Mini 1346: Flavorless Mafia - GAME OVER

[Psyche]

It'd make your random request that everyone mass claim less unnerving.

[Amrun]

VC 1.4

(3) DLG - FatCat, Junpei, Deltabacon
(2) Deltabacon - farside22, Iknal
(1) FatCat - DLG
(1) Junpei - Slaxx


With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Not Voting: Ellibereth, Psyche

Deadline: Wednesday, June 27, 3pm EST

Spoiler: Vote History

Deltabacon

- FatCat > DLG

Slaxx

Robbnva

- farside22 > unvote | Junpei

Junpei

- DLG

FatCat

- Pysche > DLG

farside22

- FatCat > unvote > Deltabacon

DLG

- Psyche > Junpei > FatCat

Ellibereth

Iknal

- Deltabacon

Psyche

- DLG > unvote > DLG > unvote

If you spot any mistakes, please let me know.

[Ellibereth]

Vote: Delta

BAM

[Deltabacon]

Allow me to clear up my impressions from DLG's post which I disagreed with.

@ Junpei
Not before just something happens, something

scummy

. Which means he doesn't want to slip up, and he doesn't want to be involved in making that something scummy happen. Self preserving and not wanting to scumhunt.

What's your rationale for not voting scum?

Why is it that you want scum to live?

@ Ellibereth
Agreed. Vote, please?

I agree with it being laughable. Vote anyway.

@ Deltabacon
Why RVS? Scum's been found. Help lynch him.

Why are you sticking to somethng which is found to be a norm in mafia games, rather than jumping on an obvious jokevote train?

I disliked this post because at this stage of the game, DLG was forcing his arguments down people's throats, more specifically people who had been active, which would have been necessary for what could have been a speed lynch. Surely a lynch without input from half a town, giving the Mafia the pick of the kills and forcing us to make our first reads on half of the players D2 would have been favorable for Mafia. When he sees that this isnt going to work, he changes his argument rather quickly, and says he was persuaded by a reasonable argument, when in fact, I believe he was simply retreating from the consequences of a failed page one push with all due haste in order to stop himself from being caught. A deer in the headlights situation, if you will.

Furthermore, his request for FC to read through his previous games stinks, in that metagaming is never an actual tell. Why he invoking a frowned-upon method of proving his township to FC?

In addition to this, he completely ignores my argument towards him, preferring instead to push his case on FatCat for 1 and a half posts. (That wagon that he 'totally digs', Post #32), with the remainder of it devoted to self-defense.

More in a few hours, I have to scoot.
Coming up: Replies to farside's questions and probably some more incriminating argumentation against DLG, there is tonnes of it to go around.

[farside22]

Vote: Delta

BAM

So why the vote on Delta, are you even going to give your thoughts on anything in the game?

[DLG]

More on the content generated later.

This meta argument thing, though, is off track.

I didn't ask FatCat to look at my previous games as a self-meta defense. I said to look at them in response to him saying I was right-brained and emotional over logical. He made a judgement about my mind/personality based on posts from me in this game. I said, look at some of my other games to see a different aspect of my mind/personality.

Mind/personality is not alignment indicative.

@ Junpei
The exchange went as follows:

I think maybe you're more of a right brained person, you seem to go on emotions and your logic is deeply, deeply flawed.

If you're interested, read some of my other games. It might change your opinion regarding my capacity for logic.

How do you get that I was making a self-meta defense?
You are working hard to buttress FatCat. Why? It would make sense if you had an avowed strong Town read on him and he was under undue pressure. You don't, and he's not. Now, why?

[DLG]

In addition to this, he completely ignores my argument towards him

Well, that's not true. Post 62

Very dissatisfied with Ellibereth's entrance. It seems specifically targetted to draw attention to himself. The question, is why? Need to read through more thoroughly and get a sense if there was growing momentum against any particular player.

Deltabacon is doing a lot of regurgitating, but I can't tell if that is a function of simply posting less frequently - therefore, many of the points have already been made. It's a fine line between parroting to fit in, and having similar thoughts that someone else has already posted.

@ Deltabacon
Same question as I posed to FatCat. Outside of me, who looks scummy?

@ Ellibereth
I'll join the chorus. More detailed thought are required.

It'd make your random request that everyone mass claim less unnerving.

This read as genuine, to me.

But, did you really think Ellibereth's request was real?

[Junpei]

I'm not working hard to support FatCat, I just call things how I see them. I even just checked, and I have investigated FatCat too. FatCat insulted you, and you responded with saying "if you're interested, read some of my other games". I've seen a million of those types of insults (attacking someones' thinking/logic ability) in my time here, and I can't remember people responding offering out games for meta.

130 is acting like you felt FatCat was just making an honest mistaken interpretation, but I read your initial response and the tone reads that you're making a snide remark in response to an insult.

