Micro 45 - Artemis Fowl Game Over

[Mehdi2277]

VOTE: ovyo

I've yet to play with you.

[Mehdi2277]

Does confirmation time really make any difference?

[Mehdi2277]

You could expand yourself if you want to push anything if you're being serious.

[Mehdi2277]

Yes pointing at a post and saying it's scummy is one thing. It's another to explain the wrong. Can't hurt to give a short reason why so why? And to show even more comprehension any comment on the other half of the game after that?

Nextly Pro I'm not sure how moving quickly out of rvs is a bad thing. That's what I saw from post 8.

[Mehdi2277]

Nextly Pro I'm not sure how moving quickly out of rvs is a bad thing. That's what I saw from post 8.

Change pro to shos and I can say the same thing to you shos.

[Mehdi2277]

The real point I'm aiming is that quick to move isn't bad at rvs. It's trying to move the game out of rvs and get some serious discussion on things quickly (like now) without 5 or 6 randomish votes. That's the motivation I perceived and starting off with something small to get out of rvs is better then staying in it. If he's completely serious on the reads and wants to tunnel with them forever well that's a different story.

Nextly he did call attention to himself. By doing one of the first attacks in the game he definitely had attention come to him so him not wanting it I disagree with.

[Mehdi2277]

@Kmd, I don't really see your reason for swapping to shos from me if you suspect both of us.

@Pro, logic is lovely, but you really over complicating some things. You're making a mountain out of a molehill from a small comment. Beyond that in your first paragraph in 53 your pretty saying the vote at first was to generate discussion which makes you sound hypocritical when you attacked kmd for what at the time looked to also be a way to make discussion.

@Absta, I agree with kmd and shos that sham's post look town to me. So add me to the choir of people who want to know why you think he's scum (and why you think he's more likely scum then shos).

[Mehdi2277]

So the vote had nothing to do with absta asking you on it?

[Mehdi2277]

@Pro, logic is lovely, but you really over complicating some things. You're making a mountain out of a molehill from a small comment. Beyond that in your first paragraph in 53 your pretty saying the vote at first was to generate discussion which makes you sound hypocritical when you attacked kmd for what at the time looked to also be a way to make discussion.

Over complicating in what way?

If I were ever to have said that I wish to stifle all discussion and then make a post about wanting to contribute to discussion,

that

would be hypocritical. Not once however have I made mention that I wanted to stifle discussion. So because you seem to have missed my reason for voting kmd, I will reiterate.

I believe that he may be scum because right out of the gate, he already has scum partners outlined, before we had even had a chance to get to know everyone. Therefore, I placed my argument. It was in no way attacking him for wanting to contribute to discussion. My attack on him was because of the way he labeled-seriously you and shos as scum.

Over complicating as in making two paragraphs on "I don't care".

I said at the time. You said "My comment about his mistake was to generate discussion" towards voting shos for I'm assuming what was a minor read if it's main purpose was to get discussion. At the same time before that the way you reacted to kmd's early posts that pushed on me and shos was he was scummy for being "quick to lay blame" when it did a similar thing (kmd's quick allegations made discussion and moved rvs out quickly). It's fine for you to vote someone for something minor for discussion purposes, but it isn't fine for kmd to do that (while he might believe the reads now I still don't think it's a good assumption to say that his first fos was a major scum read when it based on three or so posts).

[Mehdi2277]

Vote, push. Main thing is you fosed shos to make discussion.

And other main thing is I said at the time. Before he stated the reads were serious multiple times you'd already fosed him for being quick to lay blame when it didn't come across like that to me.

[Mehdi2277]

Yes to everyone needs to post. Kmd I think is town mainly for being flexible with his reads and actually answering things. Sham is just tonally town to me with how he prods in a lot with people. Pro is more null overall (one hand he's playing very logical for someone new which I find town even if a part of his argument I still think is hypocritical). Absta has done nothing that's really helped. Fos'd without explanation, switched who he was pushing just really randomly (he'd made comment on shos as scummy shortly before that). The big problem though is he chose to switch to sham, which honestly lacks scum motivation. Pushing a person that's been suspected 0 and people think is town doesn't really help as scum. Useless, but as of now town. Shos null on as well.

[Mehdi2277]

Kmd want to explain your town read on pro? He's currently null for me, so hearing more there would be nice.

[Mehdi2277]

All robo said is that town players exist, which I don't see how that's strange.

Gnr, what's wrong with the shos wagon?

[Mehdi2277]

Why shos? Just supporting the wagon without ever explaining why is bad. And saying absta isn't scum hunting when an fos is basically that is fairly false as well.

[Mehdi2277]

Pester a player I lack a read on is working fine right now. You can still answer the question. Why do you suspect shos?

[Mehdi2277]

If you want short scum meta of him micro 18 works. If I had to compare it to here I'd say his scum game felt like he was pushing harder and just tending to do more serious tonal posts. I've never actually played with him and I don't really know his town meta.

[Mehdi2277]

Is meta ok to use if it makes someone look scummier then? Or is it only bad when it's a defense?

