Mini 1346: Flavorless Mafia - GAME OVER

[farside22]

I replied saying, "can we be sure Psyche's mafia, it would be a stupid post from mafia and a town". I never said it's "null", I think it's more heavily weighted towards mafia, I think anything that seems suspicious or illogical, is always more weighted towards mafia.

Alright FC. Can you explain the difference to me between town being illogical and scum that is illogical? Why is Psyche's post more weighed toward scum in your view?

[FatCat]

It's just my rather simplistic view of the game. Townies use logic to get the bad guys, it's like solving a puzzle, voting patterns and lines of argument reveal all. Mafia use deceit, lies, and inventive thinking to throw them off the scent, but slip up when their arguments and votes become illogical and it's clear to the town that a townie would never vote, argue or think that way the baddie is posting.

[Psyche]

So I make these posts:

Whew. So. Guys. I'm going to do the salient thing and refuse to post again until something scummy happens.

That is all.

Cuz I can.

Watch me post again even though I said I wouldn't. 

Like a boss.

Psyche, not posting until something suspicious happens isn't good for the town or the game.  Why would you do this?

VOTE: PSYCHE

Deltabacon, I'm just looking at your location, are you a blue or a red?

You're just saying that so you won't seem like a Fat Cat.

And DLG appraises my posts thusly:

@ Junpei
Not before just something happens, something

scummy

.  Which means he doesn't want to slip up, and he doesn't want to be involved in making that something scummy happen.  Self preserving and not wanting to scumhunt.

What's your rationale for not voting scum?

@ Ellibereth
Agreed.  Vote, please?

@ Deltabacon
Why RVS?  Scum's been found.  Help lynch him.

DLG thinks from those three posts that I am actively avoiding any opportunity to seem scummy. Does anyone else not see how silly this is?

Or did I totally fail at making it painfully obvious ("I'm going to do the

salient*

thing" "Watch me post again even though I said I wouldn't. Like a boss.") that I was deliberately doing exactly what DLG was confidently accusing me of scum for avoiding?

*Note

: the definition of salient is "prominent, conspicuous" — Anyone aware of the meaning of that word would be aware from my first post that I was deliberately sticking myself out there.

That is the beginning of my suspicion of DLG — that he'd assert so confidently my scumhood for such spurious reasons. This leads me to think "he just said it to say it", not because he sincerely found me scummy.

But now we have more from DLG!

...

So, you want to do some scumhunting?  Good deal.

You're obviously not a derpwad; I've never thought so.  So, I have no interest in you pretending to be one and being flippant while doing so.  The intentions I ascribed to your post were logical.

I'll accept you did it intentionally to shove out of RVS.  It's a silly ploy, in my books, but to each his own.  And, if it worked, as it did, good on you.

I'm not sure what you mean about Junpei's post, but it did strike me as overly even-handed.  Like a display of just how serious he is to [mocking voice] get to the bottom of all this goshdarn business. [/mocking voice]

UNVOTE: Psyche
VOTE: Junpei

DLG backs off quick. (Like any player voting town should! Fudge yeah!)

But my issue is that DGB here explains his problems with my posts differently than he did earlier.

Before, it was "Self preserving and not wanting to scumhunt". Now it's "pretending to be [a derpwad!] and being flippant while doing so". 

He was conscious of all my silliness, but still took me seriously! Or he's backtracking like a boss! I'm

voting DGB

!

I thought he would be like, "Man, I did that to throw everyone in a loop, too, man!" and I'd be like "Wow, guy, that's so inception!" and no one would lol because it wouldn't be funny. But this

man's

guy's serious? No way!


QQ
But DGB's most recent posts seem legit, so I'll have to leave this wall as a "Psyche raises concerns" post and point a contemplative

FoS

. 

FatCat might go better! If not, I'll return to DGB, since that's going so well. I may be blinded by his buddying with me. But I don't currently think so.

[Psyche]

unvote

It's just my rather simplistic view of the game. Townies use logic to get the bad guys, it's like solving a puzzle, voting patterns and lines of argument reveal all. Mafia use deceit, lies, and inventive thinking to throw them off the scent, but slip up when their arguments and votes become illogical and it's clear to the town that a townie would never vote, argue or think that way the baddie is posting.

