Open 402 -- Hard Boiled (Game Over!)

[Kassadin]

V/LA about a week due to exams sorry (semi vla)

[LlamaFluff]

My first experience with a VT claim as first claim was that they were scum, another reason I was suspicious of your reasoning.

It doesnt always apply. Thats what makes it interesting.

There are quite a few secondary things apart from "just claimed vanilla" that need to happen for me to step in and actually do anything about it. Thomith has a few of the secondary parts, is missing some, but its still enough to make me step in and do something here.

Really the oddest thing I have about Thomith is he entirely changed the way he has been interacting with me after the alt thing did, as he has seen me as town a whole lot as my alt and knows I can be increadably dangerous when I set my mind to do something. It could just be timing, but it feels little awkward. Its more of a tell than anything else he has done though to me.

[DCLXVI]

@Llama

are you saying you think thomith deliberately changed how he played towards you when your alt was revealed?

Wouldn't that be something scum would be much more likely to do than town?

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama

are you saying you think thomith deliberately changed how he played towards you when your alt was revealed?

Wouldn't that be something scum would be much more likely to do than town?

Yeah it is, which is why im a little conflicted on him but still side with him being town over the VT thing in the end. The way he reacted though almost feels like more of a scumtell than anything else he has done from where I am though since it just seemed to be an immediate turning point in how he viewed me.

I can see approaching things differently when someone slips with an alt, this just seemed like a quick shift when I actually have never been scum against him to compare meta with.

[TeChNoWC]

Ok, your post 390 in Mini 1150 you clearly make reference to the same idea. I couldn't find the same in your scumgame, so I am thinking you are town.

Can you point to me where Thomith seemed to change his behaviour when he realised the connection between you and your alt?

[Chimera]

Votecount 2.3

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Venmar (1) -- raspberrylicious
andrew94 (1) -- Venmar
Thomith (1) -- Jackal711
TeCHNoWC (1) -- LlamaFluff
raspberrylicious (2) -- Thomith, TeCHNoWC

Not Voting -- andrew94, BK201, Kassadin, DCLVXI, Nachomamma8

Deadline in (expired on 2012-06-23 22:10:00).

Kassadin and DCLXVI are/will be V/LA.

[DCLXVI]

@Llama

I have a question about your meta examples

Are you saying that as town you will strongly defend others townies and you never strongly defend people as scum? Cause that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Thomith]

hm. i didn't realise i changed my reactions towards you if i did, i would like to see a quote as well, as i genuinely don't remember doing it.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama

I have a question about your meta examples

Are you saying that as town you will strongly defend others townies and you never strongly defend people as scum? Cause that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I defend players as scum quite a bit too when the position calls for it. I was simply saying that if Techno has a problem with me defending players, he is going to end up always being a little wary of me because its unusual for me to let a town read take much flack, or "town read" when I am scum take that much flack.

@Thomith - You really got passive about the whole "someone who jumped Kass is scum" arguement shortly after I messed that up. It seems like you didnt want to rile me up at all or anything along those lines. Not saying it couldnt be coincidence, but the timing felt a little convienent.

[andrew94]

soz exam today, late atm, llama whats this alt thing thats going on?

will post more later

[Nachomamma8]

Thomith flipping scum will solidify my read on Thomith, alternatively if Thomith
flips town I think Llama is town.

Why do you think Llama would start bussing his partner only to save him from the lynch later? Also, why choose to go after Thomith first? Why not Llama?

Burke was pushing on you and I get the impression he had a case on you in his head, but couldn't be fucked telling everyone why. He was derping, but still sincere in his reads.

It seems odd that you're using Burke's push on Venmar as evidence against him. Why would you trust his reads?

Basically, I had no suspicion on me D1 and it would be stupid for scum-techno to go out on a limb like that.

WIFOM

Null Leaning Scum:
DCLXVI, Gut scum read
Jackal, Gut scum read

It seems odd that you have gut scum reads on both of these people. Their posting styles so far have been very, very different.

Ok, your post 390 in Mini 1150 you clearly make reference to the same idea. I couldn't find the same in your scumgame, so I am thinking you are town.

You think he is town because he referenced the VT thing in the town link he gave you, but not the scum one?
Also, does this mean you think Thomith is town by extension?

Not really sure who I want to vote right now, but, out of everything that's happened so far, I hate Techno using Bw's vote on Venmar as evidence against him the most, so.

Vote: Techno

This will probably change once I have a little more time.

