Open 402 -- Hard Boiled (Game Over!)

[Nachomamma8]

Null: Llama, Nacho

Why? Have we not been providing enough content for you?

Q1. I had considered it, but calling out someone as scummy simply for buddying is a small tell at best, and I wouldn't lynch someone over it. My suspicions on him were dependent on a Thomith flip.

And the other part of the question?

It was only one piece of evidence in my case, and I stated that it wasn't my REASON for being suspicious of Venmar, it was simply where I started my reading on N1 (I always like to read over a flipped towny mislynch for wagon analysis + reads, since their reads, even if minimal and crappish, are at least sincere).

I never said anything differently. I was just wondering why it factored into your case on Venmar.

Can anyone care to explain the wagon on me other than 'one of many non-town reads', 'read Venmar wrong' and 'didn't like his case on Venmar'? How does that make me scum? Sounds like great reasons for a mislynch, really. If that's the case, everyone D1 on the Burke wagon is scum and should be lynched, because we all got that wrong.

I voted you because I wanted to see how you would react to a bit of pressure. I would like to hear Jackal's and Llama's, though.

Unvote, Vote: Thomith

Still my preferred lynch based on current reads.

What current reads?
Do you just not like getting asked for reasons?

and Venmar, the one think i hate more than vi's are nigh confirmed
townies refusing to change their reads. i know your kind, and i wont waste
my time changing your mind. I see you also conpletely ignored my questions
since your 'confirmed town'.

Wait, then what do you think his unvote was for?

[Nachomamma8]

off the top of my head, llama seems town, DCL seems town, and thomith is probably town.
I need to put more effort into reading rasp, jackal, and kass a bit more, but I'm guessing that one of them is probably scum.
i don't really understand how andrew still hasn't put a vote down today, but for now, my vote is perfectly fine on techno.

[TeChNoWC]

I answered your question fully. I had confidence in my reads, not burkes, isoing him was my starting point. A dead towny at least has sincere reads, if not correct.

[andrew94]

@nacho, he then voted me again soon after.
whether he votes me or not is of no consequence.
he just doesnt want to change his mind and admit he is wrong.
you also posted the same thing twice.

@llama, are you dense? you said psych which implied you know
that its the psych. im catching you out so you cant use that as a
softclaim.

scumlist:
llama, dcl

[LlamaFluff]

@llama, are you dense? you said psych which implied you know
that its the psych. im catching you out so you cant use that as a
softclaim.

I will use it for whatever I feel like using it for. Also if you realize I have used it as a catch all since its the only one I remember. Again, why are you rolefishing?

Why am I scum though... you keep saying it (I think its because im the only one who tells you how everyone views you as a player) but never give really any reasons that dont quickly deteriorate into "and you all are idiots for not seeing it"

[andrew94]

i thought you said i was probably town.
why are you attempting to swear the word rolefishing into my name.
i already said i didnt want you to use that as a softclaim

venmar rolefished and he apparently is town

[DCLXVI]

@nachonull isn't a matter of content. Low content ppl get called lurkers. Calling u and llama null pretty much means that you have both done things that r towny and have both done things that are scummy.

@andrew why am I scum? Omgus much?

[Thomith]

Andrew i dont see where venmar rolefished, can you show this?

[LlamaFluff]

Venmar rolefished and he apparently is town

*twitch*

And Arugula "misrepped" you so that means im town by your same logic?

Yes, I am trying to figure out exactly what you are doing with that comment since the only way you could be turning it into a scumtell that I could see was accusing me of knowing it as scum (impossible), but it would more likely get a reaction from myself or the real psych which would tell scum what needs to be done killing wise.

I still think you are probably town, but I still am trying to stop you from being stupid at the same time. If you want to view that as attacking you as SCUM instead of attacking you as "please stop that" fine. But really, give us something to work with apart from "you are stupid for not agreeing with me". That doesnt even really work for good players most of the time, its never going to work for you.

