Micro 28: Kingmaker Game Over

uctriton00 · Post Post #50 (ISO) » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:42 am

The more I think about it, the more I think that if we don't have some kind of voting system or at least produce "serious" reads, you lose the essence of scumhunting that's commonly seen.

Without it, then I'm picturing everyone who is not the king just sitting here with thumbs in our butts, since we have no real power.

That being said, I think that confirms we should keep the king secret. Outing the king means the scum will pay zero attention to what the non Kings think, and won't respond to any kind of pressure. At least with a King (who is almost acting like a daykill vigilante) being secret, you have to fear who's toes you step on.

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #51 (ISO) » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:51 am

I think it's probably better for discussion if the king stays quiet for now, but I don't think it matters all that much. I have to say that I don't really care for a voting system, though. Since ultimately your votes probably won't matter so much to the king (our actual cases being the important part), votes are really only good for posturing.

Right now, I have pretty good townreads on Klick and the Reckslot and a bit on UCT, and a pretty good scumread on guile.

In post 20, guille2015 wrote:Since we are in twilight, I think we can still keep talking about stuff.

If Battousai allows us to bold the votes, then some of us can keep track of the votes.

If that is not allowed, we can simply go FOS: xxxx and bold that. Use that as a measure of votes.

This can read either one of two ways. First, he figured it was a reaction test and then responded like he believed it so he could actually act like he was contributing something. Second, he actually believed that UCT was executed that quickly, which in case his reaction was "oh, we can still keep talking about stuff. like keeping track of our votes!" instead of "what the fuck why did that lynch happen so quickly?".

Empking · Post Post #52 (ISO) » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:32 am

In post 50, uctriton00 wrote:Outing the king means the scum will pay zero attention to what the non Kings think, and won't respond to any kind of pressure.

Changing natural scumplay to be as far from natural town play is a good thing. It makes it much more difficult to be scum.

RachMarie · Post Post #53 (ISO) » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:12 am

@ Nacho

Why do you think Reck's now MM's slot is town? What benefit to town was faking the King and causing so much confusion? And then having to be force-replaced?

Agent_Ireland · Post Post #54 (ISO) » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Ok, just prod dodging right now. I will post tomorrow.

guille2015 · Post Post #55 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:25 am

Considering it was a stupid gambit. I think, Reck's slot is likely town. Not because of the gambit itself, but because I think mafia would have not planned this. Not confirmed town though, but good position at the moment.

I am for the King to stay quiet until it is time for them to execute. The king is not guaranteed to be town, so there are no big disadvantages to get outed. However, the King can make real hammer pressure on players and if the King is town, mafia would have to be careful who they piss off. Makes it easier to point them out.

ATM I only see Nacho, Maverick and Rachmarie as leaning Town. UTC is null, but has spent most of his time in defense and talking about mechanics.

Nachomamma8 wrote:
This can read either one of two ways. First, he figured it was a reaction test and then responded like he believed it so he could actually act like he was contributing something. Second, he actually believed that UCT was executed that quickly, which in case his reaction was "oh, we can still keep talking about stuff. like keeping track of our votes!" instead of "what the fuck why did that lynch happen so quickly?".

So town should always react with a WTF? So, by your POV Klick should have a scumread too.

Empking · Post Post #56 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:34 am

In post 55, guille2015 wrote:I am for the King to stay quiet until it is time for them to execute. The king is not guaranteed to be town, so there are no big disadvantages to get outed. However, the King can make real hammer pressure on players and if the King is town, mafia would have to be careful who they piss off. Makes it easier to point them out.

Town play: Be nice to everyone, they're probably on your team.
Scum play: By nice to everyone they might be the king OR be nice to XXX he's the king.

Whice of the last two choices makes the scum easier to spot?

MaverickMaestro · Post Post #57 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:54 am

In post 23, Klick wrote:Welp.

Nacho, go ahead and claim King and kill uct.

Why do you think Nacho is king?

RXK · Post Post #58 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:24 am

In post 55, guille2015 wrote:
So town should always react with a WTF? So, by your POV Klick should have a scumread too.

see I don't think nachomamma implied that as much as concern with the fact you went "oh someone got hammered page 1 0 fucks given lets talk about hanging votes/FOS anyway"

And Klick only made like two posts in "twilight" where he was not openly speculating bout trying to force a vote system (now that I think about it, they were more or less filler posts)

your posts can be easily viewed as a knee-jerk reaction to the king revealing himself and becoming worried that you would be unable to control or influence their executions

Even though I suppose even with fake voting no one can really control the king's final decision

RXK · Post Post #59 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:25 am

also uctitron pls to respond to my questions in post #48

Klick · Post Post #60 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:35 am

In post 57, MaverickMaestro wrote:
In post 23, Klick wrote:Welp.

Nacho, go ahead and claim King and kill uct.

Why do you think Nacho is king?

Because Nacho and Reck were the two best players, and Reck wasn't king.

MaverickMaestro · Post Post #61 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:38 am

In post 60, Klick wrote:
In post 57, MaverickMaestro wrote:
In post 23, Klick wrote:Welp.

Nacho, go ahead and claim King and kill uct.

Why do you think Nacho is king?

Because Nacho and Reck were the two best players, and Reck wasn't king.

You voted for Nacho then?

