NY Mafia 155 - New Age Mafia II - Game Over!

[Glork]

I haven't really been able to get into this game. Also, an unrelated, outside conversation reminded me of CrashTextDummie's massclaim suggestion for Almost Normal, and my desire to do the same in Closed Normal. I guess I didn't suggest it earlier because it didn't occur to me earlier?

[Tierce]

I want your opinions and observations on this game, right now. Drop the act, tell us what you really think.

What makes you think that Space Monkey, a game build entirely around being a bit of a mindfuck for the players, is a good place to lift behaviours from for a large normal game?

I'm giving those observations as I have them and see fit to share them.

It was one behavior, and it was hardly specific for that game--it's disingenuous of you to try to associate those two things, since they are independent. Whatever act you say I'm doing has been dropped already when I explained what and why I was behaving like that.

Hai Staeg. Whenever you feel like playing with us, go right ahead.

iaun--I think you replaced out from that game, but do you remember what was your slot's alignment in kiwieagle's Cookie Mafia? It was eaten by tigers, but I remember some things from there and I'm matching pieces together.

I'm good with massclaim.

---

Also, this redff wagon is bad and people should feel bad.

redFF: 1 (Flameaxe)

wow what a wagon.

unvote, vote redff

dumb? or scummy?

redff is dumb for sure. But mostly I'm just interested in exploring why JD seemed to overreact to one vote on red.

Why add a vote yourself instead of voting JDodge, then, if you're 'exploring' JDodge's behavior?

I don't see any evidence of Rhinox looking for motivations--he's jumping on actions and declaring them scummy without showing how, if ever, said actions further the scum cause. He's more interested in criticism than in finding scum.

So would you say your post shows evidence of looking for my motivation, or shows how, if ever, my actions further the scum cause? >.>

I don't know what you mean about more interested in criticism than finding scum. I think umoms is scummy and I've explained why. What part do you have a problem with? Can you show me examples of what you're saying I'm doing here?

I've been trying to get actually responses/discussions about things because thats how I play. When people react with "what the fuck is this shit" or "you're just making things up as you go" - that stuff is just useless rhetoric meant to look like you're doing something when you're not doing jack shit. "what the fuck is this shit" says nothing about what you think the problem is or why. "you're just making things up as you go" isn't even trying. Unfortunately this is the type of play thats the acceptable and "cool" way to play in the current meta. Its just not how I play.

See below.

For serious though, I'm not liking umoms complaining about a slow start while not doing anything to fix it, while also complaining about something that actually *could* speed up the start of the game (aka the agar wagon)

unvote, vote umoms

Why is this more likely to come from scum than town?

Yeah... I was gonna say, if it was a reaction test, umoms failed.

What exactly am I supposed to be reacting to? I couldn't really give less of a shit about a page 3 lolynch wagon.

A good start might be to actually address the reasons people think you're scummy.

Why does his lack of reaction to a quickwagon make him scum?

nice omgus

It was not OMGUS. He analyzed the wagon of people voting him and went for the person he believed was opportunistic scum. Would you call OMGUS if umoms voted anyone else in that wagon?

What the fuck is this shit?

I don't know, what the fuck is it? You didn't actually say anything about it at all.

And neither do you.

What do you think about the point I brought up about umoms?

Your one point was that he acted lazy at the beginning of the game. Again, why do you think this is scummy?

What do you think about the point I brought up about umoms?

you brought up a point about umoms? i was under the impression that he called out your bullshit and you chalked it up to wifom

nah man he whined and omgus'd me without actually addressing anything. Idk where you're coming up with this wifom you think happened but I didn't chalk anything up to wifom ever.

More importantly, why are you answering for agar?

Or if you really feel the need to answer you can at least say why you think my point was bullshit. You asked me to clarify my comment which I did. Were you not interested in the answer?

Why are you having an issue with JDodge not clarifying stuff when you don't clarify stuff yourself?

Also, this redff wagon is bad and people should feel bad.

redFF: 1 (Flameaxe)

wow what a wagon.

unvote, vote redff

This is an example of the pointless snippiness and lack of explanation. You are railing against JDodge's description (why, even if it is inaccurate? Why is this wrong descriptor worthy of 'exploration'?) and voting redFF... why?