[andrew94]

@thomith
post 441 venmar rolefishs
venmar then gives a shit response.
post 451 nacho agrees
But why does that matter?
Venmar doesnt reply to any of my accusations now since he is 'confirmed town'.
Heck, he didnt even answer my last question on day1, suggesting that i should use microsoft word (thanks btw)

@dclxvi
how is it omgus?
you didnt vote me (your on thomith), you said you suspected me because
i was on venmar wagon
1) im angry that venmar wagon doesnt grow (of course i was.)
2) what the heck is your point 2 into post 558
3) some thing about me and llama. nothing to do with venmar. (ok....)
4) says my case is forced. (lol okay, how do you base that on? venmar becomming confirmed?)

you also said u didnt accuse me of sheeping and i shouldnt cry misrep cos you were voting me
-i pointed it out..
you said 'oh typo'
So i dont see how it is OMGUS at all. Even ask LLama or Tech,
i dont think im omgus at all.

[andrew94]

Venmar rolefished and he apparently is town

*twitch*

And Arugula "misrepped" you so that means im town by your same logic?

Yes, I am trying to figure out exactly what you are doing with that comment since the only way you could be turning it into a scumtell that I could see was accusing me of knowing it as scum (impossible), but it would more likely get a reaction from myself or the real psych which would tell scum what needs to be done killing wise.

I still think you are probably town, but I still am trying to stop you from being stupid at the same time. If you want to view that as attacking you as SCUM instead of attacking you as "please stop that" fine. But really, give us something to work with apart from "you are stupid for not agreeing with me". That doesnt even really work for good players most of the time, its never going to work for you.

Hey, llama
I have several points to make, pay attention to those with (1,2,3 in front of them, and answer the questions with ? after it)

1) I was under the impression that you said I Was misrepping Argula, and you didnt mention anything about Argula misrepping me

2) So basically your first point is void.
Now I'll be charitable and assume that you meant
'YOu misrepped argula so that means im town by your logic'
Well its entirely different.
We cant have everyone misrepping each other so that they get
the label of town. Besides, I was only pointing out that Venmar
rolefished but he was town, so rolefishing is not a scum action only.
I was also under the impression that you were smearing rolefishing
on my name.

Questions:
Where did i say 'you are stupid for not agreeing with me' ?
So you think Argula misrep'ed me?
Why is Tech scum?

[DCLXVI]

@andrew for my point 2 in 558, the "no" should be "nk" for night kill. Autocorrect hates mafia slang.

[andrew94]

I know you said it is minor. but why is it a scumtell?
If argula were still alive, i would most likely be pushing him right now.

[DCLXVI]

Scum are more likely to comment on a nk. It's a minor and certainly not the main reason I find you scummy.

[LlamaFluff]

Questions:
Where did i say 'you are stupid for not agreeing with me' ?
So you think Argula misrep'ed me?
Why is Tech scum?

First you know exactly the point I am trying to make. Unless you are calling what I think at this point half the game scum, defending youself with "venmar did it" doesnt work for why its not a tell, all it does is show me you are just applying it as you want with no real distinguishing factors of when it applies or not.

1) stuff like

hey argula, guess what, i would pick vig just to shoot your ass (if im that. (NOBODY REPLY TO THIS)). your dead scum to me now, too bad no1's listening

is you throwing a hissy fit that no one will listen to you

2) Im crossing wires again, but im not quite sure why this is important at all? Either way, you DID misrep Arugula... so either you are scum or misrep is not a scumtell or its only one if you want it to be. Im guessing the third am I right?

3) Im working on stuff.

Still borderline upset andrew reads townish since I would love to have any reason to get him lynched and out of this game. Just dont think scum usually will continually bring up how wrong with reads they are though.

[TeChNoWC]

@Llama: Andrew seems pretty town to me.

@Andrew: I don't like DCL's case on you all that much, but then again, what is your case on him? Skimming over your case on him looks as bad as his case on you. I wouldn't scream OMGUS until I understand your point better but yeah, clarify please. Is it just that he misrepped you?

