A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Plessiezarus]

Thanks. I didn't bother to check, that was from memory.


This is still bothering me. Why the masons? They were not being particularly useful, leading visibly, etc. They were not typical N1 kills, even for a team that could afford to off the two of them at once, if that is the case.

This is another indication that there is scum among my giant pile of townreads, and it's likely to be among the strong players. I'm sorry, but you don't let the lot of players who are reading TOWN TOWN TOWN live just to kill two meek, sheepish masons whose PR worth is essentially null at that stage.

Mark my words--there is scum among the strong players in this game, and they are hiding in the numbers of townreads (probably to foster paranoia, to which I say whelp, too late, suffering from it since Yesterday).

I want to lynch clear scum today, which means bvoigt, but I am incredibly wary of the people I've been clearing left and right. I need to see what reads stand up once multiball is factored in and possibly work with that. Work for tomorrow.

Don't really dig this post. Tierce this looks like you're hunting for

something

you were expecting to happen. Also, why are you procrastinating on reading people until

after

lynching bvoigt? Why wouldn't discussing interactions be productive after DCL's flip?

~Zar.

[Tyene Sand]

Lowercase tomorrow, not Tomorrow. That is, today in RL days (we'll see, I have stuff to do), not D3.

And yes, I was speculating about the night-kills. The way the kills are ignored in current meta is disgraceful--I like discussing them and referring back to earlier impressions on later days. Having other people's input on things also helps me put things in perspective and see about likeliness of certain events.

[Minimum]

I don't think the good players are playing that spectacularly and Shadow was likely to be protected, so I don't see the mason kills as problematic, personally.

It probably does make most sense to use the jailer on someone townie-looking with no coordination. Trying to use it on someone scummy just seems like bad play since it's not going to prevent the nightkill (even uncoordinated any halfway competent scum team should have a member who's practically guaranteed not to have been jailed).

[Mastermind of Sin]

While I don't have a problem with this vote, it comes at an odd time - Plum had just presented the case against bvoigt - and it seems to go against the flow of the game.

Wait, what?

Plum's case wasn't even on the same

page

...are you kidding me? I voted Sala as a counter to the Minimum wagon (and still think that slot is scum, by the way), there wasn't even a bvoigt wagon at that point. I didn't even

see

Plum's case at that time...how the fuck could I have been purposefully acting against it? How the hell did you think this was a remotely plausible connection?

[Plessiezarus]

In

A Clash of Kings

, he made Sandor Clegane and Petyr Baelish townies (where town were the Starks), and Tyrion Lannister Mafia. (He also made Melisandre a fakeclaim.) But more likely,

he fucking gives scum fakeclaims.

EVERY SINGLE GAME, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

So Stefan's softclaim is null at absolute best.

Something I've been meaning to ask Minimum (and some of the other players from previous Eddard Stark games can pitch in too). Mina, you said that there was no way shadow could have faked the torture claim because you came up with the role, etc. Since you've played Eddard Stark games before, can you explain how Faraday handles the fakeclaims? Does he give them pre-made? Does he hand them upon request? Are the roles you can fake-claim pre-given to you?

~ Zar.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think MoI mentioned that you request them?

[Eddard Stark]

House Rykker of Duskendale is a noble house from the Crownlands. Their sigil is two black warhammers crossed on a white saltire on blue. Their seat is the castle of Dun Fort.

Spoiler: image

Day 2, Votecount 4

bvoigt (7) - Dolorous Edd, Staeg, Benmage, Shadow1psc Mastermind of Sin, Shinori, kortul

Not Voting (17):

Minimum, Lyanna Stark, Mockingjaye, Tyene Sand, MagnaofIllusion, Plums Yo Mamma, Albert B. Rampage, Regfan, Zdenek, Bvoigt, Plessiezarus, Feysal, Pandora, Saporerint, Starbuck, BBmolla, Jal

With 24 alive it takes 13 to lynch.

• Deadline
  : 22nd September at 00:39am Ireland time. (GMT+1)
  
• Countdown to deadline
  : (expired on 2012-09-21 19:39:47)
  
• MagnaofIllusion is V/la

[Lyanna Stark]

We're not disagreeing with one another. However, they were pretty non-existent in so far as giving opinions and trying to direct town. They seemed a rather benign pair so I'm pretty surprised they were taken out so early. I've seen confirmable town last for several days if they weren't much of a presence before.

