Mini 1368 (Game Over)

[killerjester]

NS clearly isn't reading the entire thread.

[Kublai Khan]

I am pretty much convinced that BBS is scum, and yes, I'm tunneling. Not much else to say right now.

How about... why?

[Kublai Khan]

Also noting that Nobody Special only posts when he is mentioned.

[Nobody Special]

I do not.

[Nobody Special]

And I'm pretty sure I explained why if you'd actually, you know,

read my posts.

[Kublai Khan]

And I'm pretty sure I explained why if you'd actually, you know,

read my posts.

Sure, hold on a second...

That said, I do agree that BBS is being either useless town or total scum.

Oh, gosh. IT'S ALL SO CLEAR NOW. WHY DID I EVER DOUBT YOU?

@everyone: more votes please.

[Melmond]

VOTE: Nobody Special
I wrote this earlier in the game.

Earlier he had said he thinks pecanpie made a good catch, but unless I've misunderstood pecanpie, he's saying that FUT seems suspicious because of coming to CD's defence.
Then his next post he just votes CD to put him at L-1 and says that FUT is just oblivious instead of scum.

And also I think bbstar is newbtown, and someone with as much experience as NS should know better than to vote him for those reasons, when NS isn't doing shit either.

[Idiotking]

Unvote

I do not necessarily buy the idea that bbstar is town, but a newb I can take. Newb scum would make extreme outbursts too, new players just do not deal well with pressure.

I am going to begin my (very, shamefully late) examination of pecanpie, paschendale, and killerjester tonight. Since the deadline is coming close, I'd be willing to accept a NS lynch if necessary, but I'd rather vote for people for reasons that aren't just lurking (given the fact that I've been lurking like hell too, it would be more than a little hypocritical). Which is why I want to examine those three.

[killerjester]

When was your change of heart regarding Lupo? You at least considered lynching him D1.

[basketballstar24]

And I'm pretty sure I explained why if you'd actually, you know,

read my posts.

Here's also why I voted you, NS. Cause most of your posts are fluff and do not explain why your votes follow your actions.

Yes, Kublai is right, NS is only posting when we tell him to.

[pieceofpecanpie]

NS clearly isn't reading the entire thread.

...And not making any attempt to hide it

Just blatantly half-arsed play.

Over here we call that being a shit bloke.

[Idiotking]

OK, so my reads of the three I mentioned. Sorry if this is a little underwhelming. If it reads like I wrote it as I was reading through the thread, well, that's what I did.

----------------------

Pecanpie:

As I've said before, I don't like pecanpie's miller claim, specifically the fact that he seems to be trying to hide behind it in order to avoid suspicion. He is clearly working under the assumption that we should just let him do whatever, because he is a miller, and therefore townie town. For example,

My reasons for doing so are thus: it puts town in a stronger position with at least one conf town to begin with,

as well as basically all of post 246 and the discussion that followed. He seems particularly interested in appearing to be town. His reaction in post 253 is also interesting, since (as Paschendale pointed out) it is one big OMGUS. If is effectively screaming "CD is scum because he does not buy my miller claim." His defensive whining about any sort of suspicion leveled at him after 246 may also be suspicious, but only given his apparent urge to have a good townie image.

As for his general play, on D1 he seemed to have done remarkably little scumhunting of his own, always following after others. He followed me on FUT, followed triangle on Hellhound, and followed killerjester on Lupo (admittedly this is the weakest example, as in 170 he gave different reasons for going after Lupo than killerjester). Pecanpie only seemed to follow the general moods of the town. While this may be fair in some cases, like if someone provides a particularly strong case against someone, it gets to where it's a little unusual when it happens over and over again. Also, pecanpie (rightly) indicates that scumhunting should involve asking questions, as here:

His #155 pinged because it was a pro-town speech that completely sidestepped an important element for good townplay: asking questions.