I remember those days! And it's so useful to know the Theory of Scumminess that guides your scumhunting. Puts your whole iso into perspective!

The game of mafia is one of psychology, not of reasoning. Reasoning's a lot easier to do, but sadly it isn't so.
Instead of looking for inconsistencies, we must look for intentions. Such is our curse...

Unless you are scum. Then your curse is knowledge that you will die by hanging.

[Junpei]

1) I read salient as silent

2) Your opening post on review is contradictory. The action you describe as salient is actually prominent in the way that is commonly thought of.

3) Very good point with DLG's thinking that you're hiding when you had already made several posts, seems like sheeping onto an easy vote

4) In post 21, I see no issue other than the tone sounds fake to me.

That combined with my aforementioned issue with DLG's read list...

vote DLG

What I do want though is for you to refer to DLG as DGB... I'm getting mixed up and it's unproductive and not efficient to change the names.

pedit: Psyche: Why did you unvote?

[FatCat]

unvote

It's just my rather simplistic view of the game. Townies use logic to get the bad guys, it's like solving a puzzle, voting patterns and lines of argument reveal all. Mafia use deceit, lies, and inventive thinking to throw them off the scent, but slip up when their arguments and votes become illogical and it's clear to the town that a townie would never vote, argue or think that way the baddie is posting.

I remember those days! And it's so useful to know the Theory of Scumminess that guides your scumhunting. Puts your whole iso into perspective!

The game of mafia is one of psychology, not of reasoning. Reasoning's a lot easier to do, but sadly it isn't so.
Instead of looking for inconsistencies, we must look for intentions. Such is our curse...

Unless you are scum. Then your curse is knowledge that you will die by hanging.

Funny, our style of mafia hunting is different, but we both come to the conclusion that the same man is guilty!

There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same

[Amrun]

VC 1.1

(2) DLG - FatCat, Junpei
(2) FatCat - Deltabacon, DLG


With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Not Voting: Ellibereth, farside22, Iknal, Psyche, Robbnva

Deadline: Wednesday, June 27, 3pm EST

Spoiler: Vote History

Deltabacon

- FatCat

Robbnva

Junpei

- DLG

FatCat

- Pysche > DLG

farside22

- FatCat > unvote

DLG

- Psyche > Junpei > FatCat

Ellibereth

Iknal

Psyche

- DLG > unvote

If you spot any mistakes, please let me know.

[Deltabacon]

Junpei's questioning of both Psyche and Fatcat looks like he's asking superficial questions at best, when everyone else is making reasonable probes and assertions to differing extents. I dont like it.

With regards to the Psyche / DLG fiasco, I think that it was essentially a page one clusterfudge, where DLG made the mistake of being very, very quick to change his mind, over the course of a single post, and trying to cover it up. You were extremely adament that we outright lynch Psyche higher up on the page,

demanding

votes from Junpei, Elliberetth and myself. Your post after Psyche's justification is also very, very apologetic in that you seem to cosy up to Psyche: saying

You're obviously not a derpwad; I've never thought so.

And

And, if it worked, as it did, good on you.

Both of which serve to appeal to Psyche's ego, which looks to me like a textbook definition of buddying, since you then dismiss it as saying he was 'just scumhunting'. How do you manage do go from looking at him as outright scum (and searching for a speedlynch, no less) to looking at him as Pro-Town?

With a third of the players yet to post anything of substance, a bandwagon like the one he tried to get rolling on FC would be ideal if it went through, since it would leave 3 Unknowns for scum to hide in tommorow. You claim Ellibereth to be nearly town for not jumping on the easy wagon, when thats basically what you tried to kick-start on Page One.

With this in mind:

UNVOTE: FatCat
VOTE: DLG

[DLG]

DLG: How is this slot I quoted null-town when Deltabacon is scum for avoiding game content by posting but not posting anything which could be read as any alignment? That's exactly what Ellibereth did here.

The answer seems self-evident, if you don't change what I said.

