Mini 1327: Murder in the Louvre- Day 6

[Zar]

Hiraki, why did you unvote on D2?

I was able to relate with other ongoing games. Not going to say much more than that because that's just about as much as I can say.

<_<

But you said:

Wait a moment.

Detective, Tracker and Vig?

hold the fuck up

[shos]

..and here comes another scumslip by Hiraki. yay me?

and @ VI:
you wrote,
"(1) My Night action was actually circumvented last Night. Not that you'd know that, but it means I wouldn't be writing anything on the walls - as I said earlier."

and I want elaboration here. what are you talking about?

~~~
about my role:
I look like a rock, around the dimensions of a hand.
Nobody seems to be sure about where I came from, but the scientists are currently running tests to make sure what material I am made of.
I am not an item in the louvre

yet

, I am sitting in the dead director of the museum's office in a locked box, waiting till they choose/set up my place to be placed.
In certain times of the month I may get charged all of a sudden.

in other words this really doesn't give any information. except I may be having a period, lol.

[Vi]

VI

I'm too tired to daykill right now.

"(1) My Night action was actually circumvented last Night. Not that you'd know that, but it means I wouldn't be writing anything on the walls - as I said earlier."

and I want elaboration here. what are you talking about?

I'm talking about my Night action, and how someone stopped me from carrying it out.

Would you like more?

Fair enough @the description.

[Yosarian2]

To answer something further down, 8-3-1 was one of

the worst

Mini setups out there. Players and mods were both complaining about getting screwed by mislynching once and the Town never being able to recover. It's a big part of why Minis went up to thirteen players (which having an OSVig in kind of renders worthless). Etc. I should not have to be lecturing you on this.

Vi: Of course you don't have to lecture me about this. I understand setup theory just fine. But that doesn't change the fact that that setup has been played hundreds of times on mafiascum, it was probably the most common setup for years, and there's no reason to assume that a mod wouldn't run a variet on that theme again today (especially a mod who was around then, like SL). If you don't like it, then complain to the mod after the game is over.

Of course, a 13 player OSV setup only devolves into (8-3-1) if the vig misses, so the town has a pretty significant mathmatical edge over a normal 8-3-1. The fact that the vig is theoretically repeatable if they hit scum gives the town another mathmatical edge. And, of course, 9-2-1 is also possible here, which would totally eliminate all those balance problems.

Setup theory is great, Vi, but you have to actually be realistic and not think that all mods conform to your idea of what a setup should look like, especially not when you have so many counterexamples.

How do you figure?

Your role. St. George. Or whoever it was when I brought out links for pointing out what Hiraki was talking about. It describes a sculpture or whatever it's called. Not a living police chief.

I must have missed that, because I have no idea what you're talking about. My role is my role.

I really do want to lynch Magna today; I think that no matter if Vi is scum, if you are scum, or if you've both town, that he really has to be the second member of the scum team. What do you think about him, Nuwen? Usually you'd be all over going after someone who's lurked all game.

BECAUSE SHE'S SCUM YOU MORON
HOW MANY TIMES DURING A SINGLE GAME DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THIS BEFORE YOU GET IT
HOW MANY TIMES DURING A SINGLE GAME DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THIS BEFORE ANYONE GETS IT

Hint: I am trying to get a reaction about Magna today from both you and Nuwen, so when we lynch him and he flips scum, I will be able to figure out which one of you is his last partner, if either of you is.

Hint #2: that means it's time to bus him. gogogo

PPE:

I'm talking about my Night action, and how someone stopped me from carrying it out.

Interesting. So you're claiming that you were rolebocked?

That's really, really odd, considering that earlier today when you were trying to lynch me, you were saying that:

As for two blocked kills N1? Possible but generally unlikely, especially since Nuwen cried out for someone, anyone to claim a blocking role and got no response.

So...early today you were claiming that there was "no way" that there were two missed kills night 1 because if there was a roleblocker they would have claimed, and now you're saying that you knew that there was a roleblocker while you were making that argument? Explain to me what's going on here, because it looks to me like either you're not lying now, or else you were deliberately withholding key facts that you had earlier in order to make me look worse.

