Open 402 -- Hard Boiled (Game Over!)

[Arugula]

arugula post 254... my god that scummy post.

argula post 268
either 1) telling his scumbuddies to hammer
or 2) stating obvious

Why is 254 scummy? I was just going with the alliance.

1. That (as Llama already said) would mean that there are four scum members, which I highly doubt in a game this size. And I only said them because they have been acting trollish (rasp not so much, but I was right with BW as he came back and voted Thomith)
2.

Alright. I have a feeling Kass, rasp, or BW will hammer so I won't vote yet. Should Thomith claim or what?

How is that stating the obvious? I didn't really say anything definitive that I would consider obvious.

Also, would it kill you to use proper grammar?

I'm starting to feel uneasy about how this Thomith wagon came up so quickly.

[LlamaFluff]

How does my post think thomith is town.
what the hell is contrived.

Your post suggest Thomith is town because of everything I said. Your first line suggests Thomith-town or four scum, your other line suggests Thomith is town because why would we quicklynch someone who hammered scum?

contrived more or less means artificial, fake, etc

i have many scum suspects............
if u think the person you are voting is scum, why did you unvote to prevent 'shregans'.
your inconsistant there.

I dont want a hammer without a claim for one, no matter what he is. The claim says Thomith is town though by virtue of the VT rule. So we are not going to be lynching him today.

The VT rule applies to the first player to claim VT in most setups, and it means they are very likely to be town, especially in opens. The theroy states that because it essentially resigns themselves to a lynch without doing anything to out who is a PR, they are more likely than not town. Scum would benifit from a fakeclaim even if they get lynched without a counter because they should get some reactions that at least would suggest someone is not that role. This game in particular for a reason I will talk about later scum need to do something early or they will lose fast. Thomith being lynched as scum after a VT claim basically just leaves town in the strongest possible position we could be in, so chances are that its a true claim, especially as he showed little will to do anything to save himself post claim.

I would be willing to lynch andrew or BwB right now.

[Arugula]

Llama that was a beautiful post.
Seriously though, he is right.

Andrew, you did imply that Thomith was town in your post, as Llama explained. Care to explain why?

[Kassadin]

because he is

[Arugula]

Why?

His wagon does not sit comfortably with me, and I am starting to rethink my original conclusion, but I want some reasoning.

[Venmar]

Unvote

- I am somewhat willing to believe Thomith is an actual VT. Everyone else should at least unvote as well if they believe this. I am not in favor of any hammering at the moment, we do have a claim and it in no way seems to scream scum. Instead, i will take my vote off of him and place it on my second scummiest player ( after BwBurke ).

Vote: Andrew94

[andrew94]

Well llama, you stated sheenanigans as your reason of unvoting

therefore

YOU THINK THAT THOMITH IS TOWN AS WELL. long before he claimed
Vt.
I was responding to your post and querying what sheenanigans could happen

I listed an example- a quickhammer. I assumed that if someone quickhammered
Thomith town, we would then lynch the quickhammer. There is no reason for you to
unvote due to 'sheenanigans'. I for one, never believe any 'OH SHIT I DIDNT REALISE I HAMMERED' claims.


ok tech looks town again.

@Venmar, you agree that you are 'dioplomatic'. Why the hell would you care
about pissing anyone off, unless you are scum
YOur post 167 is NOT enough. It has already been said that he will vote when a votecount comes
YOU voted him anyway.

post 185, the main part of it was that you were sheeping.. you just
basically said 'yea this guy defended me im just gonna use that line'.

You apparently think that i have a bad case on you, so that means im your 2nd suspect, which means you vote for me over your first suspect? YOu also only asked me questions and have no solid case on me aside from you thinking that my case is shit
logic? voting 2nd > 1st?



oh btw looks at Bw's vote..




FOUR scum suspects, not FOUR scum members. If i list three, i would expect all three to be right, and since thats really hard, i can list more than three...
how is it not obvious
1) should thomith claim - OH DERP HE WONT CLAIM YEA
2) no shit kasss rasp or even bw might hammer, they're trolls.
and im using text language so yea, dont attack the person, attack the argument please.

argula more sheeping....
Argula, you feel uneasy at how this thomith wagon came up so quickly?
LOL?

