Mini 1368 (Game Over)

[triangle123]

Eh, it seems more like something newbtown would do than scum would.

Then why did you continue to vote him after the hammer if you thought it was something more likely to come from town?

You people. You should listen to reason, you know.

Can we hear some of your reasoning?

[Melmond]

Then why did you continue to vote him after the hammer if you thought it was something more likely to come from town?

I didn't know who I would move the vote to. And I didn't think to unvote right away.

[Paschendale]

And also I think bbstar is newbtown, and someone with as much experience as NS should know better than to vote him for those reasons, when NS isn't doing shit either.

Giving someone a pass for doing something dumb is just like giving them a pass for lurking. If you don't punish it, then you give scum a way to hide. In my experience, people who do anti-town things consistently are scum, and when you dismiss them as just noobish, it tends to come back to bite you.

[Idiotking]

Paschendale, do you have anything to say in response to my 486?

[Paschendale]

You think I'm defending Lupo when I'm actually just pointing out flaws in the arguments against him. That's kind of meaningless unless Lupo turns out to be scum. I don't want to waste a lynch and night phase on a wagon that looks wrong to me. I want to catch the actual scum.

I admit that I've been a little inconsistent about him, mind you. I gave him a strong townread in 374. That was probably far more certain that I really was. His actual content is pretty lackluster. It's only the nature of vote in day 1 that makes him lean town. But I do think that very clearly not lynching town is a decent reason to see someone as town. Of course, that will evaporate if NS flips town, since Lupo voted for NS, who is our prime suspect right now. You even admit how scummy NS looks. Choosing one town over another to lynch is equally towny or scummy. But if NS flips scum, then Lupo is essentially cleared. Why waste today's lynch on Lupo when NS looks scummier and that flip will tell us about Lupo?

[Nobody Special]

Please enlighten me. How have I been scummy?

[Lupo]

Please enlighten me. How have I been scummy?

Please enlighten us...How have you not?

[Idiotking]

You think I'm defending Lupo when I'm actually just pointing out flaws in the arguments against him. That's kind of meaningless unless Lupo turns out to be scum. I don't want to waste a lynch and night phase on a wagon that looks wrong to me. I want to catch the actual scum.

Well that's interesting, because you are effectively doing what killerjester said that Lupo should have done about the Hellhound wagon. You are arguing that the case against Lupo is bad and trying to point out reasons why. That is scumhunting. However, you let Lupo slide without giving a reason for why the Hellhound wagon was bad. So how come it's OK for Lupo to forego scumhunting an iffy wagon? This indicates that you are not just pointing out 'flaws' in the case against Lupo (if that were all then you'd be fine even if I didn't agree with your arguments), but willing to let him get away with scumtells, turning your arguments into protection. That goes way over into buddying territory.

But I do think that very clearly not lynching town is a decent reason to see someone as town.

This is just flat out wrong. Lupo did not explain why the Hellhound wagon was bad. If he did, and if his arguments were solid, maybe then it would be town. Lacking that, the only reasonable explanation is trying to distance from the wagon, which scum are more likely to do if they know that the lynch is a sure thing.

Of course, that will evaporate if NS flips town, since Lupo voted for NS, who is our prime suspect right now. You even admit how scummy NS looks. Choosing one town over another to lynch is equally towny or scummy. But if NS flips scum, then Lupo is essentially cleared. Why waste today's lynch on Lupo when NS looks scummier and that flip will tell us about Lupo?

I'm willing to buy the possibility that NS is a blithering idiot, in which case scum could use him to bus if NS is scum. What about a NS scum flip would clear Lupo? A NS lynch shouldn't clear anyone at all. A Lupo flip, however, would go a long way to clearing up my suspicions of you if he flips town, and would basically set killerjester as confirmed townie if Lupo flips scum.

[killerjester]

His [Lupo's] actual content is pretty lackluster

...