Ellibereth - null but on the Town side for not jumping the easy Psyche wagon
.....
Deltabacon - Scum for avoiding game content, but being willing to answer an out of game question directed at him

Ellibereth's post was in response to game content. He didn't jump on the Psyche wagon which would be pretty easy for scum to do in those circumstances (see FatCat). Note that Ellibereth's post and FatCat's vote both came before my Post #12. This is important in regards to the sheeping accusation against FatCat.

Deltabacon, however, answered a non-game related question, but specifically did not say anything game related.

Neither post was strongly indicative of alignment, but the subtle difference was good enough to separate null-Town and null-scum.

I must have missed the sheeping case on FatCat, could you explain it?

It's the sequence of events.

That's truly scummy of you. Why?

Psyche, not posting until something suspicious happens isn't good for the town or the game. Why would you do this?

Same accusation, more words from FatCat.

Couple that with

Well sir, you were won over quite easily.

This in response to me jumping off Psyche after Psyche came back swinging. It reads to me like FatCat was disappointed he no longer had me driving and rallying the Psyche wagon (Post #12) to shield his own involvement.

[DLG]

DLG, saying I was sheeping and bandwagoning because I voted for Psyche second makes absolutely zero sense. Also saying I was "buddying" with you because I shared your sound logic (at the time) that Psyche was acting suspicious is absolute BS.

Did I say you were "bandwagoning"? Or, even indicate that in some negative context? Please share. If it will help, I think the "bandwagoning is baaaaaad" school of thought is laughable. Only votes and wagons can really put pressure on a player. I love bandwagons.

I didn't say you were buddying me for sharing my logic. I said you were buddying me for attacking Psyche becasue of Psyche's attack on me.

You went from vote, to an interim position of "Are we sure?", to "nailed-on Mafia". The first we were coming from the same place, the second you were playing cautious, the third was precipitated by Psyche voting me. Since your "nailed-on Mafia" post came before, and was entirely the opposite of my reaction to Psyche, how do you get that you were sharing my logic?

This is bunk.

DGM- Nailed on mafia. Being illogical and telling lies. Saying I was sheeping and trying to buddy him, when I simply was the second person to vote for Psyche, after Psyche posted a VERY suspect post.

Gonna need a little help with seeing where it was that I lied.

Sure, it's fun to do some mudslinging, but put up or shut up (after you admit your misrepresentation).

Yeah, not a bit interested in changing my vote. This guy is scum.

I never said that Psyche's stupidity in his first post was null. I voted for him in my first post, then DLG said as a reply to Deltabacon "why vote for anyone else, scum's been found." ie. Psyche

I replied saying, "can we be sure Psyche's mafia, it would be a stupid post from mafia and a town". I never said it's "null", I think it's more heavily weighted towards mafia, I think anything that seems suspicious or illogical, is always more weighted towards mafia. I just asked can we be sure of Psyche's guilt, because at the time DLG seemed to be very strongly of the opinion we could. If you read the above quotes, you can see, it's all there in black and white.

Why would you ask if we can be sure, if you thought it was more likely a scum thing? Why not ask

me

if/how I could be so sure? That would make sense. The other is fluff with intention of showing off your cautiousness. Exact same problem I had with Junpei's first post.

[farside22]

It's just my rather simplistic view of the game. Townies use logic to get the bad guys, it's like solving a puzzle, voting patterns and lines of argument reveal all. Mafia use deceit, lies, and inventive thinking to throw them off the scent, but slip up when their arguments and votes become illogical and it's clear to the town that a townie would never vote, argue or think that way the baddie is posting.

So have never seen players gambit or kick start a game to see what comes from it before?

Junpei's questioning of both Psyche and Fatcat looks like he's asking superficial questions at best, when everyone else is making reasonable probes and assertions to differing extents. I dont like it.

Which questions came off as superficial and why?

Both of which serve to appeal to Psyche's ego, which looks to me like a textbook definition of buddying, since you then dismiss it as saying he was 'just scumhunting'. How do you manage do go from looking at him as outright scum (and searching for a speedlynch, no less) to looking at him as Pro-Town?

mmmmm I question the first part of this appeal to ego comment.