[shos]

^^ that might also just be a scumslip, you know. just might.

[Vi]

Cuttan down the quotes.

Re: setup theory - at this point I'm just done talking about it. I've already got a full plate of shouting into the wind.

Re: your role not being your role - This post. And evidently this is where Nuwen is getting her Martin name from.

Re: lol reactions about Magua - Enjoy the reaction of me not moving my vote from scum.

Re: blocked kills - I didn't say "no way". I said "possible but generally unlikely". Which in principle it is. And, again, three kills per Night, see first re: above.

Then again, looking at that again I'm reminded that someone DID claim a blocking role of sorts (Bulletproof).

[Yosarian2]

Cuttan down the quotes.

Re: setup theory - at this point I'm just done talking about it. I've already got a full plate of shouting into the wind.

...

"Shouting into the wind?" I don't even understand how you could disagree with me here. Your entire argument seems to be "I don't like the historically very common setup X because it's swingy, so this can't be setup X, because I don't like setup X". You do realize that you didn't get to review this game, right?

Re: your role not being your role - This post. And evidently this is where Nuwen is getting her Martin name from.

Interesting, and pretty impressive research.

You do realize that Hiraki got three different visions there, and it's unlikely that all 3 were about the same role, right? They may even have been sent by different people, if shos's role is any guide. The "cutting the cloak" thing probably was have been about Martin of Tours, but the "tricolor" thing most likely was not; I can't find any connection in that wikipedia article between Martin of Tours and the French tricolor flag, and considering that he lived during Roman times, I don't think that that "tricolor" vision could anything to do with him.

Also...it occurs to me that it's possible that more then one person targeted Elmo for a kill that night. That might help explain the missing kills, too. Not really sure why any scum would, but who knows.

Re: lol reactions about Magua - Enjoy the reaction of me not moving my vote from scum.

:tears hair out:

Vi, i'm trying to find a reason to not lynch you here, don't you get that?

Re: blocked kills - I didn't say "no way". I said "possible but generally unlikely". Which in principle it is. And, again, three kills per Night, see first re: above.

Then again, looking at that again I'm reminded that someone DID claim a blocking role of sorts (Bulletproof).

Yes. You knew there was a roleblocker, if you are telling the truth. There was a bulletproof claim. There is a dead "town night guard", whatever that is. And the scum seem to be avoiding killing the town info role that their buddy outed yesterday, Zar, probably because they're afraid of being stopped by a doctor.

That doesn't really answer my question, though. Early in the day today, when you were trying to cast doubt on my claim, you implied that there were probably no roleblockers in the game. Why would you do this if you knew that there was at least one?

[Zar]

Hey, Charter BTW, what were you doing out of your room?

[Zar]

Some tasty VCA! PT.1

This focuses on the town wagons that popped around D1.

Spoiler: D1 VC2

Day 1 votecount 2

UberNinja (5)

:

Zar

, Chiarosicada,

Furcolow

, shos,

Yosarian2

,

Quilford (3)

: charter, Nuwen,

kanyeknowsbest

Parama(2)

: Vi,

shos (2)

: diddin,

Parama

,

charter (1)

:

Quilford

Yosarian2 (1)

:

UberNinja

,

Not voting (0):

<3

With 13 players, 7 votes are required to lynch.

The top two wagons + Parama, all confirmed innocent wagons.

I wouldn't expect all of the scumteam to be in a single wagon with town voting all over the place.

So that makes a 3-man scumteam composed of Furcolow + Hiraki/Pirate/Chiaro + shos unlikely. In fact, given shos' interest in chopping Hiraki's head off all game, I'd be likely to believe Hiraki/shos is very unlikely.

Now, a 3-man team composed of Furcolow +1 of {shos/Hiraki} + 1 of {Charter/Vi/Nuwen} is far more probable. Especially since I doubt Nuwen/Charter team going out of their way consecutively voting to quickly build a wagon.

Let us continue:

Spoiler: D1 VC3

Day 1 votecount 3

shos (3):

diddin,

Parama

,

Furcolow

UberNinja

(3):

Zar

, Chiarosicada,

Yosarian2

,

Quilford (2):

Nuwen,

kanyeknowsbest

charter (1):

Quilford

diddin (1):

shos,

kanyeknowsbest (1):

UberNinja,

Parama (1):

Vi,

Vi (1)

: charter,

Not voting (0):

<3

With 13 players, 7 votes are required to lynch.

I still have to go after Furcoscum's reasoning to vote shos in that wagon; assuming shos were scum, I'm skeptical of the chances of a 2/3 scumbuddies seeding a partners wagon so early in game.

