NY Mafia 155 - New Age Mafia II - Game Over!

[Simenon]

Oh yeah, why the fuck did JD vote Bella?

[scooby]

Prodanti

[AGar]

Oh yeah, why the fuck did JD vote Bella?

"pressure" to get her to contribute.

AKA, doing fucking nothing.

[Primate]

@nhammen: I mean it feels like an opinion that predates this game and isn't tied very strongly with alignment.

Unvote nhammen

I did think nhammen was scummy earlier, it wasn't just pressure, but I think his responses have been sensible.

Few people looks a bit scummy and not sure who to vote for. I'd like to see scooby with a wagon on him. Quilford looks scummy too.

I could probably do with posting a full ranked playerlist, I have too many neutrals atm.

[singersigner]

Sorry for the wall ahead of time...
I know, I hate me, too.

Jesus, people.

It's Psyche. This is the guy who made the An Analysis of Accusations of Flailing thread and is coordinating the The Science of Mafia - Central Thread stuff. He commented on that idea because he is interested on analyzing it later. Lay off.

redFF and McStabmoms need to die.

This seems like a bit of an overreaction to people just questioning him.

Don't you mean Nhammen and Nhammen?

Before you seemed like you were

willing

to vote Nhammen based on iam's findings (something about "I'd be down for his lynch based on that"), and I'm assuming the vote after his reaction to it meant that confirmed your willingness (?--correct me if I'm wrong here)...so why do you all of a sudden seem so confident in his lynch?

unvote, vote singer

because she needs to claim or die.

She never said she was against massclaim (although she called it a shitfest even that was after she thought it was *over*). She even used the massclaim early on to avoid posting content. Now she's just ignoring all discussion about why she hasn't claimed.

That seems like a pretty silly way to make me do something you probably don't want me doing. Especially considering the fact that I can (theoretically) just be confirmed by a cop, so...

I also

did

explain why I was against posting anything until the massclaim business was over (which I was apparently wrong about it being at one point), so.

As for nhammen, I'm getting a neutral read. I don't buy the argument that his reaction whips him up as scum...in fact I get an "aw shucks guys that does sound pretty damning" which is protown if anything.

I can see why you'd think that, but I disagree entirely.
(Nhammen, this is where I'm responding to you as well) See, his reaction feels cornered, like he knows he's caught, and mad at himself for somehow developing an unknown meta that he can't refute against. Then he goes on to say "well there has to be

something

, but the best I've got is...this?" He's not even confident in his own reasons for why he claims the way he does, which looks like he's just

looking

for something we might believe.

Which is part of the reason I didn't feel a need to initially justify my vote. You opened up yourself to an even more nervous reaction in that you were desperate to find

anything

you could defend yourself against.

---

Adding my comments in bold:

Posting from a library computer.
And wow, less has happened than I expected would.

Not really sure what the point of your post was except to say that you disagree with the way I play.

I've never read a game with you in it, but I think I've heard that you're a strong player, and this doesn't cut it. I doubt this is a matter of playstyle, unless refusal to produce content is now a style.

Can you please tell me where you'd heard anything of the sort? This is a serious question, and I'd like you to answer with something other than "I don't know."

In any case, why do you automatically assume it's an uncritical acceptance of iam's case as opposed to a critical unacceptance of nhammen's reaction? That's pretty clearly neither my thought process nor my reason for voting nhammen.

...because that's what anybody would assume, given the total lack of explanation that you provided?

I suppose I just offered this explanation to Nhammen, but it was clear that I was around and posting several times in between the initial iam case and Nhammen's reaction. As soon as Nhammen ninja'd me with my post, I reacted accordingly, which in turn, shows that I was clearly reacting to Nhammen, not iam. The fact that Nhammen jumped all the way back to something said before at least four of my posts since then shows that he's reaching for anything at this point. Again, with the continued bad reactions thing I explained earlier in this post.

Can you explain how my seemingly empty vote, in the sequence of events that played out, led YOU to come to that conclusion?

In any case, it's perfectly reasonable to think the MC should play out without interruptions/distractions.

um, no, you shouldn't shut people up just because there's a massclaim. Especially not a massclaim on day 1, when the town needs information.
Let's lynch singer. She's got enough of a wagon on her. I think the case on nhammen is looking spurious.

1. I didn't/don't think it was beneficial to us to have people discussing claims/reads at a time that's most crucial for scum to be able to think of something devious. In the same way a full list of town/scum reads+reasons is bad when so many people do it because it only directs scum.

Especially

not on D1 when its whole appeal of effectiveness was to limit what scum could fakeclaim. Why provide them with more information? I don't fucking know.

2. What do you think of what I've said about Nhammen thus far, and do you still feel the same way?

[Glork]

Dodging a prod. Still moving and shit.