Well, you see, it actually makes perfect sense to take out the masons early.

1) The masons were pretty much confirmed townies. Yes, there was some doubt to their claim, blah blah blah, but sooner or later they would've even became more obv that they were masons. Taking them out early would keep the paranoia that there is scum in the strong town reads, or of course, there

is

scum in the huge pile of town reads, and in either case it benefits the scum.
2) No doctor would've really went for the masons. Yet at the same time, scum would be lowering the obv town pool while at the same time taking out the least likely paranoia theory (that SS and green were scum together).

I know

why

it makes sense and is good to take out masons, but I did not expect it in this case. Confirmed town really doesn't mean a whole lot except for in terms of Poe, and when confirmed town isn't really doing much in a game they are not a danger to the scum team. In a game that is likely to be heavily roled they went for masons instead of taking a chance on town power, or on known (likely) town power with shadow.

[Lyanna Stark]

Zdenek - in response to your Post 1673 and my statement to shinori pon entrance. It was a joke. Shinori and I have played together a couple times and he's been scum each time.

(I would respond directly but I'm lazy and don't feel like going to my computer to wade though that post.)

[Mastermind of Sin]

I know why it makes sense and is good to take out masons, but I did not expect it in this case. Confirmed town really doesn't mean a whole lot except for in terms of Poe, and when confirmed town isn't really doing much in a game they are not a danger to the scum team. In a game that is likely to be heavily roled they went for masons instead of taking a chance on town power, or on known (likely) town power with shadow.

Which is why the mason deaths are good information for figuring out who would have made such timid choices...

[Lyanna Stark]

In Post 1592 I posted all the relevant posts of dcl with regar to reads. I looked at that link that he provided of him being scum to see hoe he rated his partners in that game. He gave one a null read and the other he gave a scum read.

If he happens to follow a pattern in the way he lists his partners we can assume that it's quite likely that one of feysal or jal is scum.

Jal spent most of yesterday without a vote or a choose out there. I defended their lack of vote to edd as they said they needed to iso a few people and then would vote, but still they did not vote until deadline. The timing of their choose is suspect as well. In Post 1391 is a vote count with feysal at 8 choose votes and dcl with 12 votes. In Post 1395 jal says that dcl looks town and that she can't get a read on feysal so would prefer him.

(and I just realized that edd put this in his big post)

Feysal didnt mention him until Post 1263 where he labels him leaning scum. He had mentioned Redff before in stating that he's near unreadable and a bit of a vi as far as he's concerned but he did have some minimal interaction with him.

Does anyone have any experience with dcl as scum? Does he tend to follow a pattern in the way he treats his partners?

[Plessiezarus]

If you have doubt on Stefan's alignment, then go ahead and lynch him for the "flip". But every instinct in me is screaming that he's town...and furthermore,

no one is arguing otherwise

. Lynching him today when everyone thinks he's town is pointless.

Been meaning to work on a longer analysis of the Stefan wagon (and the DCLXVI wagon, too) but that will take some time. However, I've already read enough to know (as I thought at the time I first read this) that the bolded is simply not true. Plenty of people voting for Stefan claimed to think that he was scum. (The idea that he was suddenly a shining beacon of towniness and was never going to be mislynched if left alive, well ... no? Does anybody really think this?)

By my count so far, only three (maybe four?) people voted for Stefan despite thinking he was probably town: greenknight, Jal and us (maybe Tyene? she and Lyanna both basically claimed no read).

On the other hand, six people -- Regfan, Saporerint, Kortul, bvoigt, Mockingjaye and Pandora -- claimed actual scum-reads. And a lot of the reasons people had for claiming these scum-reads were pretty bad (I'm thinking of bvoigt's and Mockingjaye's in particular). That's not something we can analyse?

A further four people --

DCLXVI

(the confirmed scum!), Staeg, MagnaofIllusion and BBmolla -- voted for Stefan without giving

any

reason for doing so that I've been able to see.