Rasp please talk more.

[andrew94]

1) because i thought argula was scum.
Im not afraid to admit that i am now wrong, unlike Venmar, who has tunneling me.
2)you said argula misrep'ed me, and he was town. Then you said you(llama) are town by the same logic. But You were saying i was misrepping argula, not the other way around


@ Tech yea. Theres also process of elimination.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm getting very suspicious of the Kass wagon. It would be foolish to assume it is all scummy, but there is one in particular that was pushing it that stands out to me.

Early this is the stance that Techno takes with respect to the Kass wagon that Thomith kicked up, but he dropped this one when I snapped back hard on Thomith to an extent that he never even mentioned it again. There is never really any conclusion to it apart from this early BK vote that was in the same post an appeared to largely stem from the Kass wagon (as a whole).

Biggest problem I have is his transition to the BwB wagon out of seemingly nowhere once BK options go away

I'm up for that, though I would like to see some more posts from him when he comes back from V/LA before a hammer. A bit of pressure is what he needs at the moment though.

There we have it! Pressure.

Or is it wanting to get him lynched

This wagon has taken off very quickly, and its too early in the day for a quicklynch. I want to hear Burke's defence first, plus his scumreads before he gets obliterated out of the game at something like ten posts.

Sounds more like wanting to see him lynched which is subtatiated by

Need to hear back from Burke and at this stage and would like him to claim.

Ok. Time for a timeout to go back and look at why Techno is supporting this wagon.

Yeah I cant find it early. Maybe its that he is lurking?

Lowman being lurky does not make him scum. Anyone can lurk, even town.

Or not?

The entire presence of Techno on the wagon is unexplained, but he is one of he ones that shows up and pushes it to a lynch while still actively aruging for a Thomith lynch, and really never doing a great job of showing why the one on BwB is the better of the two options.

What I dislike more is that Techno immediately uses BwB being town as fodder to jump on Venmar. Using dead reads is not always the safest thing, but using only the LYNCHED dead player while ignoring the NKed one. As in the one scum wanted dead for a specific reason instead of "easy lynch"? Doesnt add up to ingore Arugula while trying to use BwB outside of BwB being a direct way to get a mislynch (Venmar).

Partway into D1... all I got for now but im returning my vote

Vote techno

DCL and Rasp still really bug me too though, Jackal as well but im a little less sure of how he works with Techno. Andrew works well though, just saying.

@andrew - Give cases, otherwise it does really just look like OMGUS or random movements. You claim to be "better than most" (who said that?) so try and prove it.

[TeChNoWC]

Lurkerish, nervous and makes poor decisions with poor reasoning. Maybe I am being hard on him and there is little content of his to go on, but he gives me a scummy vibe.

Will do a readthrough tonight, noticed some votes on Thomith on quick readthrough and need to work out what is going on there. Also need to Iso BK again.

@Llama: I was the first one to give reasoning on BwB being scummy when you asked me what I thought of him. Look ^

I was very suspicious of BK early in because his play was different to my town meta on him and I've never seen him play aggro or want PL's.

I didn't read over the Arugula kill during nightphase because HE WASN'T DEAD DURING NIGHTPHASE. Der.

I would never buddy Andrew as scum, IMO. And one minute you are saying andrew is town, now you've flopped back to him on a scumteam with me? Wtf?

[LlamaFluff]

So your entire case on BwB was "scummy vibe"? I know 'lurker' doesnt work from your PoV, and I dont see how nervous is a scum tell, or poor decision making. Again, is the arguement that your want of him lynched was a page 7 case of essentially gut?

Even if Arugula died at night, why did you not take the time to look into him if you are going to present dead player analysis?

Also I may be just looking for a reason to think andrew is scum so he is gone from this game, but I still think he is town despite working with you

[TeChNoWC]

I gave my thoughts on the Arugula kill in great detail. You obviously didn't ISO me properly. It's all WIFOM really.