[Mehdi2277]

The difference being now I still don't see shos as scum (he lays as null and should appear soon). Your entire thing is mainly minor nitpicking. One of the original reasons he was fosed was me being with him as scum (which doesn't work if you think I'm town). Later well reads develop with time.

[Mehdi2277]

I'm getting a town read on robo (I don't see being pushy as a scum tell) although I think he's aiming at the wrong people. I do like meta and shos's play this game isn't as serious as he is as scum from a recent game. Pro just seems inexperienced. While the don't lynch early thing just fits his overly logical play.

I honestly think at least one scum is within the useless pool of mala/gnr (prefer gnr since mala's predecessor completely flaked plus mala's post while weak just reminds me of her play in an open game I very recently finished with her).

UNVOTE: ovyo VOTE: Gnr

[Mehdi2277]

Pro context is great. He suspects you a lot. He suspects someone else more. He's saying you could be town to focus on the bigger scum read. Tell me the problem?

[Mehdi2277]

Here's the game I was in with mala. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=23124 Her first post just reminded me of the weak dream thing that I've only seen heard her use as town (although it becomes null now it's stated, but that's why I have her a bit more town then gnr).

Pro, still think while he needs to focus at other people and stop making semantics wars is likely town. Shos is gradually becoming more scummy although considering I expect one lurker to flip scum I do want more of a lurker lynch (well at least get them to talk).

[Mehdi2277]

Pro I'll be blunt. Robo is a pretty unviable lynch (I think he's town and until otherwise I'll keep on defending him and other then shos no one really agrees with your specific argument on him).

And sarcasm is a complete personality thing (alignment =/= personality). A player isn't meant to be pure logic. It'd make the game a lot more boring. He's not using it to hide. He's responding to you repeatedly.

[Mehdi2277]

First paragraph, well scummy players should die. And it's not a poor player thing since shos has played fine in other games.

Second paragraph, innocent til guilty is both the legal system and it actually makes things such as PoE and relations a lot easier to look at when you're willing to have town reads.

Three, your going to need to debate something that isn't semantics or a stretched case to possibly convince me (and likely anyone else).

[Mehdi2277]

A pro/robo team is one of the least likely teams there is (I doubt they'd fake this argument this well).

Pro yes scummy town can die (although all reads are from different perspectives). Until they die I won't know whether they're town or scum so this argument if they're town that I lead on is just dumb,

And I explained gnr already. It's PoE since I think most of the active people are town this game.

[Mehdi2277]

I explained that too. Slight town vibes from mala based on her first post and resemblance it had to her play in a game I recently finished with her.

Reading my posts again might help you.

[Mehdi2277]

Hey you're using sarcasm. You must be scum. You are hiding something you evil person you.

Now can you see why the whole robo used sarcasm argument is really dumb (and then a lot of pointless semantics). My reads may not be long cases, but they explain the main point generally.

[Mehdi2277]

Robo what days would a lurker lynch be viable? Since unless gnr and mala start talking they need death or pressure. I can understand shos, I just also want them to be looked at more.

[Mehdi2277]

Let's see in four posts (beyond lurking) he voted shos then took off his vote for a weak reason when shos was being pressured (didn't want a lynch happening early which is somewhat forced and just is a strange way to interact with shos since when he removed the vote it was still likely shos wouldn't have been lynched and just pressured more which pressure is good). That's also basically all he did.

[Mehdi2277]

Is his association with shos null to you robo?

[Mehdi2277]

Want to actually give some links to that?

And robo can you answer my question (I think it's in my previous post).

[Mehdi2277]

His first three posts. Voting who's then unvoting after shos is voted some more.

[Mehdi2277]

What did I say that's confusing. He invited shos when he lacked a town lean on him. I don't see why a townie would hate for someone he thinks is null to be pressured.

[Mehdi2277]

I was talking about gnr.

[Mehdi2277]

My main desire for gnr>shos is shos has posted. A lurker is harder to lynch (although I do think that bit of what he's posted is scummy too) so doing day 1 is best. Currently my scum team guess is gnr/shos (mala's defense for gnr doesn't help her, but of those two pairs I see gnr/shos more easily).

[Mehdi2277]

Does chainsawing sound better? You attacked absta for what you call a bad attack on gnr.

[Mehdi2277]

When you're voting that person for it then it stops just being a small little comment.

[Mehdi2277]

VOTE: shos

Gnr isn't as viable to be lynched by the looks of it even though no one trusts him. Don't really think absta is scum, but I can agree with at least 1 scum in {mala, Gnr}.

And that places shos at L-1.

[Mehdi2277]

No one besides me and you truly loves a gnr lynch first. I'll vote the larger wagon now. I've already said my reasons for why a gnr lynch is good.

Gnr can be with shos and mala just fine. Shos can be with both a bit less fine.

[Mehdi2277]

If you need a reason to lynch lurkers more precinct mafia micro 27 works. Game just ended with both scum as lurkers. Micro 11 had both scum try to lurk as well. And gnr lurked to victory with about 5/6 posts all game and won (didn't even have to vote in lylo).

