't think his scum game is as strong as his town game outside of that and I'm seeing stuff I think is more likely feysal scum than town.

AV/Nacho are still kind of meh. I actually thought AV looked really bad at the end of yesterday *shrug*. Nacho less so, but still scummy by POE? Or something. I need to talk my suspects through with Mina, to see which ones she agrees with and doesn't - particularly Junpei for fairly obvious reasons.

I actually don't hate mastin's post, surprisingly. It does make my eyes agog that he thinks he's a priority nightkill in this game. I mean I certainly wouldn't kill him as scum because he had a scum read on me, he has very little credibility within the town.

Pine's night actions continue to be very fucking stupid. They're starting to worry me. What do you think of them, Regfan? The CHESSKID investigation is hella dumb. I remember him faking retarded night actions in AFFC, too, as scum.

[Seacore]

Vote Count 3.1

Regfan (1) -

Shadow1psc

mastin2 (6) -

Lost Butterfly, Zdenek, BBmolla, chesskid3, Tammy, brizingre1

BBmolla (5) -

Junpei, Mastermind of Sin, Moneybags, mastin2, Haze

PeregrineV (1) -

Empking

brizingre1 (1) -

Regfan

Not Voting (7) - Pine, CooLDoG, PeregrineV, Feysal, AurorusVox, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath

(expired on 2012-05-09 00:00:00) until deadline
With 21 alive, 11 are needed to secure a lynch.

[TiphaineDeath]

I would very much like to hear what AV has to say about the current situation before I make any major descisions for today.

[Shadow1psc]

CD, Pine is not scum. He makes terrible decisions with his role, but he is not scum. You however, I still believe are scum, but no one is interested in you, they'd rather chase down Mastin for being weird, or BB for his also terrible play/claim.

For those questioning my vote for Regfan, I just wanted it marked. We're at the beginning of another long day, and I don't believe he is town. I have no real arguments towards this just yet, he just pings me very wrong. CD's logic would be sound, but Pine is town, and because I believe CD is scum trying to turn our information around on us, I'm going to UNVOTE: ;
VOTE: CoolDog

[AurorusVox]

Vote: BBMolla

BB why do you want me to confirm whether you are a RB? Rolefishing much?

Also willing to vote Pine - after all that discussion yesterday and he STILL investigates an unclaimed?

[Shadow1psc]

Let me ask AV, and anyone else, is your problem with Pine's choices, or do you believe they are safe 'fake' choices?

[AurorusVox]

I believe they don't make sense from a town perspective: N1 fine, you can forgive based on him not understanding why he has that role (if he actually has it). But last night, no, we'd discussed why he should target players whose alignment was known and he STILL didn't do it.

The blocked part is what makes it safe. Unsatisfactory.

[mastin2]

I'll hop on the Mastin wagon, is playing a lot like oppurtunistic scum.

And BBMolla's vote on me isn't opportunistic...how?

Cooldog:

So you think both Pine and BBMolla are scum. So why not join us on BBMolla rather than Pine?

Spoiler: rambling to reg

1) Can you link me to a game where you've changed your reads due to not dying N1/N2 as town?

Probably. I don't really remember any specific game where it'd happen, but there's likely a whole lot of 'em in New York. It's happened enough that it forms a HUGE part of the basis for my Thoughts While Isolated topic. Something which (as--among others--Junpei has pointed out) shows exactly what my problem is, in that I'm good at theory and say some pretty solid stuff, but suck at putting it into practice. The advice in there is (apparently) quite solid, but I have trouble following it all the time. And as part of my effort to better myself, that post has become effectively my bible for scumhunting.

If you still really want me to track down examples from specific games, I'm sure I can dig a couple up. I think it happened in OxyMoron, it mighta happened in Tricycle, it probably happened in that one large which GreyICE was in that I sucked, it's happened in AT LEAST one game as a hydra (possibly Palisade, but most likely, Calcifer), and I'm pretty sure that there are some notable aversions where the scum specifically decided NOT to kill me BECAUSE my reads didn't change as well. (I'm a grizzled old veteran. I've played in so many games the details of each game start to blur. )

2) If Tammy isn't mafia and you think BB is now, what are your overall changed reads?

I haven't double-checked the facts, yet, but I've been working off of Day3 play so far with my new reads. (This strategy is one of the things which allowed me to immediately nail the entire scumteam in Underground Mafia, after all--from just the content on the last five pages, I got correct reads on the entire playerlist. There's a reason that game's my strongest performance ever. ) I've got a kinda scummish read on Junpei, but it's not solid. Butterfly continues to ping my scumdar. Moneybag's posts look more like IioA than scumhunting, so he caught my eye as well. BBMolla's obviously also there. That'd leave one more. I'm thinking maybe Cooldog, but I'm not positive.

3) Why not elaborate on your change of thoughts in your vote post?

I can't remember the exact reason, but I believe I was short on time. The thought of being lazy also crossed my mind, as did the thought of waiting to see reactions to my vote. So probably, my thought process was,
"Alright, I'm leaving soon. I suppose I *could* put together reasons, but that'd be a lot of work when I have other things I'd rather be doing before I leave. Besides, I'll get better reactions this way."

[brizingre1]

@ Briz -

ScumKondi would have the benefit of re-directing your suspicion. For instance if he said that this isn't how Norman played as town you'd be more inclined to FoS Norman which is good for Kondi-Scum if Norman is town which is why asking him a question as subjective as that makes no sense if you suspect Kondi. Also I've stated how your vote was awkardly placed, it was done after he was yelling "LYNCH ME" which was a pretty big town-tell for one and for two it means that you can just say 'he told me to!' if questioned about it. Full case on Briz coming up in a few hours. For now though;

Vote: Briz

Overall Reads

[Town]

Tammy - Tiph - Zdenek - Chesskid - Cooldog - BBmolla --- Pine -- Haze - Money -- Empking - MoS - Shadow1 -- Nacho

[

Junpei

]

- Feysal - LB - AVox ---- Pere --- Mastin ----- Briz -

[Scum]

How many times do I need to say it - Norman was a policy lynch, scum/town had nothing to do with it, he was playing like a moron and annoying the hell out of most people.
Regarding the Kondi thing, you have a fair point but I still don't see it as a particular scum tell - I was interested in kondi's opinion on Norman - you seem to be blowing this way out of proportion.

[mastin2]

I'll hop on the Mastin wagon, is playing a lot like oppurtunistic scum.

And BBMolla's vote on me isn't opportunistic...how?

Spoiler: further rambling

Speaking of that thread, I'm thinking of doing a followup. The thread gives good general advice on how to think during a game--but not exactly how to play. It gives town and scum plans, and ways to enact plans, but not ways to actually put them into motion. Now I've done plenty of threads on how to play as town, but all of them focused on a few specific subjects and not being as fleshed out. And there's no equivalent scum threads. (It shows you how I think, though--I think as town even as scum! ) I think it'd be a good idea to compile it all together and see if I can make something worthy of going hand-in-hand with the thread.

Though that said, I really need to touch up the town day one section of said thread, and remove the spoilers around it when I've cleaned it up; that section's STILL an absolute mess.