With a third of the players yet to post anything of substance, a bandwagon like the one he tried to get rolling on FC would be ideal if it went through, since it would leave 3 Unknowns for scum to hide in tommorow. You claim Ellibereth to be nearly town for not jumping on the easy wagon, when thats basically what you tried to kick-start on Page One.

How is not allowing a third of the player to post ideal for scum? If you think DLG is scum and 3 unknows for scum to hide in are you saying you believe those 3 to have scum in it along with DLG?

DLG: How is this slot I quoted null-town when Deltabacon is scum for avoiding game content by posting but not posting anything which could be read as any alignment? That's exactly what Ellibereth did here.

The answer seems self-evident, if you don't change what I said.

Ellibereth - null but on the Town side for not jumping the easy Psyche wagon
.....
Deltabacon - Scum for avoiding game content, but being willing to answer an out of game question directed at him

Ellibereth's post was in response to game content. He didn't jump on the Psyche wagon which would be pretty easy for scum to do in those circumstances (see FatCat). Note that Ellibereth's post and FatCat's vote both came before my Post #12. This is important in regards to the sheeping accusation against FatCat.

Deltabacon, however, answered a non-game related question, but specifically did not say anything game related.

I don't see how one post that is one word is null while a person who does RVS and answers a question is scummy. All that happened was Psyce's comment before this. You didn't ask anything from Delta and he didn't say anything about Psyc's comment, which maybe he thought was a joke. What else was there to really say as the #6 post in the game?

Couple that with

Well sir, you were won over quite easily.

This in response to me jumping off Psyche after Psyche came back swinging. It reads to me like FatCat was disappointed he no longer had me driving and rallying the Psyche wagon (Post #12) to shield his own involvement.

That's a stretch of imagination you have there.

[FatCat]

DLG: How is this slot I quoted null-town when Deltabacon is scum for avoiding game content by posting but not posting anything which could be read as any alignment? That's exactly what Ellibereth did here.

The answer seems self-evident, if you don't change what I said.

Ellibereth - null but on the Town side for not jumping the easy Psyche wagon
.....
Deltabacon - Scum for avoiding game content, but being willing to answer an out of game question directed at him

Ellibereth's post was in response to game content. He didn't jump on the Psyche wagon which would be pretty easy for scum to do in those circumstances (see FatCat). Note that Ellibereth's post and FatCat's vote both came before my Post #12. This is important in regards to the sheeping accusation against FatCat.

Deltabacon, however, answered a non-game related question, but specifically did not say anything game related.

Neither post was strongly indicative of alignment, but the subtle difference was good enough to separate null-Town and null-scum.

I must have missed the sheeping case on FatCat, could you explain it?

It's the sequence of events.

That's truly scummy of you. Why?

Psyche, not posting until something suspicious happens isn't good for the town or the game. Why would you do this?

Same accusation, more words from FatCat.

Couple that with

Well sir, you were won over quite easily.

This in response to me jumping off Psyche after Psyche came back swinging. It reads to me like FatCat was disappointed he no longer had me driving and rallying the Psyche wagon (Post #12) to shield his own involvement.

Dude are you barking mad? You seem to think "jumping on the Psyche wagon" is a damning black mark against someones name, when the truth is Psyche's post was extremely suspicious and he deserved to be voted against.

As for the part where you say I was disappointed I no longer had you driving and rallying the Psyche Wagon, I think you really need to have a sit down with your ego. Your reasoning seems to be that I'm a mafia because I was looking to sycophantically sheep with you in order to get Psyche wagoned, as you are a great and powerful leader of men. Let's see can you drive and rally enough support to prevent your own lynching, buddy.

[DLG]

DLG backs off quick. (Like any player voting town should! Fudge yeah!)

But my issue is that DGB here explains his problems with my posts differently than he did earlier.

Before, it was "Self preserving and not wanting to scumhunt". Now it's "pretending to be [a derpwad!] and being flippant while doing so".

He was conscious of all my silliness, but still took me seriously! Or he's backtracking like a boss! I'm voting DGB!