And yet through all of D1 pecanpie asked no significant questions. Never once to my knowledge did he ever directly question someone he thought was suspect. Sure, he posted a lot of information about the suspects and came up with theories, like a Lupo/Hellhound scumteam, but he didn't ask any hard questions. Also of note is the fact that in post 326 pecanpie expressed suspicion of killerjester and CD (both of whom were suspicious of him by that point), and yet did absolutely NO scumhunting on these two for the entire time until post 455 against killerjester, which was more of a response post. The only thing he did in the meantime was vote for killerjester (immediately following Paschendale's 378, a MASSIVE defense of Lupo and claiming that killerjester is scum) with no argument attached, only to change it later because no one else was following him.

In reading pecanpie I've come to notice a general shift in his play ever since the pressure on 246. Beforehand he was distant, bouncy, and acted positive. Ever since he's been very defensive and angry. This is more of a feeling having read all of his posts in ISO though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Overall I find pecanpie scummy for the reasons listed above.

FOS pecanpie

---------------------

killerjester:

Right off the bat I like his play style much more than pecanpie, because he actually asks freakin' questions, and a whole lot of them. He started in hard on Lupo very shortly after he joined, arguing against him based on NS's L-1 vote on CD, which Lupo at first went along with and later questioned. He seemed to be reluctant to rush to end D1, waiting for the deadline and such. This could be taken either as him being town for wanting the town to slow down and not rush into a bad lynch, or scum trying to distance from what he knew was a town lynch, so this is null. Killerjester then rightly calls out pecanpie for asking about whether Hellhound should be replaced and using circular reasoning in defense of his miller claim ("I am town, so you can trust me when I say that I am town").

Then in posts 372-377 he re-argues his case against Lupo, this time adding in the accusation that Lupo was wasting his vote on NS while Hellhound (who Lupo claimed was not scummy) was being lynched. I agree that if Lupo thought the cases on the Hellhound wagon were bad he should have picked apart the reasoning and scumhunted. The big thing about these posts is that they lead to Paschendale's 378, which I will examine in more detail when I get to him. This of course gave pecanpie the chance to hop on killerjester.

Overall I have a town read of killerjester. His arguments generally seem solid, he asks a lot of questions, his thinking is consistent (by this I mean that he has not waffled), and he seems genuinely interested in catching scum.


---------------------

Paschendale

:

Surprisingly less active than I had assumed. Starts out by going after me about my argument against FUT, basically saying that I was twisting FUT's words into saying that CD was town instead of implying a null read. Then Paschendale pounces on NS for his L-1 vote without reasoning. In a beautiful twist (given his 378), Paschendale basically reiterates Melmond's 122, which talked about NS lurking, putting CD at L-1, and asked NS to give a reason for his CD vote. Then in 171 he follows triangle and pecanpie in their attacks on Hellhound while providing no input of his own other than saying that he agrees with their arguments. He then appropriately calls out pecanpie's 253 for being OMGUS.

Paschendale has been exceptionally cold toward arguments about Lupo. In 205 he dismissed the case against Lupo, then in 374 called Lupo town for saying that Hellhound was town (which is absurd, since Lupo scum could have been distancing from the wagon, so Paschendale is seeing a towntell where the exact opposite should be true). And then Paschendale's magnum opus, 378, his massive defense of Lupo by attacking killerjester. The first chunk of it is mostly just saying "nuh uh" to killerjester's arguments that a town player would question a wagon that was supposedly based on bad reasoning. Then we get to this:

I'm not willing to give a definite read on Lupo. I think he's towny, but I don't know. But your case against him is manufactured nonsense. It's all "town would do this" and "town would do that".

Isn't the entire notion of scumtells based on what scum would do? Conversely, shouldn't towntells be based on what town would do? If a player is not acting as a townie should, isn't it altogether appropriate to call them out for it?

Your entire case is that he's not as active as you'd like. Yeah, being absent from a bit of the end of day 1 is weird... but that alone is not suspicious, and the other things you cite are sheer nonsense.

You dismiss the rest of the argument against Lupo (the waffling over NS's L-1 vote, the apparent distancing from Hellhound's wagon) as nonsense. How is it nonsense?

You tunneled Lupo from the start and didn't offer a single opinion until you sheeped KK's argument and spat it out at me. And it was ridiculously weak, and based off of 1) the very reasonable criticism of a L-1 vote without sufficient reason, and 2) asking for a claim from someone already at L-1. Those are both town things to do. Do you really have any idea how town and scum act?