Also I'm saying you may have been trying to get us to look at previous games because you were consciously acting like your town meta.

Ellibereth: Please contribute or replace out. What is your read on DLG and why?

[DLG]

DLG: Inconsistent reads are indicative of a faulty line of thought. Somewhere, you consciously wrote something which was contradictory and did not correct it. Mafia would do this because their reasons aren't through investigation of the situation (which would cause context making the error clear) but rather trying to find someone to suspect (thus attacking people for inconsistent reasons).

Explain why you wanted the back and forth to end yet attacked FatCat for agreeing with you.

Absolute insistence on making sure you are never inconsistent is indicative of reading yourself and grooming your posts to make sure no one can find fault with them. Mafia would do this because they want to avoid suspicion.

We can debate theory post-game, if you want.

You and FatCat, both with the same line of bollocks regarding the disengage thing.

You both ignore the fact that it was him who said this, first.

There is much more evidence to suggest you are infact a mafia, and I think that is plain for all the town to see.

Next, I say

I'm good with letting this back and forth go and letting everyone else make their own reads off of it.

Point is, I was content at that point. The purpose of the debate was to help others to make reads.

From here, FatCat gives his smart-ass reply.

Yeah I'm happy to let it go, I'm sick of your yapping and you look 10 times more guilty.

Later, he tried to defend the latter part as intentionally goading me. If he wanted to disengage, why goad?

I think that's bollocks, though. I think he just wanted the last word and couldn't resist the impulse to be insulting.

Now, you both then want to portray the next event as me re-engaging, after offering to disengage. You both conveniently ignore this, though.

@farside- I didn't bother answering DGBs laboured questions because they either covering old crowd or waffle.

This indicates he is aware he has left questions unanswered, and he wants to paint them as demeaningly as possible. The point is, why bother to respond if you can just make everyone else ignore them through minimizing them?

So, I read both of those, then re-engaged him on the grounds that he's just wanting to insult, not lynch. Clear purpose is to engender dislike for me, but not be totally responsible for the mislynch.

That is scum mind-set.

I find it difficult to believe you missed this, given your "look at everyone as equally suspicious" stance. You are working in tandem with FatCat.

[Junpei]

Absolute insistence on making sure you are never inconsistent is indicative of reading yourself and grooming your posts to make sure no one can find fault with them. Mafia would do this because they want to avoid suspicion.

We can debate theory post-game, if you want.

Uh no, you don't get to dismiss a tell as game theory. Mafia can't simply avoid suspicion that way because they are inconsistent for the reason I stated.

Yes, you were the first to want to disengage, I know that. Yes, FatCat insulted you (I find it hard to believe that you noticed this insult and not the other insult about logic) and yes he said he didn't answer questions (but he said why: they were repetitive/waffling(?)).

I just don't understand what you hoped to achieve at 77 that you couldn't achieve at 65.

I'll agree with you on one thing though:

This does not indicate a desire to lynch. It indicates a desire to make sure you "look" better and make sure I shut up.

If all of the sudden the argument actually did have merit, then dropping it early is showing lack of will to lynch. That goes for both of you. FatCats' obsession with you is bad as well, and is cause for suspicion.

[Junpei]

selfdoubt. I'll get to this thread 'soon'.

What specifically caused the self doubt?

I don't see it explicitly stated anywhere.

Psyche, don't ignore me, it's true you seem more town than others, but that doesn't give you any right to ignore questions. This question is important as it explains the seriousness of your vote and the weight of your unvote. It seems like you're waffling on whether or not to lynch DLG - as if you can't decide if you want to present something which could pull the breaks or let it run.

[Ellibereth]

Vote: Delta

BAM

So why the vote on Delta, are you even going to give your thoughts on anything in the game?

farrrrrrrry
you should know how I operate
blehblah


p.s.
I'm SERIOUS about massclaim request.

unvote

[Ellibereth]

[quote]Ellibereth: Please contribute or replace out. What is your read on DLG and why?[/quote.]
You're Hilarious. Tentatively town and no.

[Junpei]

..Oh.. you think that doing nothing but troll is a play style...
..

No one is claiming but DLG once we get him back to L-1. Why'd you unvote Deltawave, Ellibereth?

[Ellibereth]

Nah, I usually don't troll.
I also don't feel obliged to answer to shit unless I feel like it.

and massclaim is the shit
it can split us into two pools and give us a few practically confirmed people + PR coordination

[Ellibereth]

okay
yeah
my reads are mostly shit right now so I'll probably give it another day to brew

[Ellibereth]

But this does make me nostalgic.