That wasn't my entire case. That was my initial case. I was never deadset on him being scum but either way I didn't think he was helping as town so it was a good lynch. I never really regretted the lynch; he wasn't contributing and when he did he didn't explain himself.

Personally I hate it when people vote me without ISOing me properly and misrepping me as a result. I don't think you intentionally did this as scum, I just get the feeling you don't mind if I am lynched because there is a chance I am scum (sort of what I did with Burke). Hypocritical of me to a degree, but at least I am actively contributing as town. If you want to vote me that's fine, but don't sell me short like that.

[LlamaFluff]

I gave my thoughts on the Arugula kill in great detail. You obviously didn't ISO me properly. It's all WIFOM really.

If you note I said im not all the way done with an iso... even a skim shows you shrugged off what Arugula had to say far more than BwB. Where were you pushing this too just so I have an exact post you want me to guage differences off of.

That wasn't my entire case. That was my initial case. I was never deadset on him being scum but either way I didn't think he was helping as town so it was a good lynch. I never really regretted the lynch; he wasn't contributing and when he did he didn't explain himself.

So did you ever expand on the case that I was missing or was that what you ran with the entire time? What caused him to fall into a different boat than the rest of that group of players?

Also I never am 100% sure of anything outside of useful results or other exceedingly rare situations. Its all about what I think is most likely to be true and why. At this point, you are one of my strongest scum reads.

[raspberrylicious]

Rasp please talk more.

Sorry, I've just been having a rough week.

[TeChNoWC]

You are right, I never really gave any more of a clarification of my case on Burke and all the while I was hesitant that he may have just been anti-town.

Your logic on Thomith made me suspicious, but at the same time made me re-think Thomith-scum (I stated this close to Burke's lynch). Burke's VT claim seemed either a joke or faked; he was never around to clarify any points made against him so I was 'meh' about his lynch. I still thought there was a good chance he was scum mainly from gut, and other people contemplating him as scum. I thought at the time that if I was wrong about Burke and he flipped town, it would be good anyway because it would solidify my read on you and Thomith as a scumteam so I thought it was definitely worth lynching him based on this criteria.

My Arugula NK reads are at the start of the day during my argument with Venmar. Your actions + meta today made me doubt my suspicions of a scumteam between you and Thomith; the only thing that worries me is your idea that Hider should no longer hide. I have no idea whether this is scum or town motivated but either way I think it is a bad idea. I understand your reasoning that scum will have a lot of NK's to push through, but they will have a LOT more if Hider keeps confirming towns.

I think Rasp should claim at this stage after that whole nearly claim scenario. If he is town and gets NKd tonight for it, we could lose his investigations. And if he is scum making shit up, he will get CCd.

I can understand why you would think my case on Burke makes me look scummy, but you have overlooked nearly everyone in this regard when NO ONE from memory gave more reads on Burke than me, not even you. DCL said relatively nothing. Nacho I can't remember. Venmar said nothing, and has said nothing about his case on andrew. Kass simply said 'he is scum'. Are we all scum for this?

Pedit: Fair enough.

[LlamaFluff]

I understand your reasoning that scum will have a lot of NK's to push through, but they will have a LOT more if Hider keeps confirming towns.

If BK dies behind scum we essentially lose a lynch. Right now we have odd numbers, and at 11 alive have up to five lynches to get it right. If he dies, we advance to 8 alive, and only three lynches. BK dying behind scum nets us scum (as long as tracker doesnt get NKed, another worry) but costs us a lynch. I dont think trading a lynch for scum caught here is the right move, since it would mean we have three lynches to hit the last two scum if we mislynch today (three to hit one if we lynch right) which is why I think BK should only hide if we lynch scum.

I think Rasp should claim at this stage after that whole nearly claim scenario. If he is town and gets NKd tonight for it, we could lose his investigations. And if he is scum making shit up, he will get CCd.

Rasp-Psych with a guilty should claim. Otherwise its inconclusive results since there is a decent chance for a false positive. If they are a tracker, we know their result (BK->Venmar), if psych im assuming a negative result.