Marketplace Mafia II - Game Over

[Voidedmafia]

Do NOT shoot Tammy PLEASE

Please shoot Seanald. Or VM as a compromise.

Wut. I like the case on Seanald and all, but where did that come from?

we'll point it all out in a few minutes but Post 109 is a logical fallacy in it's own.

Feels more like she's trying to meta BB on this.

Also I was in the entirety of the last game, I just replaced out and into it with a hydra with Slaxx.

I'll guess this is Reg and ask, "Really? Don't remember that..."

Tammy, just to be very clear, you aren't getting lynched today. But maybe what would help you get out of this bind would be to focus less on being SnarkyMcSnarkSnark and more on scumhunting???

But I like snarky tammy... (okay, I'm nearing my off-topic quota for this day).

TOWN (Strongest to Weakest):

Voided's

claimage and action of bidding $15 on the night-kill alongside with his reasoning behind it is incredibly town-motivated and genuine. I don't see scum just decided on putting $15 which is such a meager amount on night-kill which is massively important to them and I don't see him lying about something such as this. His reaction towards Mollas miller claim and continuation of it in Post 83 is very genuine and was pretty much my thoughts exactly when I read Mollas post there.

Okay, I get how this could make me a strong townread. How does this make me conf-town or anywhere near it?

Wait really quickly BBmolla does your kill end day phase?

Asking.

...I'm continually concerned by this, and you're not helping.

Need to sleep, have a headache that isn't going away, don't want to deal with Tammy vs. GB right now. I stand by my townreads on them, though (and if I didn't say either of them were town, I do now).

[Gentlemen Bastards]

So you're calling me scum, then progressing to say my vote is 'bad'. You continue to make zero sense whatsoever.

Did I think that Matt thought he had a scum read he would let go and push for all it's worth? Absolutely. Was I irritate that someone was acting like they could read me whe they couldn't? Absolutely. Was i also at the same time confident thay the people who knew how to read me would? Absolutley. Do I also have faith in my ability, as town, to prove myself as town? Absolutely. There is o me intentionally subverting my town meta. I don't flip out early day one most days. You can reference the start of mafia behind the maiden to see that's actually true. I didn't start acting like a lunatic until the wagon actually looked like it we going to go through. But, thanks a lot for acting like I can't actually work on my playstyle and attempt to remove some of the more annoying and anti-town aspects.

It's not exactly that you 'didn't act like a lunatic' that makes you scum at all, it's differently entirely. It's the fact that I cannot follow anything you're doing, you're reaction towards MattP was de-crediting him and insulting him and sure if you're annoyed that he thinks he can read you that's fair enough but the extent that you went to stating to BB that you're the lynch today and he has a free day because of you points you legitimately believing that you're going to get lynched which contradicts with you stating you knew you weren't going to get lynched from that wagon.

As far as regfork being an insult and an ate, you couldn't be farther from the truth. It was just a bit of a joke from when faraday called you that in GvE when you called him scum. And since when would ate be a scum tell from me anyway?

Regfork was an insult that Mina spammed at me inside a westeroes game graveyard where I mslynched twice(?) in a row. And AtE is a scum-tell as you can easily change the read by, you know, scumhunting, something you haven't done at all yet. If you legitimately think I can read you correctly (And I think I've read you right every game we've played albeit it was a weak read in the Scummies game) then you'd be confident in changing my mind by acting naturally, not by insulting me.

You actually lied within your post because I called BB town and you reference it. My read on BB flows one hundred percent logical. In both of the games in which he was scum and I was town, he gave me strong town reads without question. But he sometimes calls me scum when he's town to get a read on me. So where's your logical fallacy. I'm soaking from experience absolutely 100%.

Will give you that you have stated a read on Molla. The reasoning behind the read isn't the logical fallacy. The logical fallacy is what is followed after it, the "You used to be able to read me!" if he could read you in the past then him instantly reading you correctly wouldn't make him scum like you'd said it would have in your post.

What are you talking about with GI and Sala? He didn't even mention Sala? Are you now saying I'm it allowed to ask someone a question to get a read on them? Because seriously...no seriously? As far as the Matt read...I haven't decided yet. Are you serious that I was supposed to make grand declarations? I love how you pull out my meta, but fail to even acknowledge that I'm a) not the most transparent player in the world and b) often take my time with things.