[Mehdi2277]

The gnr lurked to victory refers to micro 27 (his most recently finished scum game).

[Mehdi2277]

He definitely needs rope by the time day 2 is over and is the only person I'll vote then (aside from guilty reports of some kind or some actual scum slip).

[Mehdi2277]

For the shos vote or the gnr needs rope thing?

I still don't see sham scum at all though (best I can give is the shos vote, but that relies on a town shos flip and even then his other posts look fine to me).

[Mehdi2277]

Yup, but overall shos is still one of the most scummy players based quite a bit on PoE. I also like the other people found on this wagon.

[Mehdi2277]

alright, I'm starting to reread, will probably start from the very start of the thread. I see post 244, and I really need to ask, how the hell am I the most scummy player in a game in which I LITERALLY almost didn't post This wagon is super scumdriven, I'll bet there's at least 1 scum in, perhaps even 2. Anyway - I'll get to that with my reread. It'll probably take some hour or so so don't quickhammer in that while~

PoE is a great tool. And what you have posted is generally disliked. Painting the wagon as scum to discredit doesn't really help.

[Mehdi2277]

If you have a single town read PoE can start to appear. If you have more then especially in a small game it can really help. Don't want to lynch sham, kmd, robo, pro, or you. That leaves gnr, shos, and mala.

[Mehdi2277]

wtf?...mehdi's and prohawk's join date are exactly the same day???

Quick note. Me and pro joined a month apart.

I'll comment more once you're done reading although right now you're reads need adjustment (robo and absta reads both are likely wrong especially robo).

[Mehdi2277]

Complaining about me using PoE is just getting annoying. I've done it in most of my games as town (micro 27, newbie 1268, micro 3, and micro 11). I've used it on day 1 in three or all of those games (not sure if I used it day 1 in micro 27). I prefer to townhunt vs scumhunt.

[Mehdi2277]

I've also used it as scum in I think all of my scum games. It's just null and shows how I like to play.

[Mehdi2277]

Shos your town reads is basically anyone who shows hesitation lynching you and vice versa. I was town for defending you and robo is now a bit more town for defending you.

And mala has posted several times (maybe not a whole lot, but still enough I'd think you could have some type of read on her).

P-edit: I've been in 3. One of them I was converted to cult near endgame.

[Mehdi2277]

So I should not care about how viable one lynch is when I'm voting? I stayed on gnr for a while and the reason why I switched is when he became unlikely to be lynched. So yes if he becomes likely to be lynched I'll switch back. If you want to call that not caring, well I disagree.

And you haven't responded at all to the PoE is evil thing.

[Mehdi2277]

UNVOTE: shosVOTE: Gnr That lands gnr at L-1.

Shos I specifically said I've used PoE as town most of my games day 1 (and as scum and off site in night 0 sometimes). Plus I did explain why gnr should be lynched and helped start the wagon on him (I think I was the second vote though).

[Mehdi2277]

Its stupid.

I don't feel like policy lynching in a 7man game when shos is clearly scummier.

Seriously, I don't care if we lynch him later on in the game but we gain NOTHING from lynching him Day One.

Except this is a 9man game. We've already shown he lurks as scum. I still don't agree that the way he acted towards shos is null. And look at how mala/shos have talked about him. Shos says he's posted nothin, doesn't want him to be lynched, and says his first post of content is correct.

[Mehdi2277]

So what exactly is the scum motivation in 310? Or in most of his play? I'm not going to touch an absta lynch. Gnr's thing I've repeated (I could debate how day 1 policy lynches aren't bad as well, but that's pure theory). Shos is at L-2 by the looks of it, but I'd hammer him fine.

[Mehdi2277]

I'm meh on the claim. For a reasonably important LEP character to be vanilla like that feels a bit off. The flavor's fine, but considering there is no vanilla pm in the first post I'd assume all scum have fake claims.

I know you can't quote but I want you to vaguely describe just the tone/point of view of the flavor. There's one thing in it that whether it's right or not is affected.

[Mehdi2277]

Since that flavor doesn't match the books. Butler never killed a single person in the 1st book. He knocked some people out, but killing he never did.

[Mehdi2277]

Hammer intent on shos. Mostly is there anything anyone wants to say before I end the day with a hammer?

[Mehdi2277]

VOTE: Shos A day's enough time for anyone to ask for me to wait, so that's the hammer.

Anyways I don't think the role contradicts his as much as you're pushing. I'm curious who's read the books since the flavor can fit fine except for his screw up on kill vs take out (mostly depends on whether or not pro was in LEP one specifically vs LEP in general which LEP one is a much smaller group of characters). Pro is town though just for the cc since there's a lack of need to do it as scum like that.

[Mehdi2277]

Bah. Well, good luck town.

[Mehdi2277]

missed it lol

urm @prohawk - usually, unless mentioned otherwise, flavor has no bearin gon the game. So the fact taht you were from LEP was not a reason to lynch me D1 ><

It's one thing to have strange flavor, but to have literally contradicting flavor is where the problem arose (although it was mainly lack of understanding the part of butler taking you all out).