Open 446: C9++ (Avast! Viruses!) - GAME OVER

[D3f3nd3r]

Short Version: Applejack is less, longer, posts. RBD is more, shorter posts.

Before I ISO the ponies tomorrow, I'm having a derp moment. I know what an ISO is, but what on Earth does it stand for?

[inte]

isolation?

dunno

[Nachomamma8]

I admit I don't want to be around at LyLo.


If I was stuck with it, town would lose. Keep me alive now, feel free to Vig or kill me closer to LyLo.

Who the hell called Defender scum? He's expressing that he doesn't want to be around at LyLo so he doesn't fuck up the game-ending decision, which implies that he will be making the decision, which implies that he will be town enough to be confirmed town by that point. Sorry, but he is not such a gifted scumplayer where he manages to throw that bit of subtlety in a post which is asking to be lynched before LyLo. nope nope nope.

Elmo gave me a pretty strong townread for the whole push and pull with trying to get into the game, and Azusa is giving me a townread for a soft defending me a little bit initially, and then slowly letting paranoia creep into his posting.

so add those two to the townread pile of 'stab, cartographer, inte again, bitmap, and kind of doom, and it means I actually have to put effort into reading the ponies.

[Nachomamma8]

applejack starts out yelling at rainbowdash for ruining a reaction test, which is not the best way to start things out as scum when best policy as scum is to get on rbd's good side, which is mild townpoints.

I really enjoyed pushing you when I was scum in Open 393. Don't make it that easy for me in this game, please.

It might just be me, but I don't really think this is wording that a scumbag would just throw out so early on in the game. It's too close to "give me a challenge when I mislynch the fuck out of you again" for mafia to glance over again and not edit out.

ISO #22, #23, #24 make no sense coming from a scum perspective at all, so there's that.

aand I feel decently confident calling AJ town, meaning that there could be scum in solid and rbd, which would be cool.
it would be really, really cool if rbd was scum because it is my dream to catch her as scum and get her lynched legitimately with nothing but charisma and passion. which might make this my favorite game ever.

[Nachomamma8]

doin' solid first so I can save rbd for last.

I have nothing against an early bandwagon. I have something against an early wagon + 'omg quicklynch gogogo' type comments on a person with no content to read at all.

Also, the argument has obsoleted itself since Elmo has started posting.

well this seems sort of strange. 'omg quicklynch gogogo' is okay as long as the person is posting...?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: D3f3n3r

I'm not sure I trust ponypie, though.

this post is fairly shitty mainly because when he initially hopped on the defender lynch and got called for going for low hanging fruit, he said that lurker lynches were the best to get out of the way on D1, but now he's voting defender again and meanwhile is saying that he doesn't trust rbd even though that shouldn't matter because he's just lynching someone who's hard to read.
bleh

I still really like Defender as a lynch, and his last post doesn't improve it (you don't need 5 nks, 3 is sufficient if 2 mafia survive to put the town at LyLo right when he wants us to mislynch him), but I can see that the general feeling/meta/whatever here is that its not a good lynch except as a last resort. Hopefully if we stall and hit the deadline, people will move back to him. I sure will.

I don't like this at all, especially since he doesn't have anywhere else to go off to. He's basically saying that lynching Defender is too hard and so he is now doing... what, exactly? The "right when he wants us to mislynch him" phrasing is also weird but I won't get into that, but... still.

i would be happy giving him a gift of rope.

[Cartographer]

I may be going away this weekend. I will try to post something if I am.

[Nachomamma8]

eh. rbd probably isn't scum.

playing her semi-policy lynch game with defender while expressing scumreads on MS and I really isn't rbd scumplay because it's not her best townplay. it's far better to form strong scumreads, argue for those scumreads, push them.

See this... this is why half the time I try and make others give reasons even if im on the wagon before they are.

I just have this... this... this ability to make everypony go something like "Wow. Look at her. She is so awesome. I wish I could be something like that - so I should vote with her". Or something like that. Thats what they do in my mind.

