Open 455 - Tit for Tat - OVER

[A_Potato]

Would like a complete reads list from MoI.

[Nekoko]

I didn't make anything up, so stop making stuff up yourself.

If you posted your reasons alongside your vote, I wouldn't suspect you making stuff up. It's the same reason why I didn't like Klick's vote for Cheery Dog.

So you think his vote is better on the largest bandwagon that which you have blatantly wagon'd on to yourself with little to no reasoning or input that contains reasoning in your own words? And you're saying my reasoning is horrible without saying why or disproving anything that I have said? My my, you must be a genius.

First of all, I vote for the most suspicious player in any of my games. Here is the summary of the views I had in my first post...

Cheery Dog - I said there was nothing wrong with his vote
Disturbed_One - scummy for the quick bandwagon and the lack of conviction for his vote for unvoting when he's under pressure
HerrRudi - suspicious because did not comment on Klick's self vote and still voted randomly
Klick - town, I asked why he voted Cheery Dog
numberQ - suspicious because did not comment on Klick's self vote and still voted randomly
Venmar - suspicious because did not comment on Klick's self vote and still voted randomly

People I did not comment on because I don't see anything wrong with them:
A_Potato
combinatorialEnigma
Lord Mhork
Shamrock
And guille2015 who has yet to post

You see the pattern? I became suspicious with people who never comment on Klick's self-vote and Disturbed_One's bandwagonning.
From my point of view, my vote would be better with Disturbed_One as it my suspicion for him is greather than what HerrRudi, numberQ
and you did so how can I refute your claim that I'm suspicious because I just came to play
in page 4 and I voted Disturbed_One who's incidentally the top wagon.

Second, Klick voted Cheery Dog without even stating his reason. Of course since I believe Disturbed_One is the most suspicious, I wouldn't like that.
Third, I didn't contradict myself with Klick. I already said that in my last post. I still think he's town

[Nekoko]

Nekoko wrote: Congrats for conveniently choosing another target.

Elaborate exactly what you mean by this.

1) Klick self-voted so Cheery Dog voted him. Disturbed_One quickly voted alongside Cheery Dog.
2) Disturbed_One unvoted and changed his target to Venrob who still randomly voted as if nothing yet happened.
(This what made Disturbed_One the most suspicious as if he defended his action I would think differently.
It's like he just wants to appease the crowd)
3) Disturbed_One voted combinatorialEnigma. If you read his post in Post #100,
it seems that if HerrRudi was did not vote combinatorialEnigma, he wouldn't ISO and then eventually vote him.
4) Disturbed_One voted for me. The way I see it, he just found an ally in voting one of the people who voted him.

[Nekoko]

Okay I just lost my townread on Nekoko due to that OMGUS at Venmar, but she's not a scumread yet.

OMGUS wat???
My vote is still on Disturbed_One

[A_Potato]

You only seemed to show suspicion on Venmar right after he attacked you.

[Nekoko]

You only seemed to show suspicion on Venmar right after he attacked you.

1) I said in my first post that his first post was suspicious because I did not comment on Klick's self vote and still voted randomly
2) In Post #133, I said that he is wrong and reiterated what I said in my first post.
3) If you would ask if my suspicion for him grew, honestly a bit because I have a
tendency to suspect those who attack me for the wrong reasons.

[A_Potato]

Post #133 is exactly why it's OMGUS.

[Cheery Dog]

Pinpointed my weird vibe from Cheery.

His posts 102 and 105 were extremely vague, and amounted to "I think this person is this alignment because." Which is a fairly scummy thing to do, saying you're suspicious of people but not giving any real reasons so as to not accidentally contradict yourself later.

That's my normal gameplay, it's there because I haven't learnt to get rid of my paranoia about possibility being wrong.
Based on my scumplay offsite (though they have crap games and easy to fool players), I'm actually a lot more definite about my reads when I'm scum.

[Klick]

I'll vote Nekoko when I catch up on this game.

[Cheery Dog]

I'll vote Nekoko when I catch up on this game.

Why not do it now?

[MagnaofIllusion]

In going over the thread one more time last Night I notice that no-one has discussed proper claiming procedures for Town. So here is what you should be doing if you are Town …

1. If you are Town and a VT never, EVER claim anything but VT. If you get to the point of L-1 where you need to claim fake-claiming to survive is the worst possible play as it will quite likely result in a mislynch and death of a Town Power-role.
2. If you are a non-Vig Town Power-role you should ALWAYS counter-claim scum. The job of Town Power-Roles is to catch scum. By forcing a 1 v 1 with fake-claiming Scum you guarantee that 1 scum is killed (either that day or the next worst case).
3. If you are the Town Vig never counter-claim a scum fake-claiming Vig … just shoot them. The only exception to this is if scum have managed to activate their Jailkeeper in which case you have to use judgement as to whether it is best to get the lynch immediately versus the odds that the scum Fake-claiming is the Jailkeeper (who generally can’t target themselves although the role PMs don’t explicitly close that possibility).