And here we reach the low point. Paschendale again ignores the fact that Lupo waffled over the L-1 vote, this time

outright saying that it was a townie move

, and further arguing that it was good that Lupo asked CD to claim at L-1,

while also (according to Paschendale's own argument) questioning why NS made the L-1 vote to begin with.

What the HELL? That is some truly terrible reasoning there. It seems like Paschendale is hellbent on seeing Lupo as town no matter what he does. Lupo could burn down an orphanage and Paschendale would say those children deserved it.

And yet just after this, Paschendale says in 388,

I basically have a null read on Lupo.

What? Didn't you just list like 4 things that make Lupo town with absolutely no scumtells? Didn't you JUST SAY that you saw Lupo as town?

Paschendale is clearly buddying Lupo. Comically so.

FOS Paschendale

And in response to your question killerjester, I would be OK with a Lupo lynch for the reasons you've listed, and so that we can find out just what the hell is going on with Paschendale.

-------------------

woo its over

[Nobody Special]

This post is to prove that I don't

only

show up when I'm mentioned.

So there.

[Idiotking]

That is the most useless post I have ever seen. There should be a Scummies category for that.

[Cheery Dog]

This post is to prove that I don't

only

show up when I'm mentioned.

So there.

Would you like to actually say anything on topic to get us further into deciding who we are going to lynch today?

though I'm fairly certain it's going to be you, but you should at least attempt to stop us, right?

[Nobody Special]

We really should lynch BBS. As I said, though, I could go for Lupo.

[Paschendale]

We really should lynch BBS. As I said, though, I could go for Lupo.

I want to do those things less because you say you want to do them.

@KJ: How exactly does criticizing someone's argument mean that I must have an ulterior motive? Here's the scenario.

Person A: Lupo must be scum because of XYZ.
Pasch: You know, that's not a very good reason.
Person A: Pasch must want Lupo to survive!!

If I see a bad argument, I'm going to attack it. All of the defending Lupo that you see is in your own heads. If I see a good reason to kill him, I'll go with it.

I still think BBStar is the better lynch. He's stalling posting anything useful, he's spending an inordinate amount of time simply answering questions, not concocting any theories of his own. His "reads" list only contained 4 people, and only gave reads (both null) for 2 of them. I don't buy BBS' claim for even a second. He agreed to hammer Hellhound for no other reason than a bit of lurking. Not put the third or fourth vote on, but hammer. BBS isn't noobtown trying to get along. He's scum who knows that we'll let him off the hook for looking noobish.

[killerjester]

@Mod: Request deadline extension until we find a pappums replacement

This is not an excuse to be useless. Idiotking needs to put a vote down. NS and Paschendale need to find a better wagon. At L-5 with 2 days left a BBstar lynch just isn't happening. Pick your favorite between Lupo/NS (or y'know.. at least oppose your least favorite)

[Idiotking]

Fair enough.

Vote Lupo

[Paschendale]

Everybody hopped off the BBS wagon just as I got on it.

Well, I guess that means NS. He doesn't offer anything, and only pops in to defend himself. Guy's dead weight at best, cautious scum at worst.

Vote: Nobody Special

[Kublai Khan]

This game feels like a scum's paradise. basketballstar24, Nobody Special, pappums rat's slot, and pieceofpecanpie are all either dead weight or lynchbait. If scum aren't among those four then we are shot.

[Idiotking]

Does anyone have a comment on my 486?

[ChaosOmega]

Vote Count 2.04

Nobody Special (6) - Kublai Khan, Lupo, basketballstar24, Cheery Dog, Melmond, Paschendale
Lupo (5) - pappums rat, killerjester, triangle123, pieceofpecanpie, Idiotking
basketballstar24 (1) - Nobody Special

Not Voting (0)

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Still searching for a replacement for pappums rat.

Deadline

Temporarily suspended

[Nobody Special]

You people. You should listen to reason, you know.

unvote

Vote: Lupo

That's L-1. Any scum on my wagon, feel free to jump over here and hammer.

[Melmond]

You haven't gave us shit for reasoning. Give me some, and I'll listen to it and see what I think.