In Post 48 GreyICE votes Sala stating it's not random and it's a serious vote, in Post 59 you ask Sala the question, the question is an incredibly useless one that doesn't lead to any real information being gained but his answer can be construed to look like a scum-tell so the question there comes across as setting up an opportunity to join the alternate wagon/lynch that might go through during the day. And no, I don't expect 'grand declarations' but I expect a thought-process that shows me that you're actually thinking about reads in some sort of depth or that you're scumhunting, I haven't seen that at all. And A) is probably true but at the same time Empire and I were talking about you being a free-town-read if you were town this game and we're not seeing anything that points to it being the case at all and B) is something that I'd probably argue isn't true but I'd have to re-look at your meta.

PEdit: Voided, I was in a hydra called odysess? Or something, we were inside a neighbourhood QT together. And it doesn't make you conf but a strong read.

[BBmolla]

...I'm continually concerned by this, and you're not helping.

Yo ass hole, I'm telling the truth.

[Tammy]

@regfan

1. And how is me not making sense when I feel like im being unfairly given a scum read incompatible with me at all?

2. I was joking about me being the lynch today. Im pretty sure I put an emoticon there. Yeah, I reacted to Matt, he has an ego and has faith in his reads. Ask him, doubt he's going to deny it. I absolutely expected him to keep pushing me, and no I didn't expect he knew how to read me, which is why I said to wait for people who did. Do you actually think scum me would have acted that confident that there were people who knew how to read me that we're playing? You are one of the people I know can read me. There's no way scum me would just know youd read me as town. I mean my scum game has gotten a little better but not that much better.

3. I 100% was not insulting you with regfork. In GvE, you called faraday scum and he said something along the lines of regfork has spoken put out your torch. I'm not quite sure why I remembered that when you called me scum, but that was what I was referencing, I have no clue about the Mina reference. Why would I insult you for mislynching, especially if is the game I can now think about I was responsible for a lot of mislynches myself. But no don't use AtE against me reg...just don't.

4. I don't understand why you're saddling me with your conclusions. BB used to be able to read me as town really easily. He didn't used to need reaction tests to read me, but lately he has. I didn't mean that just because he gives me a town read it makes hi scum. But when he is scum he doesn't question me at all. Look at GvE...look at the CoK game on westeros. Every time he's questioned me like tis he's been town. It doesn't mean that if he doesn't he's scum, it just means if he does he's more likely town.

5. I skipped over a bunch. I didn't see where GI posted about Sala, I saw a bu ch of talk about BB and got bored and posted. I havent gone back and Im catching up on games here since I was caught up with mafia at westeros this weekend. So what if you don't understand why I ask someone a question, I didn't know it had to be put through a committee. I think it was an extremely valid question as it sets the stage for how he's worried about being viewed by others. Like why does no one else see that? And why is it horrible that i want to know why someone is so worried about someone else's read on them on page two. and how come no one thinks it's weird he's refusing to answer?

Regfan, I should be an easy town read if youre actually reading me and are town. I'm actually really baffled at some of the stuff your throwing at me. No I'm not a really transparent player, nd of I actually joins game during rvs I might give a couple reads depending on how things go. You're likely to get maybe a few reads out of me day one as I'm not a strong day one player - maybe a bit of town reads early to mid day but that's it.

I'm just pretty confused by you right now.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

1/2. I've seen you be illogical before but even when I find you being emotional and illogical I've been able to follow your thought process to how and why you were reacting to things the way you were, here I can't. I really really can't. And ScumYou knowing that I can read you wouldn't have a choice but to hope for the best and think you can attempt to manipulate me into being off my game or alternatively push back onto me and you're doing both right now.

3. Faraday said it to troll Mina because she used that as an insult against me a lot. It's not a flattering nickname at all. Curious: What AtE are you saying I've 'used'.

4/5. Understanding most of your 4) now, still find it an awkward phrasing but not anywhere near as strong as I thought it was before. About 5) The question isn't really valid, the answer he's going to give is pretty much always going to be "Because I wanted to know his read on me" which isn't super alignment related but

is

something that can be construed as a scum-tell by saying "Oh feels so nervous because of asking question" when in truth it's really not a scum-tell at all but closer to a player-style-tell. The question has no meat to it and you're strong enough as town to know that much which is why it looks like setting up.

I've never seen you have zero or little reads as town early game, I re-looked at Behind The Maiden and you had thoughts and reads there. I'll go through a few more of your games again later but the other few I pulled up you replaced into making the RVS ect. discussion useless in them.

[Tammy]

1/2 I don't understand what you can't follow? My push on Matt, because I think that makes the most sense. And no no no, there's no way scum me tells Matt who's calling me scum (and who I know pushes hell when he has a scum read) to step aside for others who know how to read me. I don't act like that as scum. I don't have confidence that people are going to read me as town when I'm scum. I mean I guess you could say I'd say that, but would I really...about someone who has read me pretty accurately? I hate being scum, you don't think I'd have waited I the wings to figure out my best angle to make myself look townie..or at least try?