[Quagmire]

I've slept on it, and I think Tierce is the way to go, you guys. Her bizarre play reeks of being caught in doing something stupid, and she seems smart enough to understand why that style of play is stupid.

No because pardon me if I'm wrong but I don't think you've been around at the right time to know Tierce well and I think her behaviour is summed up perfectly by what JDodge and Bella said in Post #168. I do wish she'd stop talking about it, though.

You could be right but I do hang out in scumchat often so you could be wrong too. I can see where you're coming from, but I'm voting for her because of her reaction to it all. It seems there's too much 'trying-to-cover-my-tracks' nonsense.

Also the last PBPA post above ^^^^^^ also is trying too hard. It smells terrible to me.

[Quagmire]

I'm V/LA through the weekend in Kansas City.

[Quagmire]

I haven't really been able to get into this game. Also, an unrelated, outside conversation reminded me of CrashTextDummie's massclaim suggestion for Almost Normal, and my desire to do the same in Closed Normal. I guess I didn't suggest it earlier because it didn't occur to me earlier?

I don't think we'll get anywhere we want to go with a massclaim on d1. I honestly can't tell if you're stirring shit up for the sake of stirring shit up or for the sake of catching bad logic in its tracks.

[Quagmire]

Forgot to include on the last post: And the fact that I can't read Glork at all means I'd totally be down with wagoning him.

[Quagmire]

I'm in on a Simenon wagon too. He's got the "posting just enough substance, but not really anything good" disease.

[Simenon]

I want to lynch Bella.
Post 1 is a random vote.
Post 2 is either a joke (more on that to follow) or it's an attack on thestatusquo:

Glotk, tell me who the scums are.

Obvious sheeping scum.

But it's a ridiculous attack because it's obvious that TSQ is purposefully being obvious, and there's no scum reason for him to do that. And as shea pointed out, Bella doesn't explain why TSQ's sheeping makes him scum. She just throws out a mafiawiki-ready scumtell and expects to slip by with that.

Post 3 is even worse:

Glotk, tell me who the scums are.

Obvious sheeping scum.

I find your jump to conclusions here to be troubling. Like, I get the argument that I am sheeping, that much is plainly obvious (although one could easily claim that I was just trying to make glork take stances on different players in the game. I wont claim that though, I was blatantly sheeping)

But to say its scum motivated is bizarre. Are scum more likely to sheep onto strong scum hunters? I don't necessarily think so. So it seems like a very vague attack without much basis. What was the purpose of it?

Vote: Bella

To call you obvious sheeping scum? :p

I tend to fall on the side of people thinking Tierce is just trying really hard to impress the glorious playerlist with her superwaesome play than being scummy. She just loves us and wants us to like her. <3

TSQ asks her to explain her reasoning, and Bella deflects completely.
Unless the whole thing is a joke (it's hard to tell because of the smiley and the idiocy of it all), in which case the entirety of Bella's posting has contained absolutely no content.

And she then defends Tierce by
a. Trying to flatter everybody on the player list
b. Trying to look cute by posting a "<3" smiley.

And that's the entire posting history of Bella. For a grand total of 3 posts.

Unvote
Vote Bella

I'd lynch the following in this order:
1. Bella
2. UT
3. nhammen

We're not lynching Tierce.

I'm fine with a mass claim. Don't get Quag's vague argument against it at all.

[Simenon]

I'm in on a Simenon wagon too. He's got the "posting just enough substance, but not really anything good" disease.

No I'm actually catching scum sorry.

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote Count:

10 to lynch

nhammen: 6 (JDodge, AGar, Primate, redFF, Glork, Untrod Tripod)
Tierce: 4 (scooby, Thestatusquo, Quagmire, Staeg)
Rhinox: 3 (umoms, Quilford, Tierce)
redFF: 3 (Flameaxe, Rhinox, iamausername)
umoms: 1 (nhammen)
Thestatusquo: 1 (Bella)
Bella: 1 (Simenon)

Not Voting: 0

Current Deadline:

Sunday August 5th, 10 PM EST

[Rhinox]

Why add a vote yourself instead of voting JDodge, then, if you're 'exploring' JDodge's behavior?
<snip>
This is an example of the pointless snippiness and lack of explanation. You are railing against JDodge's description (why, even if it is inaccurate? Why is this wrong descriptor worthy of 'exploration'?) and voting redFF... why?