Singer: I explained why I was withholding my vote earlier. Now that the massclaim is as complete as it's going to get, it's time to get to lynching.

[Quilford]

Prodding a dodge.

[Rhinox]

Glork:

Of the actual claimed roles, we have...
2 informative rower roles (one one-shot)
2 "protective" rower roles (but not really)
1 roleblocker
1 one-shot vig
9 vanilla townie (1 neighobr included)
1 Innocent Child


This already seems like the absolute maximum power we can expect, unless the game is full multiball. (Right now I'm thinking Mafia+SK.)

Given that this is how you feel about the claims (

and your reaction to my partial claim

), how do you feel about singer softclaiming a PR that "we probably don't want her to claim".


Also this:

Especially considering the fact that I can (theoretically) just be confirmed by a cop, so...

Lynch it with fire!

[bv310]

The amount of prod-dodging makes me sad. Also, the fact that this singer lynch is unlikely to happen makes me sad. Deadline is Sunday, and I'm willing to vote Nhammen just to ensure we don't no-lynch.

[Glork]

Glork:

Of the actual claimed roles, we have...
2 informative rower roles (one one-shot)
2 "protective" rower roles (but not really)
1 roleblocker
1 one-shot vig
9 vanilla townie (1 neighobr included)
1 Innocent Child


This already seems like the absolute maximum power we can expect, unless the game is full multiball. (Right now I'm thinking Mafia+SK.)

Given that this is how you feel about the claims (

and your reaction to my partial claim

), how do you feel about singer softclaiming a PR that "we probably don't want her to claim".


Also this:

Especially considering the fact that I can (theoretically) just be confirmed by a cop, so...

Lynch it with fire!

Actually, I'm willing to wait and see, as long as the full claim (with results) happens at least two days before probably LyLo. Maiden is still fresh in my mind, and pushing DDD didn't turn out well for anyone involved.

The "cop cleared" thing is a bit alarming. Every time someone says that, my knee-jerk reaction is "Godfather." And if we assume we have a "sane cop," it's pretty safe to assume the existence of a Godfather.

I actually really wish our Gunsmith weren't one-shot. There are like four roles I would love to check right now (in no particular order -- Singer, Rhinox, Sim, Stag).

[bv310]

Fwiw, that's the list I intended to choose from anyway. My first thought was Godfather on Singer too, but I'm starting to think it's something dumb like a Named Townie.

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote Count:

10 to lynch

singersigner: 6 (nhammen, Staeg, Flameaxe, Simenon, bv310, Rhinox)
nhammen: 4 (redFF, singersigner, Quilford, Glork)
Tierce: 1 (Quagmire)
Glork: 1 (scooby)
Quilford: 1 (AGar)
redFF: 1 (Tierce)
Bella: 1 (JDodge)
Quagmire: 1 (Bella)

Not Voting: 3 (Psyche, McStab, Primate)

Current Deadline:

Sunday August 5th, 10 PM EST

Seeking a replacement for McStab

[JDodge]

Oh yeah, why the fuck did JD vote Bella?

symbolic rebellion against how apparently the proper way to play a completely confirmed town role now is to sit back and do nothing

i'll have content probably later when i get home from work, very displeased with bev at the moment and may switch my one-man content crusade over to him when i return

[Tierce]

Prod dodging naptime etc. More when I wake up.

[Staeg]

I'm here. What rhinox pointed out about singer is valid. Vote stays.

[JDodge]

I'd also like to take a moment to restate how fucking annoying it is that we have an amazing player list and yet it feels like only 3 of us seem to be putting forward any level of actual effort in playing this game.

[Psyche]

tonight.

[Quagmire]

I'm here. What rhinox pointed out about singer is valid. Vote stays.

No, it's not. It's paranoid.

[Quagmire]

I'd also like to take a moment to restate how fucking annoying it is that we have an amazing player list and yet it feels like only 3 of us seem to be putting forward any level of actual effort in playing this game.

Agreed

I blame the massclaim.

[Quagmire]

@nhammen: I mean it feels like an opinion that predates this game and isn't tied very strongly with alignment.

Unvote nhammen

I did think nhammen was scummy earlier, it wasn't just pressure, but I think his responses have been sensible.

Few people looks a bit scummy and not sure who to vote for. I'd like to see scooby with a wagon on him. Quilford looks scummy too.

I could probably do with posting a full ranked playerlist, I have too many neutrals atm.

You really haven't done much this game. I'd like to see you contribute more as the deadline draws near.