3. Didn't know it was an insult...actually thought it was a survivor reference be ause of the way I remember it being used. You accused me of using AtE. I don't think I did, but I get accused of it all the time. My "AtE" is what caused rofl to mislynch me at lylo in flavorless. It gets thrown at me a lot,a nd I don't know what people mean because I just say what I'm thinking.

5. That's bs reg and you know it. You know that sometimes questions early day one are to get reads on people. What about the way he might have answered it that could have sparked a conversation that could have helped me get a read? Why is he so worried about someone s read on him on page two and why are you filtering it for him? You have now essentially said he spdoesnt have to answer it and now I don't get to even try to get a read on him that way because you've interfered and called me scum, so now he especially doesn't have to answer. You have made a horrible erroneous led to my question and something about GI that I can't fathom is a natural progression for you as its a normal type question I ask early.

No really, i'd like for you to spell this out for me...what is wrong with asking why someone is worried about a certain persons read on them on page two? Why are you intercepting that and invalidating my question? Because I thik it s a pretty valid question to ask someone and you claiming that I'm going to set some up like that is super weak and is not even something I remember doing as scum. You're stretching hard to put motives on me before I've even had the conversation, which is super scummy.

You've never seen me have zero reads at early game? Are you serious. A) I almost never join during rvs because I hate it and I usually wait until page six or so so that I can evaluate the ridiculousness that goes on. 2) in mafia behind the maiden you will note, from what I remember I called spyrex town and tierce scum in the early game. The next day after the debacle of my wagon building I made a wall post in which I gave a few reads. 3) most of my games here are replacements because I hate day one, I get some town reads over time but I usually fuck up on scum reads and end up making a fooled myself at lynch time due to Sheeping or jumping off wagons. I wish mt day one reads were better, I'm not a day one player. 4) as I said earlier ill reread this thread tomorrow and I doth think I wouldn't have tried to give some reads today and Scumhunt these first few pages to look like a good old little townie as scum, you're nuts.

You don't need to do meta research on me reg...you're just reading me terribly. And this is not like the WoT game I don't have hours and hours to prove it to you...you're just wrong.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

So this game started while I was at work

VOTE: Tammi

[Tammy]

^^^ this is brilliant. If youre going to vote me for fuck all reasoning is it to much to ask that you spell my damn name right? I mean it's right there I the first post. For heaven's flipping sake it's in the post RIGHT ABOVE THE VOTE.

[Tammy]

And dammit. I promised myself id stop getting in unproductive wall wars with people, and here I'm doing it again. Sorry.

[Tammy]

Oh wow so ref...GI voted for sala you're right and said it wasn't rvs. Now I'd like you to explain a little something something for me. If I was oh.olseetingslaluptofollowgreyice, why didn't I jump on his question for explanation of grey ice's vote? I mean if I was trying to follow along, why didn't I pick up on that? Why did I ask a TOTALLY UNRELATED QUESTION? I'm going to need a serious answer on this. B

[Tammy]

You know regfan I can't believe you would take that as an insult from me. I just looked back, and the game you're referring to was one in which I derailed a scum lynch and forced a mislynch because I was so certain of my read. I'm pretty sure I was so certain of my read that I proclaimed that if people wouldn't agree to the lynch I wanted, I would make sure no lynch happened. It was supremely stupid of me to do that and you actually think I was insulting you?

Okay imma stop spamming the thread now. For future vote references my name is spelled with a "Y". Ktnkxbai

[Salamence20]

Confirm Vote: Tammy

BBMolla, you can have 20 bucks from me if you vig Seanald and it doesn't end day.

(Not really buying the miller vig thing)

Anyone notice how GI votes me seriously, then retracts two pages later, then asks the same question he called me scum for?

Fos: Ice

[D3f3nd3r]

I don't have the time to make a huge post about the past 7 pages, but I will say that

I did not win anything.

I think some of these items went for WAY too much.

[guille2015]

You guys don't sleep.

I've got a town read on Medhi, The Gentlemen and Void.

BMolla's claim is null. Bum role fits the theme.

Scum usually take town claims seriously. Even if they're utter obvious horseshit. The town don't lie bs gets stuck in their head.

I don't believe this bum horseshit, it's not a real role, but spb taking it seriously means he's probably scum and we can sort BB out later.

You are correct, mafia do usually take town claims seriously. But you are not taking into consideration that there are two mafia teams and that they don't know each other. Additionally, I find that there is a potential for a third party scum in this game just like the previous game. Still, this is a good point to keep an eye on.