I thought he would be like, "Man, I did that to throw everyone in a loop, too, man!" and I'd be like "Wow, guy, that's so inception!" and no one would lol because it wouldn't be funny. But this man's guy's serious? No way!

What backtrack? You changed your input, I changed my approach to you.

As long as you were being intentionally silly, you were potentially hiding and not scumhunting. I glossed over you using salient in the precise way you did. In retrospect it should have clued me in to your intentions. Still, I don't think I'd change anything because the pressure resulted in a decent read, just slightly later than it could have been.

I didn't attack you to throw everyone into a loop. I attacked you to see where you were coming from. I found your response decently Townie, and went on to better hunting grounds.

Junpei's questioning of both Psyche and Fatcat looks like he's asking superficial questions at best, when everyone else is making reasonable probes and assertions to differing extents. I dont like it.

Do you find it scummy?

With regards to the Psyche / DLG fiasco, I think that it was essentially a page one clusterfudge, where DLG made the mistake of being very, very quick to change his mind, over the course of a single post, and trying to cover it up. You were extremely adament that we outright lynch Psyche higher up on the page,

demanding

votes from Junpei, Elliberetth and myself.

Well, I certainly asked for more votes, in a way that pressured Psyche to respond. Not sure this is "

demanding

". Did you just miss how I was also sounding you three out at the same time?

Do you find it a mistake to change your mind when the evidence indicates something differrent than your initial read? Can you expand on this "cover-up" idea?

How do you manage do go from looking at him as outright scum (and searching for a speedlynch, no less) to looking at him as Pro-Town?

Question asked and answered. Read through, and don't fluff. Don't misrep, either. Where was I seeking a "speedlynch"?

With a third of the players yet to post anything of substance, a bandwagon like the one he tried to get rolling on FC would be ideal if it went through, since it would leave 3 Unknowns for scum to hide in tommorow. You claim Ellibereth to be nearly town for not jumping on the easy wagon, when thats basically what you tried to kick-start on Page One.

Null-leaning Town is not the same as nearly Town.

Which is scummier? Trying to get a bandwagon going, or actually joining in the cool and going wagon? Have circumstances changed with respect to how many players have contributed?

[DLG]

I don't see how one post that is one word is null while a person who does RVS and answers a question is scummy. All that happened was Psyce's comment before this. You didn't ask anything from Delta and he didn't say anything about Psyc's comment, which maybe he thought was a joke. What else was there to really say as the #6 post in the game?

Not the difference between null and scummy. Different shades of grey. Null to Town versus Null to scummy.

The post Deltabacon replied to contained FatCat's vote on Psyche. This was the second vote, and was clearly not RVS.

My conclusion is that Deltabacon would have seen this and chose to only reply to the out of game thing.

My conclusion regarding Ellibereth is that he replied to an in game thing.

It's not a huge disparity, but enough for me to differentiate between them.

That's a stretch of imagination you have there.

Oh, I fully admit it's reaching and stretching on my part. The intended consequence was to pressure FatCat some more. The unintended consequence of you picking up on it is good, too, though.

Dude are you barking mad? You seem to think "jumping on the Psyche wagon" is a damning black mark against someones name, when the truth is Psyche's post was extremely suspicious and he deserved to be voted against.

As for the part where you say I was disappointed I no longer had you driving and rallying the Psyche Wagon,

I think you really need to have a sit down with your ego.

Your reasoning seems to be that I'm a mafia because I was looking to sycophantically sheep with you in order to get Psyche wagoned,

as you are a great and powerful leader of men.

Let's see can you drive and rally enough support to prevent your own lynching, buddy.

Dude, could you stop throwing insults to try to make your points look better?

I never said "jumping on the Psyche wagon is a damning black mark". Look at Post #12. Who specifically is not called out in that post? I'll hazard a guess that it's you, the one who

had

voted Psyche.

Your shift of tone from cautiousness to outright scum regarding Psyche looked suspicious, to me. So did Junpei's first post, which is where I voted, next. It wasn't until after all that when I voted you. Your history is wrong and misleading.

The bolded and struck out portion is just more insults and attempts to strengthen your position. Read without those portions, you are correct.