Any questions about these simple rules? I hope not but don’t be afraid to voice them if you are.

MOD – May Jailkeepers self-target in this game and protect themselves from Nightkill?

--

@LordM

– given your thoughts on HerrR’s “idling his vote” in Post 170 what do you think about Distrubed?

--

I followed KKB's Large Normal game that he recently modded. Kondi fake claimed dayvig page one so the other dayvig would claim and then there was two. Pretty entertaining game and a ballsy move.

I meant to follow-up on this …. so your grand knowledge of kondi meta is a single game? What conclusions are you drawing from his self-vote again?

Actually MoI makes a good point with NumberQ.

VOTE: NumberQ

Generic town reads, generic awkward feeling from CD, generic vote on the most popular target, etc.

All of those features you agree are scummy existed before I replaced in? Why did it take me explicitly pointing them out for you to vote?

Disturbed is someone I will hesitantly be up for lynching. Something about him is manufactured but I have a gut town on him so I'm hesitant to go against that.

Explain how you get a gut-Town read on him when the one thing that you say effectively about him (that his posts seem manufactured) would give a gut-scum read IMO.

--

@MoI: You shouldn't. He was making an assumption based on absolutely nothing.

Well we agree then. That said – self-voting is still pretty Anti-Town in general and I’m not sure why all the “Voting someone for self-voting is obv-scum” sentiment came from. Logically it is something I certainly can see an inexperienced Town player (inexperience Scum also, but that simply means it is a Null tell) making.

I'll vote Nekoko when I catch up on this game.

Why exactly would you say you will be voting her if you aren’t caught up? Because you didn’t vote her before …. so ....

--

@ MagnaofIllusion:

What do you think about Nekoko?

Don’t like her. The initial “here’s a PBP that basically allows me to wagon the leading vote getter” struck me as scummy at a gut level.

--

Your town reads are people who agree with you while your scum reads are people who disagree.

Why are you presenting this as a scum-tell when it is basic human psychology? Distrubed-Town who is being wagonned very early should easily think those who correctly read him as Town are likely Town and those who hold opinions opposite of his are more likely to be scum since they do not have the same mindset as he does (and Town-him knows his own alignment)?

Pinpointed my weird vibe from Cheery.

His posts 102 and 105 were extremely vague, and amounted to "I think this person is this alignment because." Which is a fairly scummy thing to do, saying you're suspicious of people but not giving any real reasons so as to not accidentally contradict yourself later.

@EVERYONE

– I’d like you to consider the above and then read Post 132 and weigh in on how that post synchs with this one.

--

People sheep me because I am right

Really? Because I’ve never seen either

A. People sheep you, or
B. You be dead-solid correct on scum-reads

in any game we have in common ...

I think you misunderstood here, I'm not calling you out on making sure people know your reads, but you seem to want to know what people's reads are on your scumreads.

Um, what? You are calling out LordM for that? That’s scum-hunting 101 and I have issues with you claiming it is scummy.

Would like a complete reads list from MoI.

Good to know. Maybe if you behave nicely the rest of the year Santa will bring it for you.

Yes, this is sarcasm.

--

1) Klick self-voted so Cheery Dog voted him. Disturbed_One quickly voted alongside Cheery Dog.
2) Disturbed_One unvoted and changed his target to Venrob who still randomly voted as if nothing yet happened.
(This what made Disturbed_One the most suspicious as if he defended his action I would think differently.
It's like he just wants to appease the crowd)
3) Disturbed_One voted combinatorialEnigma. If you read his post in Post #100,
it seems that if HerrRudi was did not vote combinatorialEnigma, he wouldn't ISO and then eventually vote him.
4) Disturbed_One voted for me. The way I see it, he just found an ally in voting one of the people who voted him.

1. Frankly this is bad. Your Post 75 says that Cherry Dog is Town for helping to end RVS at post 9 yet Distrubed is scum for also voting Klick two posts later. It looks like you are arbitrarily splitting hairs to justify your vote on Distrubed over Cherry (which is opportunistic since he was the leading vote-getter)>
2. Also in 75 you explicitly say you understand he claimed to be inexperienced. This is much more likely to come from a New player who thought something was scummy and voted on it and subsequently backed off when multiple other players attacked him for it. So using this as a scum-tell I find suspect.
3. So my question to you is – what is your HerrR read right now?
4. Voting you isn’t a scum-tell. And it contradicts what you said in point 3 in Post 180 – you say you suspect people for voting you for the wrong reasons. Why couldn’t Distrubed be Town who thought your vote on him was for the wrong reasons and eventually decided to vote you?

[Klick]

@MoI: I'm in a situation where I can't make a big post, but I think we should take role claims and CCs circumstantially.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: I'm in a situation where I can't make a big post, but I think we should take role claims and CCs circumstantially.

Well when you get time make your case. Because there is no room for disagreement. I'm not dealing with "Teehee, I fake-claimed as VT because I wanted to survive" crap, among other things. That doesn't belong outside of Road to Rome.