I am tired and have to get some RL work done. Need Coffee. I was not able to concentrate reading the later half of the game. For what it's worth, the votes on Tammi makes sense. I got lost on seanald. I don't see the reason to vote for him. I'll take a good look at them when I am not pressured to get back to work.

[Tazaro]

Postings after my bed-time <_<
When in doubt, sheep. Sheep someone who looks good.
Who looks good? Tammy.

VOTE: Gentlemen Bastards

[Tazaro]

I don't have the time to make a huge post about the past 7 pages, but I will say that

I did not win anything.

I think some of these items went for WAY too much.

You're essentially claiming to be a vanilla townie
Don't do that

[Magua]

Vote Count 1.4

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

Tammy (4): Salamence20, Mehdi2277, Gentlemen Bastards, Elmo TeH AzN
Seanald (2): BBmolla, SlumberPartyBois
Gentlemen Bastards (2): Tammy, Tazaro
BBmolla (1): greygnarl
SlumberPartyBois (1): GreyICE

Not Voting (10): Guille2015, Voidedmafia, D3f3nd3r, Pitty, StefanB, Eidolon, PeregrineV, Phillammon, MagnaofIllusion, Seanald

Deadline is November 12th, at 11:00pm EST (site time).
Countdown to deadline:

(expired on 2012-11-12 22:00:00)

[GreyICE]

I don't have the time to make a huge post about the past 7 pages, but I will say that

I did not win anything.

I think some of these items went for WAY too much.

You're essentially claiming to be a vanilla townie
Don't do that

Actually VTs are hella powerful in this game due to the investment factor.

I mean yeah, no abilities for 3-4 days, but when it hits day 4, watch out!

We should have a few people just turbo investing (you DON'T need to say who you are).

Anyway, BBMolla's bum role doesn't seem too different from my previous "communist saboteur" role, and I'm not scared to say it. Shoot me with your imaginary gun, bro~

[Tazaro]

I didn't think of that investment-factor factor

[Tazaro]

Oh are you pointing out your voting me for voting gentleman bastards when we were out of rvs and talking srzbznz...see if you actually knew me, you would know I was half serious about my frustration. But since you haven't actually played any full games with me, you don't know that balance and role spec is something I'm supremely slow about and often get mixed up on, so whatever...carry on.

Oh that's scummy. :bows: caught me...

Pedit: oh the laundry list of contradictory items...as I said step aside there are people here who actually know how to read me :shrug:

Stop the self meta WTF?

VOTE: tammy

Mehdi this is the second time you've convinced me your town within 2 pages, you got talent mah boy you could really go places!

and side note, Matt's anger gives me a good sized boner.

And Sala still playing like Sala, which also means many of you will fall for the fallacy that he is too VI to be scum, dont listen to these inner voices of deceit.

For some reason, reading this gives me negative vibes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So we have 7 pages overnight … let’s see what the game brings us.

So BBMolla is trolling. Which he does as scum and Town. So in and of itself not useful at all regarding his alignment. I’ll certainly support his lynch the instant I think he’s cruising on playing Troll as opposed to helping find scum. Which he is already rapidly approaching.

I see a number of different opinions on what powers should be claiming (and some claims already). Investigation Immunity should absolutely be claimed ASAP. I’m really not going to support complicated Day-Plans to direct how things happen regarding Night abilities. The more complex the plan the more likely it is that Scum will be able to nullify any advantages given by the plan with their superior knowledge – call this the “Mordor effect” if you will.

--

Early Scum Reads

–

Mehdi

- I very much dislike the “Well we know there isn’t a Miller how does that affect votes” (which is not confirmed at all, BTW). It reads as someone testing the waters to see how support for a “BB lynch” will be supported.

GreyGn

– Post 31 is the classic “Scum asking the Mod information they know will not be answered to look Town” move.

Sean

– Post 73 where he nicely jumps on Tammy (developing into the early wagon) for self-meta. Self-meta, while useless, isn’t a Scum-tell.

Voided

– Post 82 entrance post has all sorts of things wrong with it … agreeing with a Bad Point made by Gentlemen, lots of “gee whiz mechanics” statements which have no alignment relevance and coattailing on Gentlemen.

Elmo

– Post 156. I don’t think I need any more explanation.

Guile

– His Town reads in Post 163 are either early scum reads or solidly Null for me. Signal that he's playing to a different Wincon than I am.