Yeah its pretty awesome to be like that - but frustrating at times because im left to judge stuff from a different perspective then most are accustom to so its harder to argue points for and against those who sheep me. Makes winning easier though, especially as scum, even though it helps quite a bit as town if im reading half decent. Plus this time its Bit which makes it all the more confusing to me because of last game where they just took advantage of the fact that I tucked them under my wing (and I was kinda right - they werent mafia) and this change is all kind of twitchy tail.

Awesomeness comes at a hefty price.

also, this.
while I could definitely see rbd saying something like this as scum, her saying it when there wasn't much momentum going anywhere seems a bit off. pulling this crap when one person in the playerlist would see it as town while the rest would ignore seems fairly useless for a scumplay, and it also makes people more wary to sheep her when there's already a lot of paranoia going around her this game.

so unfortunately probably not scum.
and unfortunately at least one or town or three of my townreads are wrong.
but i will save finding that for a later date, the today ones are the strongest though because I have had a computer and have looked at this game much more intimately than ever before.

[Nachomamma8]

and explaining the inte read a bit.

so originally I liked inte for complaining about seilkops for not posting enough and giving enough opinions and being the lighthearted rogue i view inte town as. but then i reread his posts a bit, saw the softclaiming vig bit, twitched internally a bit because it seemed pretty stupid and useless and scummy and because I hate soft claims, but vig claims aren't really something that mafia try a whole lot and an sk would probably be a bit more cautious about doing shit like that because it's a pretty stupid way to go out. i also sort of like his most recent attack on Azusa/RBD (thanking Azusa for dropping information on a scumbuddy, mostly) because it seems confident and strong.

so i am back in the inte is obvtown camp, everybody.

[Nachomamma8]

and finally:

Vote: solidstate

fucking lynch this scumbag

[Nachomamma8]

i'm calling scum in {mcstab, bitmap, cartographer}, actually.
rbd is town and someone put suspicion on her, and I bet you scum couldn't resist fueling the paranoia somewhat.

[Azusa Nakano]

'kay, we're not lynching Defender today. Nacho gets massive townie points for flipping back to town on inte because it would have been much more convenient for Nacho scum to remain consistent here. Thoroughly against a Nacho lynch as well.

My main concern is that there is definitely scum among my town reads, particularly given that most players disagree with my Bitmap suspicion.

Given that my weakest one is solidstate (really it's only based on a tentative read on a single post that I didn't like anyway), it's the one I want to flip on the most. And looking back at #372 after Nacho pointed it out, it's really pretty awful. "Hey guys, since the consensus is that Defender isn't a good lynch, I'm not going to actually stick to my guns and keep voting him. No, instead I will unvote despite not really having another solid suspicion, while leaving the backdoor open to hop back on the moment it becomes convenient to do so."

I'm really not liking Rainbow at the moment, but solid and Bitmap's stance on Rainbow does not give me goodfeels when it comes to a Rainbow lynch. So I can't help but think it's mostly just paranoia because I don't feel comfortable putting any faith in Rainbowtown. On the other hand... inte has said nothing about Rainbow in this game. At all. GAH.

I'll keep my vote on Inte at the moment and hope people come around, but I really feel like I need to do an iso on Rainbow and my townreads that aren't Nacho.

[inte]

rbd - leaning town and i wont explain my reasons why

[Azusa Nakano]

rbd - leaning town and i wont explain my reasons why

Hold the phone.

lynch order:
nacho/yoshi/Azusa Nakano/RBD (for something i just noticed, thanks azusa)

yeah way too many

scum reads

RBD your scum game is getting weak

No. Seriously. Why is this guy town again?
(The difference between you and Nacho is that Nacho agreed to explain his reasoning, and proceeded to. You just steadfastly stated that you wouldn't, which is the antithesis of helpful.)

[DoomYoshi]

Thank god this finally came around again.

VOTE: solidstate.

Although, we probably shouldn't lynch until our next replacement comes in and adds yet another set of fresh eyes.

[solidstate]

Hey, at least for the first time in the game someone voting for me actually wrote text I can respond to.

I have nothing against an early bandwagon. I have something against an early wagon + 'omg quicklynch gogogo' type comments on a person with no content to read at all.

Also, the argument has obsoleted itself since Elmo has started posting.

well this seems sort of strange. 'omg quicklynch gogogo' is okay as long as the person is posting...?