That's

not something to analyse?

I think both the Stefan wagon and the DCLXVI wagon give us plenty of material to look at, and I think we'd have far less to talk about today if we'd not lynched Stefan (nevermind the fact that we'd be spending large parts of the day arguing about the failure to lynch somebody several people claimed to have a strong scum-read on). Really don't get why you were so dead against lynching Stefan, anyway -- what exactly had he done to make you so convinced he was town? And so convinced that

everybody else

would think he was town today?

~ Pless

[BBmolla]

A further four people -- DCLXVI (the confirmed scum!), Staeg, MagnaofIllusion and BBmolla -- voted for Stefan without giving any reason for doing so that I've been able to see. That's not something to analyse?

Do you prefer a no lynch?

[Mastermind of Sin]

A no lynch would have been better, yes.

[Dolorous Edd]

DCL/Jal/Regfan scumteam.

Bvoigt/Staeg/MoS scumteam.

Starbuck might be some weird third party.

---

THESE PEOPLE ARE TOWN. THEY SHOULD NEVER EVER BE LYNCHED.

2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy)
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce)
9) MagnaofIllusion
13) Shadow1psc
20) Plessiezarus (Zar/Plessiez)
22) Pandora (Hydra)
Salamence20 23) Sapororerint (Iecerint/Saporovirus)
25) BBmolla
pappums rat Amrun15) Zdenek
Hyperion8) Shinori
21) Feysal
hasdgfas12) Albert B. Rampage

THE SCUMS

5) Staeg
14) Regfan
17) Bvoigt
19) Mastermind of Sin
27) Jal

WHAT'S LEFT(the lynches after the above pile)

3) Mockingjaye
Petyr Baelish7) kortul
1) Minimum (Mina/CES)
10) Plum's Yo Mamma
18) Benmage

AND YET STILL WHAT'S LEFT (weird third party?)

24) Starbuck

[Zdenek]

To the end of day one.

The content from the rest of Kortul's last post was fine, nice misrep on him.

I doubt that Kortul is scum with DCL.

I'm leaning town on Benmage, but there were a few things that bothered me with his early play - some buddying and I don't like that he called for snowstorm's mason buddy to claim.

If you're SnowStorm's mason buddy, this is your time to claim. Otherwise your Frey friend eats rope.

UNVOTE: SnowStorm
VOTE: bvoigt

Demanding a claim while unvoting makes no sense.

I'm leaning town on Shinori for the reasons surrounding his becoming a hydra.

Assuming bvoigt flips scum, my town read on Tammy will be weakened by this:

So so so tired of Shadow doing nothing but sniping from the sidelines. Like really, I suppose according to Post 724 he's got some magnificent ~role~ he knows will keep him off the lynch/choose wagon but does that mean we have to be subjected to an entire game full of sniping/cutesy gifs/gloating type posts??? Like seriously, can we just lynch/choose him and be done with it? Please???

VOTE: Shadow

I realize this votes means nothing and I'll be moving it tomorrow, but if I had my ice cream and dreams of lynches it would be this one.

Meh, I don't know what to make of bvoigt. We just finished a game together in which he was scum and I got a scum read on him pretty quickly but that might have been due to his reaction to a reaction test. I don't like his responses in regard to satancat though. Feels natural enough, but the bit about town not defending themselves...eh...he used this as part of his case against me being scum when I wasn't in the game we just finished. I'm not sure I can be partial here...but he doesn't feel the same as when he was scum. But, I've seen him make a case against someone (me) when he was scum and it didn't look like his reasons for voting Sala.

VOTE: Bvoigt

My next most viable scum read.

This makes me doubt my previous comment about MoI and bvoigt.

You realize there's a reason we're hydraing, right, MoI?

Bvoigtwagon seems to me mostly a matter of him being not that strong a player but not to the point where it looks like an easy lynch. His posting seems fine to me.

Tammy, you should choose greenknight.

Failure to acknowledge plum's case.

Okay, so I'm not caught up and probably won't be for another 3 days (and uh deadline's in 4 and a quarter so), so I'll join this thread from here and talk and stuff.