Klick · Post Post #62 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:30 am

MaverickMaestro · Post Post #63 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:50 am

Okay.

uctriton00 · Post Post #64 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:28 am

In post 55, guille2015 wrote:ATM I only see Nacho, Maverick and Rachmarie as leaning Town. UTC is null, but has spent most of his time in defense and talking about mechanics.

How do you get those town reads?

I don't think anyone has a town read. There's been no real finger pointing, no real pressuring, no real reacting. I'm incredibly frustrated as to how to begin scumhunting when knowing a "vote" doesn't mean diddly.

uctriton00 · Post Post #65 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:42 am

In post 48, RXK wrote:why do you believe that RVS/artificial spontaneity is the only way to get the ball rolling in a game?

moreover why do you assume that The King cannot produce his own reads?

May not be the only way, but it works.

And the King can produce his own reads fine, but the game is that we're supposed to all help get reads on the scum, in the case the King doesn't see it.

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #66 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:32 am

guile, klick reinforced recks gambit and tried to draw a confession out of uct with his twilight posting, while you were worried about establishing the voting system. you cannot say that you did not believe his gambit because you apologized to batt for talking in twilight. I don't require a what the fuck reaction from every townie in reaction to a gambit like that, but I do require something better than hey guys, let's set up a fake voting system.

so, try again to explain why that was your initial reaction, and, for a bit of a bonus, explain that town read on me because I am curious.

rach, I do not believe reck as scum would try a gambit like that. he has been getting scum a lot lately and absolutely hates being scum. first reaction at drawing role pm again is a bit of anger, then immediate lurking. starting things out with a reaction test that is against the rules is classic town reck. I also don't see the damage you seem worried about. I have got good reads off his little fiasco, and would be hardpressed to produce any sort of content without recks noble sacrifice.

uct, if you feel helpless, you can comment on what I'm posting. do you think that I am just spewing bullshit?

MaverickMaestro · Post Post #67 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:28 am

Vote: uctriton00

guille2015 · Post Post #68 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:29 am

Fair enough.

So, Klick realized it was a gambit and wanted to get UTC to mess up? It's a good plan, except that I very much doubt that many here thought it was a gambit. The same rule that teaches you how to execute says that if you try it without being the king you will be replaced. There is no other place (Other than how to No Kill) where the rules explain how to execute someone. So I think that anybody who has at least read that rule would immediately know that they should not impersonate the king, even mafia.

I have taken the bad habit of not reading the General Rules, since they mostly say the same things. So, it was unusual for me to see the no speaking on twilight rule. I am aware that some games do prevent speaking on twilight, and I try not to do it either way on any normal day. After posting, I wondered if there was something about twilight posting, so I did a quick ctrl-F to check it out. That's when I saw the rule for not posting in twilight.

In this game however, I feel that we should vote who we think is scum, like in any normal game. The nay-Sayers here are saying that this can influence the King's Decision. Yes of course, that's the whole point. We have to help the king make the right decision. Votes tells the King what the consensus is. That is not the only way of course. We should always give out our reads. Regardless, during twilight, especially since I didn't had a chance to voice my opinion. I gave it, because that is what I would have said if Reck had not attempted the execution. I think we should vote, for who we think is suspicious.

tl;dr: The reason that was my initial reaction is because that was my opinion after reading the posts about voting and RVS prior to the fake Execution, and I wanted to voice that opinion before the day ended.

Bonus: My town read on you, is because all said and done, you were the only one that started to look for anomalies in the reactions after the fake execution. I doubt there is scum motivation from your part in that. Before you posted, the talk was between considering UTC really scum or if the king should claim or how voting should work.

Empking · Post Post #69 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:38 am

p.sure Guile is scum. Also, utc. Which means I trust Nacho even more.

RachMarie · Post Post #70 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:42 am

I wanted to post but I HAD read the rule about no posting in twilight. I thought he might have genuinely been the King.

Ok I like that idea Guille, if nothing else it should get more discussion going which is good for town.

@ Nacho
Ok that seems reasonable. Thanks for responding so quickly.

@ Kondi (Klick)
What makes you so SURE that Nacho is King? I find that suspicious since at this point we have no real clue who is King... unless by chance you are scum?

Klick · Post Post #71 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:30 am

Nacho is definitely the best here. And I think people realize that.

What would me being scum have to do with knowing the King?

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #72 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:32 am

rach is also pretty fucking town, which is cool.

empking also seems sort of town. knee jerk reaction to his trusting me (because he never said anything like that before) was that he was trying to buddy up to someone with a pretty good chance of being king, but doing as much so blatantly after pointing out it would be easier to find who is buddying scum if the king were revealed seems strange for scum.

guile, it still seems strange you wanted to talk about the voting system more then you wanted to talk about a man dying on page one, but I can't do much more than throw that out there and hope for the best. I will leave it for now, although I would like to see you put a vote down in your voting system if you care about it so damn much.

uctriton00 · Post Post #73 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:03 am

Maverick/Emp/Klick, why am I getting votes/mentions as possible scum? I don't want to play the entire Day 1 on the defensive, but I really don't want to die early either, so please ask me anything so I can convince you otherwise.

As for now I'm still don't have any scum reads on anyone. Just a lot of OMGUS against the three I've mentioned already.

Klick · Post Post #74 (ISO) » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:05 am

My read on you has changed drastically.