Although not impossible, the way I see it, shos/diddin are unlikely to be BOTH teamed with Furcolow; it's either Furcolow + Shos; OR Furcolow + diddin. I mean, the suspicion of shos had been carrying came from early game and I don't see anything in his play so condemning that would propel 2 scumbuddies to buss the hell out.

Charter is off the bandwagons by voting Vi. Not very informative of alignment.

Spoiler: D1 VC5

Day 1 votecount 5

Quilford

Elmo TeH AzN (4):

Nuwen,

kanyeknowsbest

,

Yosarian2

,

Furcolow

,

Parama (3):

Vi, Chiarosicada, shos,

shos (3):

diddin,

UberNinja, Parama,

Chiarosicada (2):

Zar

, charter,

Nuwen (1):

Elmo teh AzN

Not voting (0):

<3

With 13 players, 7 votes are required to lynch.

Elmo TeH AzN replaces Quilford.

Now, 349 is very interesting. CT Parama is the only wagon so far to be voted entirely by players whose alignment is dubious. The other top wagon? quilford/Elmo, another CT, live and kicking.

Nuwen and Furcolow are in this wagon together. Nothing rules them out as potential partners yet. Even if we go by disregarding his claim, looks unlikely to me that Yosarian is their partner. He could still be 3rd Party.

Charter is voting Hiraki. Not very informative of alignment.

[Vi]

Still quote cuttan.

In re: setup meta - I prefer not assuming that the mod is bad at game balance. It's not atypical for games that I'm in, but etc. I don't see this conversation going anywhere.

In re: Martin of Tours - The Tricolor is the only one that doesn't directly fit, and even then, Martin is strongly connected to France from what I remember.

In re: trying not to lynch me - I can see that. I'm exhausted from frustration but I'm not completely oblivious. And yet you seem to be oblivious from how I'm trying to get you TO lynch Nuwen. I've been trying to do this for three Days now. This is "if I had a bullet" territory, minus bullet. This is "1v1" territory, except those don't work. What more would I have to do to get a lynch on Nuwenscum?

In re: blocking roles - Unless I'm grossly mistaken about what I said, I did not imply that there were no Roleblockers in the game. I did say that it was unlikely for two kills to be blocked simultaneously.

[Yosarian2]

In re: Martin of Tours - The Tricolor is the only one that doesn't directly fit, and even then, Martin is strongly connected to France from what I remember.

Yeah, but the Tricolor is associated with the French Revolution specifically, and to a lesser extent with later periods. Defiantly would not associate a Roman-era Gaul Catholic saint with revolutionary France. I would guess that the tricolor is a specific reference to my role, and the Martin stuff is a reference to someone else. It would make no sense at all for Martin to be represented by a tricolor flag.

In re: blocking roles - Unless I'm grossly mistaken about what I said, I did not imply that there were no Roleblockers in the game. I did say that it was unlikely for two kills to be blocked simultaneously.

That was the impression I got when you said:

As for two blocked kills N1? Possible but generally unlikely, especially since Nuwen cried out for someone, anyone to claim a blocking role and got no response.

Me (and later Nuwen) were both specifically asking for *roleblockers* to claim; and by bringing that up, I assumed you were trying to prove that there weren't any roleblockers in this game or else they would have claimed.

[Zar]

Part 2.

Spoiler: D1 VC8

Day 1 votecount 8

Elmo TeH AzN (4):

Nuwen,

kanyeknowsbest

,

Yosarian2

,

Furcolow

,

kanyeknowsbest (3)

:

Elmo teh AzN

, Vi,

UberNinja

,

Pirate Chemist (3):

Zar

, charter,

Parama

,

Parama (1):

Pirate Chemist ,

shos (1):

Katsuki,

UberNinja (1):

shos,

Not voting (0):

<3

With 13 players, 7 votes are required to lynch.[/color]

3 competing wagons, 2 innocent and 1 of them of unconfirmed alignment.

- Again, Nuwen & Furcolow voting on the same wagon, If they're partners, I'd expect their buddy to be among the other votes....

- Oh Look! Vi's voting kanye *tsk tsk tsk*...
HOWEVER, Vi + Nuwen + Furcolow is a stretch (I'll give you that).

- We have the Hiraki slot voting Parama, a slot Nuwen has vehemently been defending, and Vi's been fencesitting about. Could be teams with either.

- There's shos voting UberNinja, but really, who's to blame for voting such a scummy looking slot? I wouldn't take that single vote as damning evidence. Still, could be teams with Nuwen or Vi for the moment.

- Obtuse Katsuki is voting shos. Now, the shos slot still doesn't tell us much since we don't know its alignment. I continue to believe these two are unlikely partners, especially since shos kept calling out for diddin for doing nothing.

- Charter is still voting unconfirmed Pirate Chemist/Hiraki.

Furcolow + {Nuwen/Vi/Charter} + {shos/diddin/hiraki}, incidentally, I've seen nothing to rule out Vi/Charter.