[nhammen]

No I don't. I see you list some examples that support iama's case actually and a skethcy haiku claim that doesn't really count. Then at the end of your post you say the sample size is too small and either way its a bad argument. Nothing you posted actually refutes iama's evidence at all. So why bother trying to find evidence to prove iama is wrong if your fallback is that its a crap point?

Evidence is better than no evidence. It lets everyone have as much information as possible so that they can make informed decisions. If my case is strictly more than calling it a "crap point" and that would have been good enough, I don't see why you can say that this is a bad reaction.

She's pushing vague, simple cases on people who have received little to no attention...and this is coming from someone who supposedly reads a lot of games and has to have studied up on good case practices. Both Rhinox and redFF had virtually flown under the radar at that point...a QuagScum meta, mind you, is to push cases on those under the radar D1 so in the future I can be seen as scumhunting and still avoid the potential spotlights that come with simple bandwagon lynches on protown players (which Tierce has done today also, while defending it with GlorkScum meta)*. Thus, I view this behavior as a scumtell. In addition, other than these few light and fluffy posts, she's been posting contentless one-liners** while still maintaining the illusion of being active.

I agree about her behavior concerning Rhinox, and add to it that she is doing pretty much the same thing she accuses Rhinox of. I disagree with the statement about Red, both because I find him to be scummy, and because I do not feel that he had flown under the radar prior to this. However, I haven't taken a close look at his playerslot for quite some time, so this could be confirmation bias from my earlier read on him. I actually gave Tierce a few townpoints in my mind because of her points on Red, but if my judgement of Red is flavored with confirmation bias I may have to rethink that as well.

@nhammen: I mean it feels like an opinion that predates this game and isn't tied very strongly with alignment.

I remember when I asked that question, I was reading it as this, but thinking that there is no way refusal to comment on the game can be alignment independent, so I must be reading it wrong, but looking back I can understand your viewpoint (although I don't agree), so I don't know what I wasn't seeing.

He's not even confident in his own reasons for why he claims the way he does, which looks like he's just

looking

for something we might believe.

What makes you feel I'm not confident? If it is the alternate case for people that don't accept the weird claim, I decided that anticipating an argument and giving a counter ahead of time is much more efficient than waiting for the whole inevitable back and forth. Like I'm doing here.

The fact that Nhammen jumped all the way back to something said before at least four of my posts since then shows that he's reaching for anything at this point. Again, with the continued bad reactions thing I explained earlier in this post.

Wait what? What is this you are accusing me of now? Can you show me where I did this? If you are going to make a case, at least give evidence thank you.

Given that this is how you feel about the claims (

and your reaction to my partial claim

), how do you feel about singer softclaiming a PR that "we probably don't want her to claim".

I missed that the first time I read #529. Thank you for bringing it to attention. I can say I don't like it.

[JDodge]

Feel like I need to commit to a wagon now with deadline coming closer so

unvote, vote: singersigner

while I finish writing this post/mess around with other stuff and forget and whatnot, with the general note that I feel it equally likely that singer and nhammen are both scum but prefer this wagon because A) it's larger and B) I think if we're wrong nhammen (who's been actively defending himself) will be of more use based on play so far than singer (who has been outright refusing to play and being a bitch about it) will.

Quick note that I plan on paying special attention in the post I'm writing to a scumlist of nhammen, singer, and Tierce.

[JDodge]

I'm going to start out this post by noting that this is a bit of a cash-out of all my current opinions; I feel I'm a bit of a likely target amongst vanillas and feel that any potential inv-immune SKs have a higher incentive to go after strong players than any of the power roles on the board at the moment (if I'm remembering them properly) so I'd rather make 150% sure we have my opinions out fully. Players I would like to see commit to stances on as many people as possible on under the same line of thought include Glork and Quag (aforementioned two other people in the game who seem to be putting forth effort).

Thus this is going to be a long wall of text outlining every little thought I have on every single player in the game in hopes of not only what I just said but also in hopes of getting people to post actual fucking content instead of fucking around whining about how massclaim was a bad idea.

So!

1. umoms/McStab - Promised us a catchup post 2 days ago, hasn't done anything.

Mod: prod/replace plz

not anything worth noting, think one player's lost interest and his replacement's just fucking useless.

2. Glork - Never been able to read, never will be able to read. I think massclaim was a bad idea in hindsight, was kind of apathetic about the idea when it came up so I suppose I can't complain too much about it. I'm not willing to just say that he's town, but my general thought pattern leans that way and at least he's fucking trying to participate.

3. Quagmire - Think nothing he's posted today is indicative of his alignment due to the role PM thing, think he's earnestly trying to play the game in a game full of people who seem more interested in fucking around and thus feel that's commendable.