I wanted to see how JD would react if the wagon got bigger, before explaining. Idk if anyone is scummy for JD's comment, but I thought maybe it could point to a connection between the 2, or maybe just JD isn't paying close attention to whats going on. Usually people don't try to shoot down wagons of 1, thats why I wanted to explore. I could have simply asked "whats so bad about one vote on redff", but sometimes people give stronger responses to provocative statements than neutral questions, and sometimes its the only way to get a response at all. Why do you have a problem with my "pointless snippiness and lack of explanation" (in your words) but no one elses?

Why is this more likely to come from scum than town?
<snip>
Your one point was that he acted lazy at the beginning of the game. Again, why do you think this is scummy?

Town shouldn't sit around complaining about nothing happening, they should be trying to make something happen.

And then when stuff is happening (the agar wagon), town shouldn't be trying to disuade it if they're not trying to move the game forward in other ways.

If we all played like umoms, we'd still be sitting in the RVS twiddling our thumbs, and scum want the RVS to last as long as possible.

Why does his lack of reaction to a quickwagon make him scum?

I didn't like his reaction because some of the votes had actual reasons and he (and others) dismissed the whole wagon as "page 3 lolynch wagon". I felt like he was just trying to ignore it until it went away, and was trying to stick it to everyone by intentionally not giving a reaction. (see here

It was not OMGUS. He analyzed the wagon of people voting him and went for the person he believed was opportunistic scum. Would you call OMGUS if umoms voted anyone else in that wagon?

Well I respectfully disagree. I don't know where you pulled that explanation for umoms vote from, but that isn't what he said. He decided he didn't like the reasoning for my vote because BS rhetoric that doesn't make any sense ("you're just making things up as you go"), and because I was the one poking him to contribute something and he didn't like it I'm obvscum.

Your last question is irrelevant and unanswerable. The target of a vote doesn't define whether a vote is omgus.

And neither do you.

Actually I did:

When people react with "what the fuck is this shit" or "you're just making things up as you go" - that stuff is just useless rhetoric meant to look like you're doing something when you're not doing jack shit.

But this is just bullshit anyways. Agar decided my original comment was something he had something to say about, but managed to not actually say anything about it. I was trying to see if he actually had a problem he could explain, or if he was just hopping on the "train of negative reactions towards anyone who voted umoms for a reason". Which is pretty much trying to determine Agar's motivation behind his post which is what you say I'm not doing but whatever.

Why are you having an issue with JDodge not clarifying stuff when you don't clarify stuff yourself?

I made a statement, which JD misinterpretted and asked me to explain. I did clarify my original statement, but JD ignored my answer and just continued on calling my point bullshit. Why ask a question if you're not interested in the answer?



Look I see what you're trying to do here but you've completely missed the point, and I think you know it. I'm not trying to not clarify things, and I've given clarification when asked. There are big differences between the things I've been asking for clarification about, and the things you've been saying I haven't been clarifying. Even my redff vote, which you called pointless snippyness, I do things like the to provoke responses and get people to ask questions about it. "What the fuck is this shit" and "calling out your bullshit" and "just making things up as you go along" - those are all also pointless snippiness that you've ignored, and the difference is those seem to all have no greater reasoning behind them other than getting in a potshot with no intention of providing justification.

[Rhinox]

As for massclaim, I've been saying I've wanted to try one of these D1 mass claims to see if they're really beneficial, but I'm not sure this is the right game to try.

[Staeg]

As for massclaim, I've been saying I've wanted to try one of these D1 mass claims to see if they're really beneficial, but I'm not sure this is the right game to try.

Explain.

[Rhinox]

I've been in a few games where people have suggested immediate massclaims with convincing reasons (CTD and empking), and it never happens. In the past I've been knee-jerk against it because tradition, but lately I've been wanting it to happen just to see if it really works out like those suggesting it say it will. I'm just not sure this is the game to try and thats all I've got to say about it.