Spoiler: D1 VC17

Day 1 votecount 17

(4) UberNinja :

shos, Nuwen,

Yosarian2

,

Zar

,

(4)

Zar:

UberNinja

,

Furcolow

,

kanyeknowsbest, Elmo teh AzN,

(2) Hiraki :

Parama

, charter,

(1) Vi:

Katsuki,

(1) Yosarian2:

Vi,

(1) Not voting :

Hiraki

With 13 players, 7 votes are required to lynch.

So the Zar wagon at this point was composed of all town minus Furcolow, which definitely means that Furc's buddies were seeding the counter-option, in this case, UberNinja.

This points to at least one of shos/Nuwen could be mafia with Furcolow if we go by the assumption that the scum had managed to dominate the wagons of D1.

We have Vi parked on Yosarian, with a vote that isn't doing much at this point. We have Hiraki with no vote, and charter parked in Hiraki.

And then comes

Spoiler: D1 VC18

Day 1 votecount 18

(5) Zar:

UberNinja,

Furcolow

,

kanyeknowsbest

,

Elmo teh AzN

, Vi,

(4) UberNinja :

shos, Nuwen,

Yosarian2,

Zar

,

(2) Hiraki :

Parama

, charter,

(1) Vi:

Katsuki,

(1) Not voting :

Hiraki
With 13 players, 7 votes are required to lynch.

Vi puts her vote on me, raising my wagon 1 vote over UberNinja.

Here's how this makes sense from a Furcoscum buddies perspective:
- Vi had been very vocal about "OMG Ninja is so town" along D1. It wouldn't have made sense for her to go against the flow and throw a Ninja vote to raise his wagon over mine, especially since she had been dismembering my Furcolow suspicions through the day.

Here is how Nuwen's stance also could make sense from a Furcoscum buddies perspective:
- Re-enactment: "DUH! Two town counterwagons! Perfect! I vote one and you vote the other... then we switch and it's a done deal BWAHAHAHA"

Here's what is giving me some pause about Vi:
- Incidentally, the most vocal about the Ninja Wagon were shos and myself. Scum Vi could have her pick on each of us rather than focus on Nuwen. UNLESS Vi is shos buddy.


Anyway, then, we have the final D1 vote count:

Spoiler: D1 Final VC

Day 1 Final votecount

(7) UberNinja:

shos, Nuwen,

Yosarian2

,

Zar

, Hiraki,

Furcolow

,

Elmo teh AzN

,

(2) Hiraki :

Parama

, charter, Vi,

(2) Zar:

UberNinja, kanyeknowsbest,

(1) Vi:

Katsuki,

(0) Not voting :

With 13 players, 7 votes are required to lynch.[/float][/color]

Uberninja has been lynched.

At this point, the wagon is definite.
- Vi has moved out of Zar into Hiraki, yet does nothing to stop the "OMG Ninja's so town" wagon she was vocal about.
- Charter avoids the whole conversation.
- Nuwen and shos have been parked on the wagon the longest.
- Hiraki ascertains the wagon by putting the fifth vote in.
- Confirmed scum Furcolow switches from one town wagon to the other, thus avoiding making obvious if he has joined any of his scumbuddies in the wagon.
- Katsuki stays out of the wagons by keeping his vote on Vi.


Still pending to work on D2.

[Zar]

UNVOTE: Vi

while I figure out D2.

Here's a video of what she looks like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmd-DA18n7s

[Vi]

@Yos2 Re: Tricolor - But how does your role have anything to do with the Tricolour (pronounced "try-cull-'hour'")?

Let's try this different tack you're on. If the vision isn't referring to you, who is it referring to?
And, if the vision is not referring to you, then what of how Hiraki said that whoever killed Elmo dropped the medallion?

Re: Roleblockers - I get the impression that you're saying something, and I'm responding, and you're saying the same thing, and I'm responding the same way, and etc. Once again, I have no idea what it would take for you to see things my way.

Much the same way as how you didn't respond about what it would take to get you to vote Nuwen. And you said that I wouldn't be doing any shouting into the wind.

--

@Zar re: VCA - How exactly do you want me to "stop" the UberNinja wagon beyond what I already had done by calling him Town all game (to be entirely fair that hasn't worked for trying to get Nuwen lynched either), especially considering by the end I was starting to doubt myself?

Also, I can't help but look at your mulling about with voteivations and think that you're trying a bit hard to reach your own axioms, as well as taking things out of context. I believe I posted about this in MD a couple of days ago actually. And to answer your next question,

- Oh Look! Vi's voting kanye *tsk tsk tsk*...

Yes, you're trying to justify a conclusion you've already made.

[Zar]

No, I'm trying to make sense of this game.

There are some things on your favor (at least from my perspective) over Nuwen, including your high activity + the way you came along your suspicions of D2.

While it pisses me off how you insist on trashing my contributions, I'm not about to go over to the land of confirmation bias when we still don't know the reasons to the two deaths last night.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos2 Re: Tricolor - But how does your role have anything to do with the Tricolour (pronounced "try-cull-'hour'")?