4. Tierce - Her entire posting today has consisted of two things. It start with a fucking awful gambit... thing that she outright said she was "channeling Glork-scum" for and attributed to a game from 5 fucking years ago. I would like to note how many bad feelings this post:

It's a difficult pick between being called scummy and trying too hard.

gives me. She shows up when she's pressured on now and the rest of the time sits back and coasts - the closest she's come to not doing that was her little replace-threat thing. She keeps offering sort of opinions here and there, saying X is scum or Y is scum in ways that scream "I have a reason for this" but doesn't seem to actually give any reasoning or anything else. It's one thing to say "how can you miss this opportunistic bullshit" and it's one thing to say why the bullshit is opportunistic in the first place - here's a hint, one of those two helps the town, and it's not the one she's picking. Her reasoning in the post after doesn't seem to follow up on opportunistic bullshit - her explanation of "he should be happier!" doesn't really make sense if you consider that perhaps he realizes he's human and maybe realizes he made a mistake at some point.

More content, less acting like you know everything, half-lurking, and threatening to replace out plz. Possible to likely scum IMO, but probably equally as likely worried that she's going to get attacked if she posts any actual opinions since she's been met with a lot of hostility with what she's posted so far.

5. UT/singer - UT's posting can best be described as "showing up when I yelled at him for not being active despite being around". Singer's posting can best be described as someone who refuses to play the game until a massclaim that's going on is over, refuses to claim as part of the massclaim, and all-around acts like a complete bitch to everyone. I feel that she's tied for most likely scum suspect with nhammen, and feel that if this is going to be the quality of her posting as town then we ought just get her out of the way now since she's not going to be helpful later either. I am supremely fucking disappointed in you, I expect better.

6. Bella - the only person who we can be certain of the alignment of. Is doing fucking nothing with it. I am especially disappointed in you, Izzy. You are the most important person in this game right now because you're the only confirmed - your opinion is worth (at least in my eyes) 20x the opinion of anyone else in the game, and you're refusing to actually give it. Please, step it up.

7. Rhinox - I can't read him in a different sense more in the fact that his posts are literally incomprehensible lines full of weird-ass logical leaps and poor conclusions. That being said, I think he's fairly likely town at this point because I don't think the way he's acted so far makes sense from a scum perspective.

8. nhammen - Oh dear

god

is this guy either scum or bad at this game. His reactions to any sort of pressure read like a deer caught in the headlights. His every argument is like a train derailed and smashed into the law offices of Dumn & Asse - a sort of clinical incompetence surrounding people flailing around in the wreckage trying to decide if they want to sue someone or if the baked potato that just insulted them is some sort of delirium-induced hallucination. He sort of drew an arbitrary line on when it's odd people weren't starting wagons while random voting, and has proceeded to just make a bungling mess out of every defense he's tried to make.

The only reason I'm not on his wagon over singer's is that it seems like he's actually trying even if he is completely incompetent at it.

9. scooby - I have no clue, tbh. Just going to skip over this one la la la la la la

10. IAUN/Psyche - I feel that IAUN's supposed catch was complete bullshit, that psyche needs to start posting, and that analyzing him is actually pointless today (less pointless tomorrow) due to the cop claim.

11. AGar - I really, really like his posts when he makes them and wish he would make more of them. Leaning heavily pro-town on him.

12. Stag - Is fucking useless and I'll be looking at him a lot heavier tomorrow.

13. Shea/bv310 - I liked Shea's posting a good deal. I don't like bev's posting at all, and feel that he's been around way more than his activity would suggest.

I am going to put this in big letters for him:

Dear bev, start posting or I will find some way of making my way to Canada and uninstalling MTGO/LoL for you. You have a commitment to this game that you are not fulfilling.

- JD

14. redFF - Is now hyperlurking after his illustrious opening gameplay of fuck all on a stick.

15. Quilford - I like his posts when he posts but feel he's been disappearing a lot, although tbh he might just not be making much of an impression on me and fading into the background noise half the time.

16. SIMSIM <3 - Again, like his posts, but don't feel there's enough of them. We'll see if things pick up once his access improves.

17. Primate - Comes across as being not around much and quite good when he is around, so hopefully he'll be around more in future days instead of just not existing.

18. Flameaxe - I'm giving you a free pass until your semester is over, but once that happens, gloves are off and you're going right into the list of people I am annoyed with alongside bev and Stag if you don't start existing as a player.

19. JDodge - HI I'M DAISY

[JDodge]

as a note, sorry if that post wasn't better/wasn't as in-depth as i'd have liked it, had a hard day today

[AGar]

Singer is an acceptable compromise. I'd love to see Quilford or Tierce flashmobbed today, but given the problem of half the playerlist not playing (I know I'm guilty of not posting enough but I've been getting something in roughly daily at the very least), that probably won't happen.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Singersigner