But if NS flips scum, then Lupo is essentially cleared. Why waste today's lynch on Lupo when NS looks scummier and that flip will tell us about Lupo

Why would we want to clear a useless town with lackluster content? If you're going by informational benefits alone, Lupo is the better lynch today.

[pieceofpecanpie]

This game feels like a scum's paradise. basketballstar24, Nobody Special, pappums rat's slot, and pieceofpecanpie are all either dead weight or lynchbait. If scum aren't among those four then we are shot.

Explain your choices please. Or to be exact, explain what reasons you have for omitting the players not mentioned.

If you're going by informational benefits alone, Lupo is the better lynch today.

People not on Lupo's wagon heed this.

[Cheery Dog]

His [Lupo's] actual content is pretty lackluster

...

But if NS flips scum, then Lupo is essentially cleared. Why waste today's lynch on Lupo when

NS looks scummier

and that flip will tell us about Lupo

Why would we want to clear a useless town with lackluster content? If you're going by informational benefits alone, Lupo is the better lynch today.

The fact he said NS looks scummier means that it's not based on informational benefits alone.

If you're going by informational benefits alone, Lupo is the better lynch today.

People not on Lupo's wagon heed this.

I would much rather dead scum than living information.

[Idiotking]

That's... strange. Having information on living players would let us catch scum easier, leading to more dead scum. Given that a Lupo flip would help us narrow down the possibilities of potential scum, whereas a NS flip wouldn't at all, a Lupo lynch would be better.

[Paschendale]

Why wouldn't lynching the one who we think is more likely scum better?

[Idiotking]

As a rule, the town should always, ALWAYS want more information. It's really sad that I should have to explain that.

Anyway, the information aspect is just one part of why Lupo is better. Lupo is outright scummy. NS is useless and anti-town. While I am all for killing anti-town players when there are no straight-up scummy players present, if one IS present, then killing the scummy player is a better lynch. The only thing that NS has done of note that I can remember is putting CD at L-1 on D1, and Lupo's reaction to that is scummier. Other than that NS has been an utterly useless active lurker, which is anti-town, not scummy. There have been a whole lot of lurkers in this game, including me. Are they all scum?

I'm beginning to think that the driving force behind a NS lynch is that NS is easy pickings, thus appealing to scum. Obviously if my Lupo/Paschendale scum theory is correct, then there would be at least two scum on NS's wagon, and they wouldn't support a Lupo lynch, again for obvious reasons. Unfortunately, as I've said before, a NS lynch would not really indicate anyone's alignment, because he is such a horrible player. Thus D3 would come and we'd still be in the exact same position we are today, minus a townie if the scum NK.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Unfortunately, as I've said before, a NS lynch would not really indicate anyone's alignment, because he is such a horrible player. Thus D3 would come and we'd still be in the exact same position we are today, minus a townie if the scum NK.

Minus two townie's depending on NS' flip. And I give him every chance of flipping town. He could be town, vig, scum, a raspberry-flavoured lollipop. Considering his level of contribution there is no telling what he is, and no leads for town the following day.

[killerjester]

CD, you seem to think Lupo is town. How so?

[Idiotking]

Pecanpie, do you have any response to my read of you?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Do you want one?

[Cheery Dog]

CD, you seem to think Lupo is town. How so?

While the switch to NS was bad, I would say it's not indicative of alignment.

At that point in the game, everyone's attention was pretty much on me and my extensive reaction test, so I'm not actually sure how valid that part of the case against Lupo is.
As for the defence of hellhound which didn't exist, there was disagreement posted, and since the hellhound case didn't build up much more than what it was then, I'm also not sure how it indicates Lupo as scum.

Thus I am having trouble seeing why Lupo is scum. He's in my leaning town category because he's being attacked for stuff I don't see which actually confirms him either way, by people I consider may be scum.

[pieceofpecanpie]

CD, you seem to think Lupo is town. How so?

While the switch to NS was bad, I would say it's not indicative of alignment.

So he should have stuck with you and pushed for your lynch?