This is pretty bad. Staeg started out fine, but his vanishing act and refusing to even try to catch-up is terrible.

But for now i am more than comfortable with choosing him, and would vote him if his Vote wagon had any chances, he is more scummy than Salamance20.

CHOOSE Shadow1psc

Uhhh...Shadow had more votes than chooses...why the fuck would you be comfortable choosing him but lament the fact that he doesn't have enough votes to be a viable wagon?

In fact, to further illustrate this point, there are two vote wagons of 8 and 6 right now. There are also two choose wagons of 8 and 6. The competition for a Shadow wagon for both voting and choosing is

exactly

the same. The only difference is that Shadow has more votes than chooses. So why the fuck would you say his vote wagon had no chance and then go ahead and choose him, which by your own logic has even

less

of a chance at succeeding?

Unchoose, Choose: Kortul

Kill it with a fiery passion!

You think that is a scum tell from Kortul?

I think this is a pretty bad vote coming from MoS.

Also thank you yes Kortul is scum too.

Why?

So let's vote Sala and choose Kortul. 2 for 2 D1s are hard to beat!

^This please.

Unchoose
Choose: Kortul

This sudden attention on Kortul really rubs me the wrong way. That goes for Staeg too.

Nacho, convince me your Kortul scum-read isn't bullshit.

Regfan, convince me mine is.

Well, he just explained his stance and you ignored it.

So the strength of read in favor of kortul-scum I expressed in my previous post is considerably greater than it should be, upon reflection

Well okay.

19) Mastermind of Sin -- His posts feel barren, but ~~~events~~~ make me think he's town.

can you elaborate?

I feel like Benmage is trying way too hard to get a compromise lynch, rather than picking someone that he thinks is scum and getting that person lynched.

You seem to be one of the few people, if not the only person, to suspect Starbuck. What makes shooting her a better idea than shooting someone who you have a weaker scumread on, but also is more of a consensus choice as scum?

At this moment, Feysal was a potential choice for being chosen, and if bvoigt flips scum, Starbuck is a good guess for a partner.

Feysal's 1263 is a solid post

by 1278-1279 I've started feeling better about Tyene. Then she decide bvoigt is town.

Tyene, post 1294, why was bvoigt town?

What does shadow do? Jailkeep a cop, to find out they have investigate...

Sounds like an uber scum role.

Still down to hang.

My read on Benmage has shifted to leaning scum. He's defended DCL, bvoigt (who will likely flip scum), he demanded that snowstorm's buddy claim and now he'd prefer to lynch the claimed power-role. All of this taken in combination makes him pretty likely scum.

I'm still happy with a Shadow lynch. MoI's "dead man" point doesn't work because we already have outed Masons. I think we should stick with Shadow rather than have someone else claim with less than 2 days to deadline.

Feysal's SS wagon position and greenknight iso make me more comfortable with him as the Choose.

- Iec

EDIT: lolwat.

So it will take a few more days, but the argument stands.

- Plum is probably scum too, based mostly on meta with Nacho.
- Also, pretty much almost every person Kortul looks up is scum.

1. Why?
2. Who?

I don't really understand why you would vote for Stefan over bvoigt here. You don't seem to have a read on either one (unless I'm misinterpreting "haven't found a compelling reason not to vote"?), and bvoigt is surely a more viable lynch at this point?

This is a good point.

And Tyrion is basically Aegon-aligned in ADWD from what I understand (i.e., only have wiki-tier knowledge of books 3-5).

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the mods would have given out scum a fake-claim that is so bad, it could lead to their lynch or no fake claim at all?

Wait, StefanB soft-claimed Tyrion?

Unvote, Vote: StefanB

Kill it with fire.

What?

[Saporerint]

If I understand correctly, I think blind jailkeeps are probably best. We can evaluate the targets publicly, anyway, and adding in that transparency would be the main benefit of open discussion AFAICT.

With Shadow's clear result claim, Bvoight is probably the lynch. I would like a target claim from him before the day ends. I also want to confer with Sapo about our jailkeep before day's end.

I am a bit skeptical of Shinori's soft-claim. I do not understand why she felt it was necessary. (This is not a request that she elaborate further.)