Whats strange? I disliked a wagon based on literally nothing. Is that weird? It became irrelevant because he started posting and people started playing for real (and his wagon promptly dissolved). I'm confused by what's strange or scummy about this. Do you think we should have lynched Elmo then and there? Do you think I was defending another scum? Oh wait, you can't possibly think that since its your slot.

This part of the post looks like you skimmed my ISO and then took a kitchen sink approach, tossing in something totally random just to add bulk to your case.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: D3f3n3r

I'm not sure I trust ponypie, though.

this post is fairly shitty mainly because when he initially hopped on the defender lynch and got called for going for low hanging fruit, he said that lurker lynches were the best to get out of the way on D1, but now he's voting defender again and meanwhile is saying that he doesn't trust rbd even though that shouldn't matter because he's just lynching someone who's hard to read.
bleh

You're misrepping

pretty hard

here. Or just totally missing the facts completely.

I didn't get called for going after Defender. No one likes Defender and his play is factually, painfully awful. I got called for going after DoomYoshi FROM Defender, based on McStab's case on Yoshi, putting Yoshi up to L-1 and prompting his doctor claim. After that very few wanted to continue after the claimed Doc (myself included), I went back to defender, who I had been on previously. I won't (and haven't) argued that going for Yoshi wasn't a bit sheepy/opportunistic, but it was hardly without justification.

As for saying I still didn't trust the pony thing, I've been consistent in that stance from the very beginning of the game. They act like they're in secret communication (RBD once posted telling us what Applejack was going to post), and both of them consistently refuse to give complete explanations. Its cagey. But I think they're more likely to produce some interesting content that will tell us what's going on in the game so I don't really think RBD is a good D1 lynch.

I still really like Defender as a lynch, and his last post doesn't improve it (you don't need 5 nks, 3 is sufficient if 2 mafia survive to put the town at LyLo right when he wants us to mislynch him), but I can see that the general feeling/meta/whatever here is that its not a good lynch except as a last resort. Hopefully if we stall and hit the deadline, people will move back to him. I sure will.

I don't like this at all, especially since he doesn't have anywhere else to go off to. He's basically saying that lynching Defender is too hard and so he is now doing... what, exactly?

Other people are allowed to lurk the entire thread but I can't take my vote off a wagon that's going nowhere (and that numerous people have said they won't ever join because they refuse to policy lynch) without immediately revoting? If you want to lynch me for not jumping on another vote immediately, that's about the most hypocritical bullshit ever, since your case is built on me... moving my vote too fast. It sounds like you're setting up a catch 22 such that I'm guilty no matter what my actions actually are.

The "right when he wants us to mislynch him" phrasing is also weird but I won't get into that, but... still.

How is it weird? Defender literally made the following argument: 'I'm a terrible lylo player but don't lynch me today, wait until Day 3'. He wants to be lynched on D3.

And day 3 could BE LyLo.

Do you understand my statement now?

[solidstate]

Oh, another reason I haven't gone for RBD:

Despite the ludicrousness of her whole 'I am so awesome, awesome awesome awesome' routine, people do seem to be giving her experience credit/following her. Between that and her massclaim thing, if she's not scum, I think she'll be someone scum will want to lynch, and so making them choose between priority targets seems beneficial.

[inte]

holding phone

yeah sure man i can't change reads either. nope not allowed

[Azusa Nakano]

yeah sure man i can't change reads either. nope not allowed

So, let's see here. (My apologies for falsely claiming you'd said nothing about Rainbowdash, btw. I always think of them as Rainbow, so I didn't think to check for rbd. If I missed any other comments, let me know.)

In every earlier post in which you mention Rainbow, you either state or imply that you think they are scummy, without giving any reasoning. Now suddenly you've swung around and said that Rainbow is town, without giving any reasoning. In fact, outright refusing to. You're right. This is completely innocuous. I'm just confused- if you found a towntell strong enough to override a feeling you seem to have had for a good chunk of the game... why are you refusing to share it? How is this pro-town in any way?

Admittedly, the only way I see it benefitting intescum is distancing from a Rainbowtown lynch, that doesn't make it not weird as hell.