Thomith (5) -- BK201, DCLXVI, TeChNoWC, Venmar, Lowman
bk- 'alliance'
dcl - 'so called alliance'
tech - ' so called alliance'
venmar - not in alliance i hope but someone (tech i think) wants him in
lowman - guy that placed him on L1
Llama- 'so called alliance' voted him earlier then unvoted (so i counted him)
argula- says he doesnt wanna vote yet etc etc (so i counted him)

ok so bk, dcl, tech , llama are in the 'alliance'
argula agrees with alliance.
SO THE ALLIANCE MADE THIS WAGON. ??? YOUR UNEASY ABOUT HOW THE WAGON CAME When the 'alliance' rolled it?




Kassadin directly says Thomith is town....

[Arugula]

The "alliance" is me, Llama, Nachomamma, and Venmar AFAIK, so right off the bat you are wrong. (Tech maybe, DCL just joined, so no) And you counted two people (Llama and I) who aren't even voting for him. Your argument is wrong.

Also, I'm asking you to stop using text language, I'm not attacking you. It just makes it easier to read.

I was asking if Thomith should claim yet, not if he should claim at all. Don't twist my words. And now you are assuming that the trolls are scum?

Lastly, I was more worried about how LowMan and BW just sheeped with no reasoning. That's what worried me the most. I'm not concerned about Kass or rasp hammering, as Kass thinks Thomith is town and rasp said he is voting for the scummiest player, (which I guess is not Thomith).

You are trying to make arguments out of nothing and they don't make sense.

VOTE: andrew94

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah andrew... DCL is not in the alliance, im actually pretty uneasy over him. Techno is also not in the alliance. So there goes whatever point you were trying to make or something.

Would like to see "where I think Thomith is town well before VT claim" though, since I unvoted to stop a quickhammer that could hit a PR because we have you, rasp and Kass none of whom I trust at all not to do something just to piss everyone else off.

andrew is essentially unreadable for me since I usually just want him dead because I dislike his play that much, but I think being exceedingly pissy is a town tell from him. Im almost thinking BwB could be a better lynch given how he keeps popping up on Thomith wagon and I have no idea what reasoning he is using to justify that move at all.

unvote
Vote BwB

[Arugula]

An unreadable player like andrew could be a bitch at LyLo, so my vote stays. Also, I've learned that pissy is not always a town tell. He could be frustrated that the town alliance is taking control.

[LlamaFluff]

An unreadable player like andrew could be a bitch at LyLo, so my vote stays. Also, I've learned that pissy is not always a town tell. He could be frustrated that the town alliance is taking control.

I will easily come back to an andrew vote in part because it would make the game better no matter what he flips.

There are a few players though here (DeltaWave) who are much more of an asshat when they are town which is really annoying.

Andrew completely missing the point and making the alliance much bigger then it is in his post makes me think town though because I think scum would actually know more about what I am thinking here. It could be me applying how I play as scum to try and catch scum, but I tend to be far better at knowing what is going on as scum than town, especially with smaller details.

He is on a shortlist but I prefer BwB at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

Eh, I'm generally against alliances. If scum were to be at the core of one....I think it would be absolutely devastating for town, and I can't say I like all the people that are kind of in this alliance.

Absolutely devastating? How so?

My problem with ven is NOT that he did RQS, it is that he RQS questions were helpful to scum and not helpful to town.

I know. I was commenting that I didn't really see a whole lot of scumbags presenting RQS questions in order to get information to help themselves win; usually, it's just a misguided move. Why do you think Venmar's RQS questions were malevolent?

Because you had other scum reads that were better than a (oh he isn't posting enough by page two) scum read. I think a thomith vote would have been better justified at that point.

That's not what my case was about.

I feel it was because the points against him were blatantly obvious (at least to me.) And he just wouldn't address them.

Yes they were weak because it was page two, I guess my point was more that it was rather pointless to be having reads out like that since they were weak. I don't expect people to have strong reads at the end of page two.

They were blatantly obvious to you, sure. That doesn't mean he necessarily understood as much. As far as putting weak reads out like that, I was doing that to challenge Venmar's notions about random voting not giving any information.