At that point in the game, everyone's attention was pretty much on me and my extensive reaction test, so I'm not actually sure how valid that part of the case against Lupo is.

Unless of course he was your buddy who was bussing and then when the unvotes started (not by Lupo) he saw more sense in jumping on an alternative wagon. That's one theory anyway...

As for the defence of hellhound which didn't exist, there was disagreement posted, and since the hellhound case didn't build up much more than what it was then, I'm also not sure how it indicates Lupo as scum.

There was plenty of deliberation on Hellhound, there is no certainty what was and wasn't scum driven, but if we play the old meta game we can assume that at least one scum was on the wagon and one scum off. Lupo's decision to wander off for over a week without making any inroads into why Hellhound wasn't a good lynch target is not something to be regarded as pro town. Along with some other circumstantial evidence it's not hard to consider Lupo as potential scum for hanging off the wagon, or at the very least scummy in his actions.

Thus I am having trouble seeing why Lupo is scum. He's in my leaning town category because he's being attacked for stuff I don't see which actually confirms him either way, by people I consider may be scum.

Tell me, why is NS scum?

Also, what do you mean Lupo is being attacked for stuff you don't see? Didn't you just begin with

"while the switch to NS was bad..."

? So you see things that are bad, but they don't indicate alignment? What does NS do that indicates his alignment?

Also, you think there are people you consider scum on Lupo's wagon. Have they had any association with NS or is there any information to gain from an NS lynch that would help confirm these people as scum? Is there more opportunity to go after these scummy players if NS flips?

[Kublai Khan]

Please enlighten me. How have I been scummy?

You're self-consciously playing towards your town meta.

[Cheery Dog]

CD, you seem to think Lupo is town. How so?

While the switch to NS was bad, I would say it's not indicative of alignment.

So he should have stuck with you and pushed for your lynch?[/quote]
If he believed me to be scum yes.

As for the defence of hellhound which didn't exist, there was disagreement posted, and since the hellhound case didn't build up much more than what it was then, I'm also not sure how it indicates Lupo as scum.

There was plenty of deliberation on Hellhound, there is no certainty what was and wasn't scum driven, but if we play the old meta game we can assume that at least one scum was on the wagon and one scum off. Lupo's decision to wander off for over a week without making any inroads into why Hellhound wasn't a good lynch target is not something to be regarded as pro town. Along with some other circumstantial evidence it's not hard to consider Lupo as potential scum for hanging off the wagon, or at the very least scummy in his actions.

Yes it is possible to see it that way, however I am not seeing it that way.

Thus I am having trouble seeing why Lupo is scum. He's in my leaning town category because he's being attacked for stuff I don't see which actually confirms him either way, by people I consider may be scum.

Tell me, why is NS scum?

Also, what do you mean Lupo is being attacked for stuff you don't see? Didn't you just begin with

"while the switch to NS was bad..."

? So you see things that are bad, but they don't indicate alignment? What does NS do that indicates his alignment?

Also, you think there are people you consider scum on Lupo's wagon. Have they had any association with NS or is there any information to gain from an NS lynch that would help confirm these people as scum? Is there more opportunity to go after these scummy players if NS flips?

Probably not much either actually, however he has continued to not post useful content (and although he said his own town meta is lurky mclurkson), I don't trust selfmeta and am therefore going by what I believe would be done by scum here.

and his comment with putting Lupo onto L-1, does not sit well with me at all.

That's L-1. Any scum on my wagon, feel free to jump over here and hammer.

As a rule, the town should always, ALWAYS want more information. It's really sad that I should have to explain that.

Information exists everywhere, while we might not be able to get association on people off NS straight away, him flipping scum would still help us on later days. We just have to dig deeper for the information required.

[killerjester]

Who are the scum on the Lupo wagon, aside from NS?

[Melmond]

The past few posts really strengthened my thoughts of NS being scum. Especially KK's 520 and the way NS's 498 is worded.
I was having some doubts, but I really think NS is scum now.

[Idiotking]

Do you want one?

One would be nice, yes.