And I've already explained why I consider this vastly different from the instance of Nacho, although here we also have a larger sample size, thus making the sudden change even weirder. Also, what happened to Nacho being scummy because he changed his mind on you without explanation? Or is it only scummy when other people do it?

[Rainbowdash]

Vote McStab

I am still completely fine lynching defender, his reads post of essenitally "Everypony is varying degrees of null" doesnt do much for me. Im just hoping he gets replaced. Just seems that one is going nowhere and we are running up on deadline fast.

The extent of MS this game is attacking DY even post claim and being really selective on meta when attacking me. I love breaking opens as town (and to and extent as scum) because they usually are vaugely breakable. Ive gotten one recently pulled from the open list because of how breakable it was.

[D3f3nd3r]

RBD, there's a chance I'm wrong. IMO not many people in the game are really easy to read.

[solidstate]

Ok, so now that I've had some not at work time to do a thorough read and get post links and all that... Oddly, I agree with this, even if I obviously disagree with everything else from Nacho:

i'm calling scum in {mcstab, bitmap, cartographer}, actually.
rbd is town and someone put suspicion on her, and I bet you scum couldn't resist fueling the paranoia somewhat.

I wouldn't go as far as to say 'RBD is town', but I've explained why I think RBD is a bad lynch today. She very well could be town, and if she's not I think we'll figure it out soon enough.

So I have raised suspicion on the people who are holding votes on her. Looking back at these posters:

Bitmap: Hard to read because his posts are short and there's a lot of goofing around, but he has a very good reason to be suspicious of RBD since he apparently knows her meta. While he seems to be easing back in his suspicion on RBD (in post 322), especially after her clarifactions about how the massclaim should be carried out (ie, not today), he's still voting her. I'm not clear on his position so that's a little iffy.

Cartographer: I like Cartographer's posting because it is clear and well-reasoned with plenty of evidence. Of any player in this game, I think he makes his thought process the most transparent. Granted scum can play that way to appear helpful (arguably its how I played scum my first newbie game), but I just have trouble finding it ungenuine. He's also spent a lot of time pressing Applejack and RBD to be more open, so I feel his vote on RBD is consistent with genuine pressure to get them talking and giving reasonings. In fact, he's made a point that his entire purpose in the game is to get people to post cases so they can be held to them (post 390). This is a great instinct, and his suspicion toward people who aren't doing it (RBD and Apple) seems pretty legit. So I'm willing to say his play is very pro-town right now.

McStab: In ISO, I realize there's not much content from him. McStab is who I followed into the Yoshi wagon. Maybe in hindsight the case he posted isn't as strong as I read it, but re-reading I don't think its awful and I don't think its evidence against him. DoomYoshi looked suspicious to a lot of people, he hasn't really improved since, and if he didn't have a doctor claim he'd definitely already be dead.

After RBD's massclaim suggestion, he puts his vote on her. However, if that's his entire case right now, I don't think the vote is warranted. RBD has explained that the massclaim isn't supposed to happen today, its supposed to happen D2 or D3 and only if we get the right flips. Pre-lynching her does not seem pro-town. He gives some justification in 298 but I don't think its credible. This game is not the same as the other game, and there's no indication anyone is so 'curious' about the massclaim that we'll just do it without further discussion. That feels like a misrep of the entire town to me.

So with all of that listed, I basically have the same logic for both Bitmap and McStab so its hard to distinguish between them. I'm going to pick somewhat on instinct, but also because Bitmap seems a little more flexible and due to that post from McStab: Hopefully Bitmap can either elaborate on the RBD situation or agree that we can leave her massclaim issues until D2+.

VOTE: Mcstab

[Azusa Nakano]

Given the fact that pretty much everybody has at least one person they want to kill more, I'm not getting an inte lynch, so I'm moving on. (Also, I'm sorry inte, I completely forgot about #13, where you also seem to imply suspicion of Rainbow, and #68, which was complete and total fluff which said nothing.)

Reread my townreads. I won't post my notes again, although they are far more succinct and fragmented this time. Applejack and Carto are still town. I misjudged Demon Core- he's basically null in my book now. A lot of active lurking and fluff. Solid is a slight scumread, primarily for reasons already given. However, his cases in #420 are actually really good. Yoshi is still town, although not as sure as I was before.