Also, LowMan, if you weren't mindlessly bandwaggoning in other games, I would be suspicious, but I still want you to explain your vote on Thomith.

Just throwing a vote on who I currently think is likely to be scum. I don't have time atm for a proper read-through of what's happened while I was gone or writing a long post explaining everything.

you wouldn't write a long post explaining everything anyways. why do you think Thomith is scum?

I really am not liking how Venmar is constantly making a large case against someone everytime Llama switches his vote.

and i'm still waiting for bwb to return.

[Venmar]

^ That is just a coincidence. Thomith was my top scum read and since i think there is some incentive to believe he is town due to his claim, i moved on to Andrew who just happened to my second pick for a lynch, BwBurker being third. The reason Llama changed his vote to him is a coincidence. It is making me look worse, but it is up to you to believe me on this or not.

[Om of the Nom]

Votecount 1.11

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2012-06-08 14:40:00)

Venmar (3) -- andrew94, Thomith, raspberrylicious
andrew94 (2) -- Venmar, Arugula
BwBurke (3) -- Kassadin, nachomamma8, LlamaFluff
Thomith (5) -- BK201, DCLXVI, TeChNoWC, Lowman, BwBurke

(L-2!)

Not voting -- No-one

[TeChNoWC]

@Andrew: Not sure where your getting your reads from, because I NEVER wanted an alliance in the first place, and I have never been considered for it. I never said anything about wanting Venmar or any player in any alliance.

I need to do some catch up reads as there has been a lot of posts since I was last on, but if Llama could re-clarify his case on andrew that would be good. I disagree with his reasoning on the VT rule. Many scum claim VT to escape counter claims, especially in a setup with determined roles. It doesn't change my read on Thomith at all.

Your questioning earlier Llama about whether I wanted a Thomith or Burke lynch concerns me now in light of recent events. I saw the reason behind your unvote as randoms were voting and giving no reasoning, and Lowman put him on L-1 without claiming it. But in light of your defending Thomith now, it is making me think you were hesitant of a Thomith lynch and wanted to redirect attention to a Burke lynch, which you have now succeeded in doing.

I might be reading too much into this, but it does seem suspicious. Arugula's post 268 still concerns me greatly, and his flustered response even more so.

Also not sure why Venmar would vote his second scummiest read and not his first, particularly when there is still potential for a Burke wagon and lynch.

[Venmar]

My first was and probably still is Thomith. Not going for him because i can potentially believe in his claim.

[TeChNoWC]

My first was and probably still is Thomith. Not going for him because i can potentially believe in his claim.

You can 'potentially believe in his claim'?

This reads as a hypothetical defense of your stance, were you town. Like 'well I have the potential to believe it so you should consider that'.

Not sure this is how you meant it to read, but it seems sus.

You either believe it or you don't, or you are unsure. Which of the three?

[Venmar]

Unsure. Given i can see either result, i am unvoting for now. I know it is hard to take for granted since VT claims are the easiest ones to make, but again, i can see Thomith being town, but his scummy actions and moves at the same time kind of compensate for whatever towny feelings i have for him.

The only problem i see with Thomith being town is that his actions have not matched him to be town at all. He has said some scummy things and has not made many moves that would make me think he is town. However, i am unsure what to make of the claim right now so i am mostly unsure. I say 'I can potentially believe in his claim' because i at the same time i don't. I can live with a Andrew lynch for now.

[andrew94]

The "alliance" is me, Llama, Nachomamma, and Venmar AFAIK, so right off the bat you are wrong. (Tech maybe, DCL just joined, so no) And you counted two people (Llama and I) who aren't even voting for him. Your argument is wrong.

Also, I'm asking you to stop using text language, I'm not attacking you. It just makes it easier to read.

I was asking if Thomith should claim yet, not if he should claim at all. Don't twist my words. And now you are assuming that the trolls are scum?

Lastly, I was more worried about how LowMan and BW just sheeped with no reasoning. That's what worried me the most. I'm not concerned about Kass or rasp hammering, as Kass thinks Thomith is town and rasp said he is voting for the scummiest player, (which I guess is not Thomith).