Zdenek's catch-up looks OK so far. I got a different sense occasionally, but he has flips, so ye know.

@ Zdenek

I'm still happy with a Shadow lynch. MoI's "dead man" point doesn't work because we already have outed Masons. I think we should stick with Shadow rather than have someone else claim with less than 2 days to deadline.

Feysal's SS wagon position and greenknight iso make me more comfortable with him as the Choose.

- Iec

EDIT: lolwat.

So it will take a few more days, but the argument stands.

What does this comment refer to?

And Tyrion is basically Aegon-aligned in ADWD from what I understand (i.e., only have wiki-tier knowledge of books 3-5).

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the mods would have given out scum a fake-claim that is so bad, it could lead to their lynch or no fake claim at all?

You have to compare it to the probability of Tyrion being town -- not just to the absolute probability on its own. Tyrion was what jumped out to me when I went back after reading Stefan and Plessie's comments.

- Iec

[Zdenek]

Zdenek--at best you are skimming my posts, at worst you're scum.

I jumped off greenknight because he claimed masons. I didn't go back to Feysal because I was not convinced Feysal was scum. And I was the first on a wagon that result in the death of scum. What the hell are you criticizing here? Don't I have a right to start wagons too? Unless you're claiming that I jumped off a mason onto my scumbuddy and pushed that wagon until the end (which was a wagon I had been supportive of from the beginning due to redFF, I have no idea how you think it makes sense for me to be scum at this stage.

And yes, I 'blather' a lot. That's who I am and how I play. Deal with it.

Explain how me being suspicious of you is scummy, how your read on Feysal developed and, while i asked this in one of my longer posts I'll repeat it here, why you thought bvoigt was town at the end of the day.

Maybe we make like a top 3 townie list... and vote amongst them... so scum really can't kill any of the three.. Me likes this.

I think this roughly a good idea - I mean I think it make sense for us to pick three people to be protected maybe not top three townies. For instance if Shinori doesn't give out his information, I'd like his name on the list.

@Zdenek, i am curious, how do you read the thread? Your comment one thing, than in some later posts comment things that happened earlier. Ie do you reread several times, or are you doing ISOs, or is it something completely different?

When I first said that I'd be replacing in, I skimmed the thread and took note of a few things that stood out to me. Now I've commented on some of those things and gone back over the thread.

Zdenek have you seen Regfan as scum before? To us, the way he voted StefanB looks quite natural coming from him as hypoTown. Plus, Regfan calling people town for reasons God only knows he has doesn't ping my ScumDar (this is Zar speaking).

I have never seen Regfan as scum. Can he not fake his town meta?

What does hypotown mean?

And yes, I was speculating about the night-kills. The way the kills are ignored in current meta is disgraceful--I like discussing them and referring back to earlier impressions on later days.

Examples of you doing this?

Wait, what?

Plum's case wasn't even on the same page...are you kidding me? I voted Sala as a counter to the Minimum wagon (and still think that slot is scum, by the way), there wasn't even a bvoigt wagon at that point. I didn't even see Plum's case at that time...how the fuck could I have been purposefully acting against it? How the hell did you think this was a remotely plausible connection?

Since when do things have to be on the same page to happen close to one another? It was on the next page.

Why did you ignore Plumamma's case?

What does this comment refer to?

The comment about MoI's argument about Shadow's claim being sorted out at night.

You have to compare it to the probability of Tyrion being town -- not just to the absolute probability on its own. Tyrion was what jumped out to me when I went back after reading Stefan and Plessie's comments.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

[Saporerint]

The question was whether Tyrion was his real claim vs. his fake claim -- not whether it was likely to be a fake claim per se (i.e., because the chance of it being a real town role was low, which was the point of both my bringing it up).

- Iec

[Jal]

A few things straight off.

1. There's definitely at least two factions of mafia given what BBmolla said earlier and that fact DCL flipped Stannis aligned. Stannis has few supporters, so there is definitely a really small pool of Stannis aligned left. Maybe, what? 2?

2. Given that DCL was a choose target, he essentially became a vengeful mafia member. There is a good chance, given near the end of D1, that a Stannis aligned individual hopped on-board that choose as there was certainly at least a gain to be had with DCL's death and the tables weren't changing back to Feysal. Also, DCL was only a goon.