Given what Slumber put together on Page 5 regarding Sean is where I am starting …

VOTE: Sean

--

I think the most important thing for all of us to agree upon is that negative-utility items like Investigation Immunity, Extra Vote, Governor and such need to be claimed publicly and used as early of as possible, once the risk and threat of them are gone we're fine to go

whereas if scum win them and we don't know they have control of it lylo could be brought up a day

and cop could be rendered less effective.

Please support why you think the bolded is true.

Neither the Governor (since it cannot self-target) or the DoubleVote (is rendered useless with less than 10 players alive) can accelerate LYLO.

Voided's claimage and action of bidding $15 on the night-kill alongside with his reasoning behind it is incredibly town-motivated and genuine.

I stopped reading your Town reasoning on Voided at this. Frankly that’s so easy for scum to fake “Oh, I spent $15 on Nightkill” that the fact that you lead your Townread with that makes me suspect highly it is fabricated.



--

At GreyIce re Post 91 – yes. Mordor.

Scum control roleblocker means NK doesn't go off unless they want it to?

NK doesn't go off and RB is claimed at least we can sort things out with hangings.

Um, no … there is way too many missing elements to this ‘plan’ and you should know that. Are you scum Grey?

--

Fake claiming miller is retarded.

So is claiming the name of your Scum QT directly in thread for Teehees which leads to you getting Copped Guilty but it never stopped you before …

[GreyICE]

At GreyIce re Post 91 – yes. Mordor.

GreyICE wrote:
Scum control roleblocker means NK doesn't go off unless they want it to?

NK doesn't go off and RB is claimed at least we can sort things out with hangings.


Um, no … there is way too many missing elements to this ‘plan’ and you should know that. Are you scum Grey?

--

No. Controlling the auctions was pretty key to the town's play last game (even if they didn't win, it was due to an investigation immune role that basically did nothing for 6 days). In fact it was really only when the town lost control of the auctions and started having everyone going off and doing their own thing and yelling at each other that they lost.

Remember, the abilities out there are the only abilities.

1) Someone has a doctor. If we know the NK is in the hands of town (or someone has claimed and claimed their target, which is good enough) then the doctor doesn't have to use any shots. Remember, doctor is 2-shot. The later in the game the doctor uses that power, the better it is - and the doctor need only use it when we've lost an NK.

2) Claiming isn't a big deal here. Lets say someone claims "I didn't win an auction!" Big deal. That just means they have more money and will be a PR later in the game. Meanwhile if someone won a PR now, they're not necessarily a threat. Scum can "wait out" the shots.

3) We can coordinate oracle information if we figure things out. At the moment, assume that there's 6 scum (3 teams of 3).

They might be restricted to $100 - that's not how last game went, but nothing went for $100 or $101 which are both totals which would suggest the scum have more than $100. The cop going for $91 in particular points to there being a lack of money on the scumteams. Last game the cop was considered more dangerous than the NK by the scum.

The roleblocker being town, or being controlled by the town makes everything so much safer.


Speaking of which, we should totes make sure someone invests day 1 and 2 and then advertise cop day 2 (Magua adopted my suggestion for advertising).


Remember, I've spent more time analyzing this setup than anyone else except maybe Magua. It's not your normal setup.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No. Controlling the auctions was pretty key to the town's play last game (even if they didn't win, it was due to an investigation immune role that basically did nothing for 6 days). In fact it was really only when the town lost control of the auctions and started having everyone going off and doing their own thing and yelling at each other that they lost.

I’ll have to read up on that game then. Because I’ve usually seen disastrous effects from mass coordination attempts (again, Andy’s Mordor game was the prime example I point to).

1) Someone has a doctor. If we know the NK is in the hands of town (or someone has claimed and claimed their target, which is good enough) then the doctor doesn't have to use any shots. Remember, doctor is 2-shot. The later in the game the doctor uses that power, the better it is - and the doctor need only use it when we've lost an NK.

The problem becomes “What if the Doc is in scum’s hands”. Let’s look at the what happens when Player X claims “I’ve got the Nightkill and I’m targeting Player Y at Night”. I’m assuming for sake of argument that that the Roleblocker (Player Z) has already claimed per your scenario.

Night roles around and Player Y isn’t dead. Player X says he shot him. Player Z claims not to have Roleblocked him. No-one claims to have the Doc.

What course of action do you take?

Of course this is a hypothetical scenario but I’d like to get a handle on how you think things should progress.

[Salamence20]

MoI, your thoughts on Tammy?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, your thoughts on Tammy?

I see nothing out of the ordinary from Tammy. She overposts as Town. She's reactive and melodramatic as Town. She if anything is more reserved as scum.

What is your read on the PartyBois?