You are trying to make arguments out of nothing and they don't make sense.

VOTE: andrew94

ok so the guy that claimed hider isnt in your alliance? lmao
-LEARN TO READ PLEASE. I SAID 'LLAMA VOTED EARLIER , THEN UNVOTED, SO I COUNT THAT AS A WILLINGLYNESS TO LYNCH' AND 'ARGULA SAYS HJE DOESNT WANNA VOTE YET SO I COUNTED HIM AS WELL AS A WILLINGNESS TO VOTE
WHY ARE YOU PURPOSELY IGNORING IT.

-lol why would you ask about the claim thing. from my point of view, you basically said
'i wanna vote him but i dont want trolls to hammer, oh and claim'
i never said all trolls were scum
hey argula, guess what, i would pick vig just to shoot your ass (if im that. (NOBODY REPLY TO THIS)). your dead scum to me now, too bad no1's listening


@llama i even said dcl isnt town for just making a catchup post, read my iso
i thought he was in alliance for some reason

well i read somewhere that someone said venma should be in alliance...


-about the quickhammer thing, as i said if someone quickhammers, that guy gets lynched the next day.
and if thomith is scum, well then....



@nacho yea venmar is just sheeping llama. no such thing as coincidence..


@tech i may have made mistake about you being in it

Unvote

- I am somewhat willing to believe Thomith is an actual VT. Everyone else should at least unvote as well if they believe this. I am not in favor of any hammering at the moment, we do have a claim and it in no way seems to scream scum. Instead, i will take my vote off of him and place it on my second scummiest player ( after BwBurke ).

Vote: Andrew94

My first was and probably still is Thomith. Not going for him because i can potentially believe in his claim.

anyone spot the inconsistancy?






ok new scum list

-venmar
-argula


maybe scum
-llama
-thomith
town
-tech

[Venmar]

Frustration and attitude are never good signs, Andrew.

My vote stays because Andrew has now become number 1 on my list, surpassing Thomith.

[TeChNoWC]

@Andrew: No I don't see the inconsistency, his language was unclear and he explained himself. I do find his wishy washy decision making concerning, but that's not necessarily a scumtell.

Weird that Arugula didn't put BK in his alliance list, yes, but I don't think that's telling of Arugula's alignment at all. Just a forgetful omission.

Can you please summarize your case on Arugula?
Venmar and Arugula are both sheeping Llama, Arugula even admitted to it. I don't see this as a scumtell, just that they find Llama a strong towntell. However, this 'alliance' thing is starting to bother me more and more, particularly that it seems to have a leader. I wouldn't care if the leader was confirmed town pro-town avid poster, town can get things wrong all the way to a scum victory, even ones that are aggro and committed to scumhunting; particularly when pushing the alliance through quicklynches and encouraging its members to trust the leader's logic and not think nor scumhunt for themselves. Plus this is a good excuse for scum to hide; if they feed off the pro townie the whole game, their actions become a mirror of his/hers, and make them harder to detect.

Just to make things clear because they don't seem to be: I don't want an invitation to the alliance and I would decline any given. I feel the idea is probably sincere and desires to improve scumhunting (though the jury is still out on that), but I just do not think it will. If anything it helps scum, and anything that limits town from scumhunting certain players is BAD.

[LowMan]

Unvote, Vote: Andrew94

[andrew94]

Frustration and attitude are never good signs, Andrew.

My vote stays because Andrew has now become number 1 on my list, surpassing Thomith.

Okay. You have an inconsistancy. first u say bbw is no1, and im no2
then u say no1 is thomith

so what happened to bbw?
You do not respond to my things, and you make some crap up , e.g. frustation are never good signs.
Ok so you never been frustrated before?

[andrew94]

Unvote, Vote: Andrew94

hey llama, now you know why vig is good?

[LlamaFluff]

Unvote, Vote: Andrew94

hey llama, now you know why vig is good?

You dont get to talk about people being VIs if you are suggesting the vig gets picked. Well you dont get to talk about it either way, but picking vig is basically playing against your win condition. If you think its best it just builds my resume of why you should be policy lynched for being a liability or scum in every game.

Vote BwB

Best lynch there is.