Also, McStab is scum. Here's why:

McStab lurks through the beginning of the game, and his first real content is the case against Yoshi. As I said in my original post, McStab's case against Yoshi was weak as all hell. Based on stretches, nulltells, and taking things out of context. Feelings toward this hasn't changed. It's pretty easy for scum to spin nulltells into scumtells, and although clueless town are going to stretch and take things out of context, it's still scummy to do it. He then never responds to Yoshi's defense, essentially implying that he agrees that the case was based on nothing. When Yoshi presses him on the matter, he still doesn't respond. The "Hey, let's lynch the claimed doc" is awful for already established reasons.

I also completely misinterpreted #183. It was actually a snipe at Applejack. McStab points out what he considers to be a double-standard, but never elaborates on if he finds it scummy or not. He also does seem to slip in a snipe at solidstate's behavior in here, but he doesn't follow up on it ever. He doesn't explain what his read on solidstate currently is... nothing. He then never brings it up again, and seems to completely forget about Applejack until the latest post, where suddenly she's a top lynch candidate. Why? No explanation.

After promising more content, he vanishes for another three days. After that, he's solely focused on Rainbowdash, solely based on theory meta. That's it. No comments on the actual content that has been posted by Rainbow. He then relies on the meta of one game to declare Rainbow to be scum, and basically completely runs with that. It's just incredibly weaksauce and forced as all hell, just like the other case.

Also, his reads are incredibly few and far between and except for Rainbow, Applejack (with no explanation), and Defender (except not really. He said he'd be okay with a defender lynch, but there is no explanation on WHY he'd be okay with the lynch in the first place), he hasn't commented on anybody. At all.

I should never have given that townread, it was complete nonsense. I like this wagon. Die.
UNVOTE: Inte
VOTE: Vote: McStab

[DoomYoshi]

VOTE: mcstab

For laying too low. There is a reasonable low, and then there is limbo champion here McStab.

QFT

[McStab]

Given the fact that pretty much everybody has at least one person they want to kill more, I'm not getting an inte lynch, so I'm moving on. (Also, I'm sorry inte, I completely forgot about #13, where you also seem to imply suspicion of Rainbow, and #68, which was complete and total fluff which said nothing.)

Reread my townreads. I won't post my notes again, although they are far more succinct and fragmented this time. Applejack and Carto are still town. I misjudged Demon Core- he's basically null in my book now. A lot of active lurking and fluff. Solid is a slight scumread, primarily for reasons already given. However, his cases in #420 are actually really good. Yoshi is still town, although not as sure as I was before.

Also, McStab is scum. Here's why:

McStab lurks through the beginning of the game, and his first real content is the case against Yoshi. As I said in my original post, McStab's case against Yoshi was weak as all hell. Based on stretches, nulltells, and taking things out of context. Feelings toward this hasn't changed. It's pretty easy for scum to spin nulltells into scumtells, and although clueless town are going to stretch and take things out of context, it's still scummy to do it. He then never responds to Yoshi's defense, essentially implying that he agrees that the case was based on nothing. When Yoshi presses him on the matter, he still doesn't respond. The "Hey, let's lynch the claimed doc" is awful for already established reasons.

I also completely misinterpreted #183. It was actually a snipe at Applejack. McStab points out what he considers to be a double-standard, but never elaborates on if he finds it scummy or not. He also does seem to slip in a snipe at solidstate's behavior in here, but he doesn't follow up on it ever. He doesn't explain what his read on solidstate currently is... nothing. He then never brings it up again, and seems to completely forget about Applejack until the latest post, where suddenly she's a top lynch candidate. Why? No explanation.

After promising more content, he vanishes for another three days. After that, he's solely focused on Rainbowdash, solely based on theory meta. That's it. No comments on the actual content that has been posted by Rainbow. He then relies on the meta of one game to declare Rainbow to be scum, and basically completely runs with that. It's just incredibly weaksauce and forced as all hell, just like the other case.

Also, his reads are incredibly few and far between and except for Rainbow, Applejack (with no explanation), and Defender (except not really. He said he'd be okay with a defender lynch, but there is no explanation on WHY he'd be okay with the lynch in the first place), he hasn't commented on anybody. At all.