TOWN
Slaxx
DLG
Psyche
Elli

PEOPLE LEFT
Delta
Junpei
far
Cat
ik

[farside22]

Vote: Delta

BAM

So why the vote on Delta, are you even going to give your thoughts on anything in the game?

farrrrrrrry
you should know how I operate
blehblah


p.s.
I'm SERIOUS about massclaim request.

unvote

Usually when you throw a vote you have a reason for them. Not just to troll a game.

[Ellibereth]

I did have a reason but its pointless now.

[Ellibereth]

anyway
with this being 7-2 and thus a fair abundance of town power massclaim makes tons of sense

[Psyche]

Could you...elaborate?

Going over thread now. Junpei should ask more interesting questions if he wants them answered promptly. (kidding)

[Psyche]

The more DGB posts, the less certain I am that he is scum. So I'm going to drop my association with that wagon barring someone presents a good case that explains why he's still scummy.

unvote

It's just my rather simplistic view of the game.  Townies use logic to get the bad guys, it's like solving a puzzle, voting patterns and lines of argument reveal all.  Mafia use deceit, lies, and inventive thinking to throw them off the scent, but slip up when their arguments and votes become illogical and it's clear to the town that a townie would never vote, argue or think that way the baddie is posting.

I remember those days! And it's so useful to know the Theory of Scumminess that guides your scumhunting. Puts your whole iso into perspective!

The game of mafia is one of psychology, not of reasoning. Reasoning's a lot easier to do, but sadly it isn't so.
Instead of looking for inconsistencies, we must look for intentions. Such is our curse...

Unless you are scum. Then your curse is knowledge that you will die by hanging.

Funny, our style of mafia hunting is different, but we both come to the conclusion that the same man is guilty!

There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same  

<3 Man crush initiated.

That FatCat has a distinctive scumhunting schema that leads him to tune in on irrationality instead of scumminess actually does a lot to help me understand his play. That alleviates at least some of my concerns about his play.

The bulk of concerns about his play seem to stem from this (poor) theory and his personality. I'm not interested in a lynch driven by that. If I'm wrong, someone should make that clearer.

Junpei's questioning of both Psyche and Fatcat looks like he's asking superficial questions at best, when everyone else is making reasonable probes and assertions to differing extents. I dont like it. 

With regards to the Psyche / DLG fiasco, I think that it was essentially a page one clusterfudge, where DLG made the mistake of being very, very quick to change his mind, over the course of a single post, and trying to cover it up. You were extremely adament that we outright lynch Psyche higher up on the page,

demanding

votes from Junpei, Elliberetth and myself. Your post after Psyche's justification is also very, very apologetic in that you seem to cosy up to Psyche: saying

You're obviously not a derpwad; I've never thought so.

And

And, if it worked, as it did, good on you.

Both of which serve to appeal to Psyche's ego, which looks to me like a textbook definition of buddying, since you then dismiss it as saying he was 'just scumhunting'. How do you manage do go from looking at him as outright scum (and searching for a speedlynch, no less) to looking at him as Pro-Town?

With a third of the players yet to post anything of substance, a bandwagon like the one he tried to get rolling on FC would be ideal if it went through, since it would leave 3 Unknowns for scum to hide in tommorow. You claim Ellibereth to be nearly town for not jumping on the easy wagon, when thats basically what you tried to kick-start on Page One. 

With this in mind:

UNVOTE: FatCat
VOTE: DLG

Pretty solid. You say it like you mean it.

BUT WAIT. (this is something farside highlighted but in a different way)

Junpei's questioning of both Psyche and Fatcat looks like he's asking superficial questions at best

Wtf is this? This actually reads as someone totally searching for something to type as filler.

And the last section also seems like a disingenuous attempt to show concern for Unlikely Worst Case D1 Scenario X.

In general, though, Delta's play seems like thoughtful analysis. That doesn't matter too much, since scum are perfectly capable of thinking. Delta's posts read more like the use of thought to build a case that fits a predefined conclusion. Hm...

selfdoubt. I'll get to this thread 'soon'.

What specifically caused the self doubt?

I don't see it explicitly stated anywhere.

You didn't? It seems that I explicitly stated it in the post right before my unvote. This series of questions that you feel a need to produce, it seems, is a result of oversight on your part.

Not waffles.

:/
Maybe I'm overthinking or just thinking poorly, but I can't get any strong scumreads just yet. I'd announce my townreads, but they seem to help scum choose their NKs, and I don't see the use in such a list yet.

vote Delta

Until something catches, and because this wagon works.

I'll probably end up producing that list I'm uneasy about when I get more scumreads...

[Junpei]

Delta's posts read more like the use of thought to build a case that fits a predefined conclusion.

Huh? Explain how you see this because I don't see it.

[Ellibereth]

NOTICES:

Iki's been on several times since last night.

and I'm amused Delta's turned off his activity record thingy (which means he's also been on...)
since it was still there last time I posted
and was there last night

[Ellibereth]

everytime DLG is referred to as DGB I do a frogface