And, if I'm lynched, I'll have a chance to post last reads before I'm hammered. I will find scum on my wagon and help Town to fulfill my wincon.

Now, you seem bothered that I'd dare to suspect you. Why is that?

[FatCat]

The reason I'm bothered you suspect me, is your arguments against me are poor and ill-thought out.

There is much more evidence to suggest you are infact a mafia, and I think that is plain for all the town to see.

[DLG]

Cool, we disagree.

I'm good with letting this back and forth go and letting everyone else make their own reads off of it.

FatCat says, "Lynch DLG!"

DLG says, "Lynch FatCat!"

Does that about sum it up?

[FatCat]

Yeah I'm happy to let it go, I'm sick of your yapping and you look 10 times more guilty.

[Ellibereth]

busy graduating
and filling out college forms
seeyall sometime this weekend

[Junpei]

I didn't see Deltawave jumping on the Psyche wagon, which is the whole reason Elli is town.

X makes Elli town
Delta does X
Y makes Delta scum
Eli does Y

You all see the problem, no?

[farside22]

@FC: Will you be answering question I ask you or will you ignore me till I vote you to answer my question?



Impressions:

DLG: moments I think town and moments I go whaaaaatttt. I don't like the few moments where I felt he followed me (FC vote) or the congrates post (seeing his comment as a scretch). Not liking Deltabacon more or his vote or his comment leads me off the wagon.
FC: Issues with answering questions. In fighting like crazy. Eager (this is a plus by the way). I'm seeing newb but still hate, hate, hate when people don't answer questions.
Junpei: The sane one in the group. Mostly feeling town here.
Psyc: Did gambit, read like a crazy man to me trying to get discussion doing. Usually gambits read of town, but too much witnessing of gambits from others lately that were scum and I put him into null till he says more.
Elli: A bit fat load of nothing.
Deltabacon: Out of all the chatting around here gives me the biggest scum read thus far.

This:

Junpei's questioning of both Psyche and Fatcat looks like he's asking superficial questions at best

makes no sense.
and this:

With a third of the players yet to post anything of substance, a bandwagon like the one he tried to get rolling on FC would be ideal if it went through, since it would leave 3 Unknowns for scum to hide in tommorow. You claim Ellibereth to be nearly town for not jumping on the easy wagon, when thats basically what you tried to kick-start on Page One.

is fearmongering and illogical attack if I ever read one.

First no one is going to vote someone just because a person ask
Second no one is going to lynch a person on page fucking 2 without a good reason and not just because someone asked

vote: Deltabacon

Iknal and Robbnva: Who????

Mod can you please prod Iknal and Robbnva

Not officially, but I'll give them a poke. ~Amrun

[Robbnva]

got prodded

no chance to catch up right now but I will not be denied my rvs vote.

Vote farside

cause your name reminds me of Pharcyde and they were absolutely terrible.

Unvote

ok gotta run now.

[FatCat]

@farside- I didn't bother answering DGBs laboured questions because they either covering old crowd or waffle.

If you have any questions for me yourself, please present them, and I'll see can I help you with them.

[Robbnva]

request replacement

Sorry. I can't Dedicate the time to this game.

[farside22]

@FC: This was the last question I asked you:

So have never seen players gambit or kick start a game to see what comes from it before?

The last questions I asked you were about Psyche, but you got snarky and since then Junpei answered questions from me you could use.

[DLG]

I didn't see Deltawave jumping on the Psyche wagon, which is the whole reason Elli is town.

You are correct, on one level. Both did not jump on the Psyche wagon.

Deltabacon did not while purposefully avoiding game content.

Ellibereth did not while repsonding to game content.

There is a difference, to me.

Pah, the unmitigated truth, thinking back on it, is that I got a little chuckle out of Ellibereth's post.

Before you get all up in arms about how that has nothing to do with alignment, is an illogical reason to have a read, etc. I know all that. I posted some impressions based on stuff that happened within 7 hours of the thread being open. I gave some reasons that came to me as I was writing that post.

I'll concede your point, but, in response. So what? I had no ulterior motive for posting those reads. Just wanted to give my first blush impressions.