I should never have given that townread, it was complete nonsense. I like this wagon. Die.
UNVOTE: Inte
VOTE: Vote: McStab

I love how quick the wagon falls apart on RBD and switches to me when she does a shitty OMGUS vote.


To answer RBD's case:

A) My supposed "lurker" qualities are something that I've exhibited sitewide recently; hence, not alignment indicative, but availability indicative.

B) "Selective meta" is BS. My experience with you is in Open 421 where you played EXACTLY the same way as leader of the scumteam. I don't care about your logic of it being "game-breaking" because all you did was destroy the town. Seriously, we had six PRs, and even then we lost to the SK as a result of RBD's actions, which mimic this.


Nah, RBD and DoomYoshi are pushing these cases against me because I've pushed both of them as scum and now is there chance for OMGUS revenge. If this isn't brutally apparent then look at their shitty cases. "He's lurking" is what it amounts to, and that's a sitewide behaviour I've exhibited, not alignment indicative. They're trying to go after an easy target who also has been the STRONGEST PROPONENTS OF THEIR LYNCHES. Their lack of scumhunting and concern over self-image should be evident for all to see.

My case was strong enough to push Yoshi to have to claim, so I don't think your standards of it being "weak" are quite correct. I still do want to lynch DoomYoshi; I don't think he's a doc, and it's an easy enough claim to make, particularly because if he gets counterclaimed the real doc gets outed.

Any "lurking" on my part is an invalid argument, so nice try to misconstrue the facts and take them out of context, Azusa.

My read on Applejack is largely associative with RBD, who I find scummy, and that he pushed the counterwagon to Yoshi, another scumread of mine. Is it not a great argument? Sure. But Day One rarely is a slam dunk. If people won't go for an RBD lynch or a DoomYoshi lynch, Applejack is the next best. I am null on solid at the moment.

Also LOL at those of you considering brevity and not giving up all my reasons for reads as scummy; you're easily manipulated by scum if you giveup all your townreads.

Your sudden about face from a townread on me and my "genuine efforts" to number one scumread on a scum-motivated wagon with terrible reasoning is noted, Azusa. If RBD or Doom flip scum you should be next.

For those of you not wanting to read all of this, long story short is:

DoomYoshi's case on me amounts to lurking. It sucks, and is OMGUS motivated. He backed off my attack earlier, but now that he thinks he has backup he's going after me again. NOT REAL SCUMHUNTING.

RBD misconstrues the case on me as "selective meta". This is, again, OMGUS, as I've defended myself against her manipulative and shallow accusations.

Azusa does a total about face and tries to excuse it using a synthesis of both arguments. While this alone doesn't warrant a vote, a flip by RBD or Doom as scum does warrant a lynch on Azusa.


It's so funny that 2/3 of the pushers on my wagon are people I pushed hard on earlier, and now they're acting as though they're totally impartial. lulz

[Rainbowdash]

@MS - When your entire case on me basically falls to something that is, and can be proven to be, a null tell... yeah im going to call you on that shit. It would be like me saying you are scum for lurking (which I never did). Its something that has absolutely nothing to do with alignment. I can list off multiple games I have 'broken' as scum and town. This isnt even breaking, this is just optimizing actions.

Im not saying you are lurking either, I am saying that the two things you are doing is continuing to call a claimed PR scum and voting them (which shouldnt due to 421 be a scumtell? the entire scumteam and the SK voted the claimed PR) and calling me scum for something that I do regardless of alignment. Thats basically all you have commented on of significance.

Being selective on the meta is the worst though. You say "oh RBD did that in 421 so she must be scum" while you actually ignore the game I linked (C9++) where I did the EXACT same thing I am doing here as town. I even show in the dead QT how it pays off and caught the entire team. When you are saying "meta says X" and refuse to look at a sample size of more than one game when I provide you with an identical example (not a 'well this is close' but actually an identical setup to this game), thats scummy. If we are going to go off of single game meta you are obv-scum this game because you are not changing your opinion much as compared to 421.

Also I did note the humor and irony in getting IMMEDIATELY SHEEPED again when I did something. I swear im like the magical pony shepard or something. Even when I dont really want to be I take that role.