[Jackal711]

Unvote, Vote: Techno[/b[

A better place for my vote atm.

[Jackal711]

EBWOP:

Unvote, Vote: Techno

fixed tags.

[Venmar]

I seriously apologize for not posting much lately, exams are coming up for me and i am cramming in studying right now. Scanning over though i do find Techno scummy, i am just not sure if i am ready to blindly jump on this bandwagon yet, as i personally think Andrew is scum.

[BK201]

Well we still have 2 weeks left, I am going to be too busy to accurately measure this game until Monday due to school.

[DCLXVI]

@llama ok so the fact that you are defending another player is a null tell then. I see what you were trying to get across now.
@everyone goodnews is that I have Internet the entire week. Bad news is that I don't have my laptop with me so don't expect me to quote ppl because it is way too time consuming.

Ok so reads

Cleared town: Bk, Venmar
Townish: Techno
Lurker/troll/little content: Raspberry, Kass, Jackal,
Null: Llama, Nacho
Scummy: Thomith, Andrew

--—-----------------
some other thoughts

Thomith's omgus "gut read" on me was cute.
I don't get the techno wagon at all
Nacho's case on techno is bad, as well as Andrew sheep jump Ono the wagon. Will get to that later tonight

[TeChNoWC]

@Nacho

Q1. I had considered it, but calling out someone as scummy simply for buddying is a small tell at best, and I wouldn't lynch someone over it. My suspicions on him were dependent on a Thomith flip.
Q2. It was only one piece of evidence in my case, and I stated that it wasn't my REASON for being suspicious of Venmar, it was simply where I started my reading on N1 (I always like to read over a flipped towny mislynch for wagon analysis + reads, since their reads, even if minimal and crappish, are at least sincere). All I meant was that I felt Burke failed to highlight the scumminess behind Venmar's post that he quoted (he simply quoted it and voted Venmar over it). In hindsight I could see why he was probably thinking that post was scummy. Still, Burke should have given reasons.
Q3. My only inclination for suspecting Llama as scum was his buddying of Thomith and trying to redirect the wagon before Thomith's flip. That last point still worries me somewhat, but I may be simply misreading Llama's motives (I can quote this post if you wish, will have to go digging). But his meta clearly shows him defending someone in the exact same scenario as this one for the exact same reasons, and Llama was town in that game, so yeah it pretty much clears up my suspicions on him. It makes Thomith look SOMEWHAT less scummy (Llama's buddying made me even more suspicious of Thomith), but he still looks scummy for the other reasons I and DCL highlighted in D1. Llama may simply be reading it a different way, I'm not sure. At this point though I am more wary of rasp and want to hear more from him.

Can anyone care to explain the wagon on me other than 'one of many non-town reads', 'read Venmar wrong' and 'didn't like his case on Venmar'? How does that make me scum? Sounds like great reasons for a mislynch, really. If that's the case, everyone D1 on the Burke wagon is scum and should be lynched, because we all got that wrong.

[TeChNoWC]

@DC can you explain your scumread on andrew? I don't remember you saying anything about him really.

[DCLXVI]

My suspicion of Andrew is mostly cause of him pushing the venmar wagon.

Also, I forgot to do this earlier VOTE: thomith

[TeChNoWC]

@DCL: So you aren't suspicious of me for doing the same? Explain.

[Venmar]

Either Thomith, Techno, or Andrew need to get lynched today. I don't see much support or evidence of people wanting to lynch Andrew, because he is just so scummy it hurts. Still reading a bit though, can't decide who is the better lynch.

Gut wise though, Techno has been giving off weird vibes for me and screams eager scum, but Thomith hasn't changed much in his playstyle to make me think he is town, and Andrew is just being himself. For now though, i will unvote from Andrew.

Unvote

[Chimera]

Prodding raspberryliscious

[raspberrylicious]

Should I claim? It seems to be getting down to the wire.

[BK201]

@Rasberrylicious

, you might as well claim now that you hinted you're not VT.

Do it.

[LlamaFluff]

No.

No he should NOT claim right now.

Given what he did though, you may want to consider not hiding anymore though, which of course is a valid move to start. Allows tracker to just try and hunt down their choice of player. If we mislynch I would say you should not hide (as its about 37% chance you die) but if we hit scum go for it. You need to make your plan clear either way though.

@Jackal - Why are you voting Techno?

unvote

I want to think about this and orginize my thoughts here.