[Klick]

No, the fakeclaiming is not going to happen. I'm talkin about what PRs do when scum fakeclaims them, etc.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, the fakeclaiming is not going to happen. I'm talkin about what PRs do when scum fakeclaims them, etc.

Well you still need to make your case. Because rules 2 and 3 are the optimal Pro-Town play in an open set-up.

[Klick]

Will do, but I can't right now.

[Messiah]

Vote Count 1.6

With twelve alive it will take seven to lynch.

L-3

Disturbed_One

- Nekoko, numberQ, Cheery Dog, guille2015

L-5

Nekoko

- Venmar, Disturbed_One

L-5

numberQ

- MagnaofIllusion, HerrRudi

L-6

HerrRudi

- Klick

L-6

A_Potato

- Lord Mhork

L-6

Lord Mhork

- A_Potato

MagnaofIllusion

-

Venmar

-

Cheery Dog

-

Klick

-

guille2015

-

Shamrock

-

Not voting: Shamrock

MOD – May Jailkeepers self-target in this game and protect themselves from Nightkill?

No.

Deadline in (expired on 2012-10-28 21:30:00).

[Disturbed_One]

Your only original idea is your OMGUS about me "tunneling" you with 3 posts. Anything that hasn't been explicitly said by other people is vague as hell. Your town reads are people who agree with you while your scum reads are people who disagree. Literally one of your town-tells is "was in arguments". Well, guess what buddy, this is an argument right here.

And how is Nekoko pointing fingers scummier than me tunneling (which is the implication since you voted Nekoko over me)? If someone's pointing fingers... well... it's mafia, of course they're pointing fingers. If you're convinced I'm tunneling, then what exactly is less scummy about that? The way I see it, out of me and Nekoko, only one of us was voting for you, and only one of us was seen as scummy by other people at the time. You are OMGUSy and sheepy as hell.
--
Pinpointed my weird vibe from Cheery.

His posts 102 and 105 were extremely vague, and amounted to "I think this person is this alignment because." Which is a fairly scummy thing to do, saying you're suspicious of people but not giving any real reasons so as to not accidentally contradict yourself later.

Again with the originality? Why is this such a big deal? Is recycling a point really such a bad thing? If I feel a point is good, does using it again make it any less potent? I think not. Frankly, I've had it up to here with this bullsmurf about how I can't use other people's points or something. That is beyond ridiculous. If I agree with a case, it is my right to convey my agreement.

Perhaps "tunneling" is too strong or an incorrect word choice, but it does not change the fact that - at the my time of vote - you had focused almost explicitly on me. This suggests a lack of scum-hunting on your part.

I find players who have a strong opinion about something and who get in arguments with other players early on, rather than merely sheep votes are typically town. (There is a possibility they could be really strong scum players, but hey, these are my reads and only reflect my highly personal opinion). I'm talking about people who are actively contributing to the discussion and searching for tells on players. Which is not something you are doing.

Nekoko is scum because of her attempts to divert attention by pointing blame in an absurdly high number of directions. She also is guilty of the same crime you are, which is to focus her vote entirely on me. Really, you're pretty similar the both of you. But I do think that Nekoko is definitely scum. If I'm still alive and we lynch her today, I would then proceed to focus on you. Unfortunately, I can only vote for one person at a time, so unless that changes I need to vote for who I believe is more likely to be scum.

I won't accept being called "sheepy". There are several players in this game with votes on them, the sad fact is that I could vote for almost anyone and they would already have a vote or two placed on them. Sheeping is a part of the game. If no one sheeped, we'd never get anyone lynched.

[Disturbed_One]

Also, getting a town vibe from Klick for discussing fakeclaim procedures.

[Cheery Dog]

Also, getting a town vibe from Klick for discussing fakeclaim procedures.

also MoI?
or do you still have your read of CE overruling it?

[Disturbed_One]

Also, getting a town vibe from Klick for discussing fakeclaim procedures.

also MoI?
or do you still have your read of CE overruling it?

Post #185 is glorious and I have a hard time believing scum could pull that off. Sure, MoI can also be town.

[Klick]

Note that via meta, MoI likely could pull that off.

[Disturbed_One]

Note that via meta, MoI likely could pull that off.

I haven't actually read MoI's meta. In fact, I haven't really read anyone's meta because making cases based on meta really isn't my style, honestly.

It sounds like you think we can't clear MoI based off of #185. Is that true?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, getting a town vibe from Klick for discussing fakeclaim procedures.

Post #185 is glorious and I have a hard time believing scum could pull that off. Sure, MoI can also be town.

Giving anyone Town cred for a discussion of what is essentially Good Play as opposed to actually related to hunting scum is a bad, bad idea. Scum can easily purpose plans or provide information that are Pro-Town but don’t aid in actually finding scum directly.

So getting a Town read on me for 185 if it is predicated on my 3 Points regarding claims is stupid. If it is based on the rest of the post's actual scum-hunting that's valid.

[A_Potato]

MoI if we're ever going to work together in this game you're going to need to stop being a self-righteous prick. Last game I played with you was terrible, this game will be better.