[Staeg]

unvote
Vote: Simenon

[Glork]

I've been in a few games where people have suggested immediate massclaims with convincing reasons (CTD and empking), and it never happens. In the past I've been knee-jerk against it because tradition, but lately I've been wanting it to happen just to see if it really works out like those suggesting it say it will. I'm just not sure this is the game to try and thats all I've got to say about it.

That it never happens doesn't mean it's not a good idea. It absolutely would have cracked open half the games in Team Mafia.

It's a good play. Tierce, Sim, Stag, and AGar are on board. They have nothing to fear.

Let's fuck up some scums, people.

[Staeg]

Okay, glork, I thought you'd read more into that but this is now IRRELEVANT

Who starts the massclaim?

[Rhinox]

OK sure lets do it.

[Rhinox]

Oh and I should mention I'll have semi-limited access this weekend but I'll check in from my phone, just don't expect anything that takes a lot of words or quotes to post.

[AGar]

Okay, glork, I thought you'd read more into that but this is now IRRELEVANT

Who starts the massclaim?

My thought would be start with Nhammen since he has the strongest wagon, popcorn from there.

[Staeg]

I guess that works.

[Flameaxe]

Should probably make sure at least most of us are onboard. Don't want to start a massclaim only to get to someone who flat-out refuses.

Glork: I, pie_is_good's protege, shouldn't need to explain my position on massclaim (or n0 vigging).

[nhammen]

yeah p much, also 44.

You do realize post 44 was one of my reasons for voting him as well. Except you say that my accusations "looked really contrived." The only difference is that I explained what I didn't like about it. But you also said part of the reason for your vote is because I'm "being overly verbose and analytical", so that is consistent. Question: Why do you believe being verbose and analytical is scummy?


JDodge and UT in #150 to #152 are interesting. JDodge calls UT out for lurking and only coming when called, and UT comes when called for the second time. This indicates that UT is definitely reading the thread and not posting. This is somewhat scummy behavior.

Let's double this one back on you: do you think channeling another player's scum meta is scummy? If so, why?

It is both bad play and scummy.
It is bad play because if you are channeling someone's scum meta, then by definition you look like scum. This is the exact opposite of what any alignment wants. It also makes it very difficult to determine your alignment, which could be considered bad play for town, and scum would absolutely love it.
It is scummy because it allows a player to say that their behavior wasn't scummy, they were just channeling this other meta. In short, it gives scum a free out for bad behavior.

This is also bothersome, because saying it 'appears like' stifling discussion suggests that nhammen knows that is not actually umoms' intent. But nhammen has been so consistent in sounding contrived at all times that I suspect it could be a personality tell more than a scumtell. Could do some meta reading to get a better idea if this is true or not, but let's be honest, I probably can't be bothered.

What I meant by 'appears like', is that it looked that way, but I wasn't sure. I actually went back and forth in my head about that vote before deciding that whatever else, it was still a better reason for my vote than 'wagon wagon' was.

My reason in post 99 was because I like day 1 quicklynches, iaun.

Then why does your post #149 say that umoms post #44 was also a reason? In addition iamausername's case brings up an inconsistency that has been confusing me, and explains it well.
UNVOTE: umoms
VOTE: redFF

Not quoting this big post. I just have one thing to say about it. You offer up a lot of critisisms of Rhinox's play here, but do not explain even once why this play is scummy play rather than bad play. Isn't this the exact problem you had with Rhinox's umoms vote? Why is it bad for him, but OK for you?

My thought would be start with Nhammen since he has the strongest wagon, popcorn from there.

I agree, although I wouldn't have much say in the matter anyways... As for the idea of a D1 massclaim itself, I can see how it could help greatly, although I am a little uneasy about it because I've never been in a game where it's been done. The reason we usually don't massclaim is because it would give the scums a roadmap for who to kill, right? Then in low power games, scum can take out PRs easy, and turn this into mountainous. In high power games, it allows town to easily catch scum and break the game open. Is this all correct so far? If so, then massclaim is a bit of a gamble on how much power the town has, right?

[JDodge]

Noting that you shouldn't expect anything from me until Sunday evening due to my low likelihood of full sobriety until then.

[Staeg]

Nhammen, glork already explained why a massclaim is good in one of his 2 massclaim-posts.