(shrug) The tricolour is also the symbol of the French government today; that seems to symbolically fit being French police. In fact people took that as a confirmation of my role before I even realized what was going on.

Let's try this different tack you're on. If the vision isn't referring to you, who is it referring to?
And, if the vision is not referring to you, then what of how Hiraki said that whoever killed Elmo dropped the medallion?

That's a good question.

The scum probably do have safeclaims; considering that the mod basically told us that Madame Récamier was scum in the intro, and that was Furcolow's role, that seems fairly obvious. Probably the "real" martin is scum.

As for why that's related to Furcolow's vision; I have no idea. Like I said, it's possible more then one person targeted Elmo that night.

I mean, as far as this stuff goes, I don't think any of us actually know what any of this means. We were straight out told by the mod that flavor "might trick us".

Re: Roleblockers - I get the impression that you're saying something, and I'm responding, and you're saying the same thing, and I'm responding the same way, and etc. Once again, I have no idea what it would take for you to see things my way.

Well, you're not really answering my question.

You seemed to be trying to prove that there were no roleblockers specifically in the game at the start of the day, and that seems to be at odds with what you're now claiming. If that's not what you were doing, then why did you bring up that no one had responded when I and later Nuwen asked the scum to claim?

Much the same way as how you didn't respond about what it would take to get you to vote Nuwen. And you said that I wouldn't be doing any shouting into the wind.

I am doing my best to try and a read on both you and on Nuwen right now.

That being said, if this is, as you say, a 1v1 situation, my preference in 1v1 situations is to figure out who the OTHER scum has to be and lynch them first, and then how that goes is likely to make the choice easier. If I really can't get anyone else to join on the Manga wagon, though (I'm not sure why not, but ect), then I suppose I will have to choose between you, Nuwen, and Hiraki by the end of the day.

[Hiraki]

Hiraki, why did you unvote on D2?

I was able to relate with other ongoing games. Not going to say much more than that because that's just about as much as I can say.

I could've sworn you said UberNinja after this for some reason--this was a mistake. I got my games confused.

[shos]

oh look another 'honest' mistake from Hiraki!
man, sometime I should just go and ISO you and see all those places where you said something and then took it back. I think that's like number 5 or something.

Yos, a magna wagon won't start just like a nuwen wagon won't start. it's sort of a Vi vs Hiraki I think, and I'm more than happy if this is the case. either way, moar votes on Hiraki.

[Zar]

What makes you think a Nuwen wagon won't start?

[Zar]

Let's rephrase it:

shos: why is Nuwen not a better lynch than Hiraki?

[shos]

well it might, but in the light of the fact that nuwen was literally the only reason I voted furcolow and I'm inclined to think that was not a bus, I'd consider him nulltownnull or something in that region. I am much more confident against hiraki; he isn't even defending himself, and it doesn't even look like there's anyone here who disagrees with me.

[Nuwen]

Eh, I'm more willing to lynch through Hiraki today. Furthing did A LOT to press almost every wagon alternate to Hiraki's and even tried to pry votes off his wagon. I tend to believe that scum do the simplest thing, usually: in that situation there's really no reason to pluck out and defend a wagon on town alternate to your own. As the wagon on Furthing grew quickly, I would have expected him to advocate Hiraki over himself if Hiraki were town. Probably not willing to stake the game on this kind of assumption because a worst case 3-1-9 situation puts us close to endgame atm.

I really don't want to have to reread this game.

[Duplicate post deleted] - spring

[Zar]

Magua and Charter: why don't both of you start giving us some thoughts?

[springlullaby]

Day 3 votecount 3

(0) Zar:

(0) shos:

(0) Yosarian2:

(0) charter:

(2) Hiraki :

charter,shos,

(1) Magua:

Yosarian2,

(1) Nuwen :

Vi,

(1) Vi:

Nuwen,

(3) Not voting :

Hiraki, Magua, Zar,

With 8 players, 5 votes are required to lynch.

Notice: Due to the shortened deadline, the activity requirement is changed to 48 hours.

[/b]

Charter is 1 hour short from a prod and magua is 6 hours short.

[shos]

uh mod, can you use the time thingie on every votecount from now on? I mean the countdown tags? sorry and thanks ><