Do not

be surprised if

all

Stannis-aligned individuals were on that bandwagon given the role of the chosen.

3. There is a chance that the masons were

both

wiped out by the Stannis-aligned due to a) They were either confirmed town

and/or

B) There was also a good chance they may have been another scum faction.

I have to go eat some orange chicken and I'll reply to people then. Just wanted to get some thoughts off first.

[Pandora]

so when I said 'I will post tonight' I meant 'will be drafted to test a homebrew system till six am and forget what life is'. They're very easy to confuse with each other. At least my character looks spiffy!

I just got some clarification from Faraday that everyones jailkeeping votes will be made public tomorrow in a vote count of a sort so instead of having us all arrange to vote 2-3 players that are fairly universal town-reads I think it's flat out better for everyone to just decide their jailkeeper vote privately, this way we can base reads of it later and it means that scum have very little information to work with when factoring in kills or who sends in the kills.

So I have a neat question here, why the hell would you ask this and why would you tell everyone about it if it's true? This is not the kind of information town should be looking for. Anyone asking for clarification about if their jail choice is going to be outted should be kicked in the balls.
(I see Edd said the same thing. Too little too late I guess)

Re: Mason Deaths, Tierce has a good point about scum possibly not being worried at all. I remember someone I played with making weird kills for the sake of being weird though. They could just be killing for the sake of making people pull their hair out and doubt their reads.

Tammy: I doubt Feysal is sccum with DCL, they were opposing wagons on the same spectrum. His Jal vote is also 'because sheep'. I don't think he would randomly hop onto his scumpartner? If there's anything I'd call suspicious about that post it's that he mentions Benmage is bad but forgets to put him anywhere on his read spectrum. His vote for Regfan is stupid and sounds like 'you read my meta wrong how dare you'. He does mention the Pleiss hydra as being scum as an afterthought.

You are also probably not scum with him. :p

I disagree with Zdenek pointing fingers at Tyrene but everything else he says is sound. If bvoight is scum here's something else for thought:

So I kind of still want to lynch bvoigt, but if Shadow uses his role on him tonight, he'll know if the claim is true and he'll also block him. That could save us from lynching an innocent bvoigt or from an evil role use. I don't know who else I'd lynch though. Maybe Shinori or Feysal.

I don't understand why you (or MoI, for that matter) thinks this is the best way to go. Vig is already a provable role. We'll likely know if bvoigt is lying or not tomorrow, if he uses his kill. If Shadow blocks him, then we'll only know that Shadow

claims that

bvoigt is a Vig. And if bvoigt is a (town-aligned) Vig, we'll have missed out on a chance to shoot scum.

I really don't want to test one claim I doubt by having to rely on the word of a second player whose claim I'm also not inclined to believe.

Have you commented on Shadow's claim yet? Oh, right, no. Have you commented on

anything

since your alleged Mason partner claimed? Any thoughts on the people who were voting for him? Why has the fact you've (apparently) stopped hiding your role made you

even less talkative or helpful

?

~ Pless

Pless tried to direct Shadow1 away from jailkeeping bvoight while disbelieving Shadow1 and both the mason's claims. He's attacking Tierce for 'something she expected to happen' (When if she were scum she'd be the only one who knows what happened last night?) and commenting generally on hydra dissonance is a waste of time.

Which hydras do you currently have a problem with?

Sapo: He wasn't even Tyrion in the first place so who the fuck cares anymore about whether it was a real fake scum town claim?

- Shadowmeh

[Lyanna Stark]

Assuming bvoigt flips scum, my town read on Tammy will be weakened by this:

So so so tired of Shadow doing nothing but sniping from the sidelines. Like really, I suppose according to Post 724 he's got some magnificent ~role~ he knows will keep him off the lynch/choose wagon but does that mean we have to be subjected to an entire game full of sniping/cutesy gifs/gloating type posts??? Like seriously, can we just lynch/choose him and be done with it? Please???

VOTE: Shadow

I realize this votes means nothing and I'll be moving it tomorrow, but if I had my ice cream and dreams of lynches it would be this one.

Meh, I don't know what to make of bvoigt. We just finished a game together in which he was scum and I got a scum read on him pretty quickly but that might have been due to his reaction to a reaction test. I don't like his responses in regard to satancat though. Feels natural enough, but the bit about town not defending themselves...eh...he used this as part of his case against me being scum when I wasn't in the game we just finished. I'm not sure I can be partial here...but he doesn't feel the same as when he was scum. But, I've seen him make a case against someone (me) when he was scum and it didn't look like his reasons for voting Sala.

Hmm...I realize self-meta is sometimes crap and you don't know my scum meta, but this should probably actually give you a stronger town read on me than weaker. One, I obviously gave a vote to a wagon that I thought wasn't going to take off so it couldn't be considered a counter wagon, and I had other counter wagons I could have joined that at the time had more potential. Two, and most importantly, look at that wishy-washy read of bvoigt. Not only that but when directly asked about bvoigt later I fencesat again. I'd say maybe maybe the first wishy-washy read, but definitely not the second. I could have easily used that game I referenced to give a more solid read on him and I would have if we were partners. Fence-sitting about partners is extremely uncharacteristic for me. If I go out of my way to talk about a partner or am asked, I tend to be way more exact than "I don't know what to think"

[Lyanna Stark]

Tammy: I doubt Feysal is sccum with DCL, they were opposing wagons on the same spectrum. His Jal vote is also 'because sheep'. I don't think he would randomly hop onto his scumpartner? If there's anything I'd call suspicious about that post it's that he mentions Benmage is bad but forgets to put him anywhere on his read spectrum. His vote for Regfan is stupid and sounds like 'you read my meta wrong how dare you'. He does mention the Pleiss hydra as being scum as an afterthought.

You are also probably not scum with him. :p

I also doubt that Feysal is scum with him, but I'm a bit wary of basing it on because they were opposing wagons. (Remember heterosexual revolution?) I think if Feysal and he were partners and Feysal were going to distance from him he'd give a better scum read for DCL than he did.

The Jal vote though was a throwaway as Edd was the only vote on Jal so it wasn't like it did anything at all and could be read as him putting an early distancing vote down on his partner.

I didn't notice the Benmage thing but I'm wondering if Benmage would be all "my partner is bleeding towniness...guys we have time to move to Feysal...look how town my partner is." I don't have any real experience with Benmage except him getting vigged in a game before I replaced in so I don't know if he's the type of player to behave this way with his partner though.

[Pandora]

I also doubt that Feysal is scum with him, but I'm a bit wary of basing it on because they were opposing wagons. (Remember heterosexual revolution?)

Absolutely not. I'm pretty sure that game never happened. My therapist tells me so. Regardless the condition you tried to imitate is a towntell for a reason. I think you also believe scum don't want to bus during multiball? I can't remember if you were scum when you said that though.

I supose Jal wasn't ever in real danger. I just don't think it's the first instinct of scum to hug their buddies.

- Not hydraing with a crazy poisoner this game

[Lyanna Stark]

I also doubt that Feysal is scum with him, but I'm a bit wary of basing it on because they were opposing wagons. (Remember heterosexual revolution?)

Absolutely not. I'm pretty sure that game never happened. My therapist tells me so. Regardless the condition you tried to imitate is a towntell for a reason. I think you also believe scum don't want to bus during multiball? I can't remember if you were scum when you said that though.

I supose Jal wasn't ever in real danger. I just don't think it's the first instinct of scum to hug their buddies.

- Not hydraing with a crazy poisoner this game

ROFL...sometimes I just adore you! Yes, but we imitated it because we knew that people would call it town.

I do believe that scum are less likely to bus in multiball, but that is my belief, which I told you while town during Experimental. However, I'm learning that even though that's my belief, and good practice, that's not everyone's.

Some scum do have an instinct of feeling like they need to vote their buddies right off the bat. I think it's a personal thing which is why I asked if anyone had any experience with DCL. He could be the type of person who thinks he needs to call his partner scum or vote for one of them. Some people do.

-I told you that crazy poisoner was scum, but nobody wanted to listen to me