Mini 1390: Game Over

[JacobSavage]

Its a little iffy when people haven't posted much unfourtunatly.
With Cherry it was mainly a general scumish vibe with a few bad posts (eg #44) where it seams he was trying to make a plan exist where there wasn’t one, he just forgot to vote, it happens
And agian, he appears to be making issues look at #65 for his responce to ST perfectly acceptable question about timezones. Other than that most of his posts are neutral leaning slight scum

[Cheery Dog]

I assumed the amount of times I have seen the timezone question asked and then attacked in.RQS, that out must be bad.
now that someone has pointed out how it can be useful to y town and not just for scum quick hammers at endgame, I am happy to drop the point. (well I have already, but I may as well state it now.)
I still don't see it as completely useful though, as if something isn't answered within 24 then the timezone doesn't actually matter anyway, the person is still probably lurking.

[Slandaar]

#44 was pretty lol.

#65; Sables question was basically pointless so his question is actually fine. Lets be honest no-one is going to use timezone information to check if someone could be responding or not because of real life etc makes it actually plain bad to do so. I need to check but I don't recall Sable actually chasing answers to it so that shows the pointlessness...

Cheery is this your first non-newbie?

[Tommy]

JacobSavage, good work on the spreadsheet. Please summarise your reads in thread when you have time. Also, are you sure your vote is where you want it to be? Your note about my Parama case calls it 'very thorough' and implies that I made five good points and one null one.

Abaddon, please link to a game where Parama smears his challengers and evades questions as town. As for 'lurking', you lump a lot of stuff under that category. Voting and pushing lynches without explanation are certainly not lurking, because to do them Parama had to post. Also, posting without content twelve times out of thirteen - so-called 'active lurking' - is a better scum tell than true lurking because there are never RL reasons for it.

Slandaar, does your case on Abaddon consist solely of post 17?

I think Abaddon and Radelle are town, and that Radelle is caught up in an angry OMGUS campaign. I could have sworn I caught Radelle sheeping me a while back, and I don't think he/she would do that as scum. But I didn't make a note and I can't find it now, so we'll have to call my position on Radelle a gut read. At deadline, I'd rather kill Radelle than nobody.

TheTrollie, glad you survived the storm. Looking forward to seeing some reasons for your reads.

Slandaar and toxictaipan, what do you think of my case on Parama?

[toxictaipan]

Slandaar and toxictaipan, what do you think of my case on Parama?

You make some good points, but I think you're applying your logic in the wrong way.

Point 1 is fair. He leaves his reasoning open, but Parama voted first. It's Abaddon who's agreeing with Parama.

As for point 2, I'll agree there is no town motivation to muddy the waters, but I also agree with Parama that you have to take implications from time to time. If he changed words and tried to use that as a main point in a case to make another player look scummy, I'd say you really had something there. In this context, however, I don't see it as a huge issue.

Point 3 is also fair, but I think his presence was never great enough to matter. I don't know who all asked him what, or how many times he posted afterward (and I don't care to look right now), but I think most questions that went unanswered were probably due to his lack of presence rather than intentionally dodging them.

I get what you're saying with point 4, but any reasonable townie should be able to ignore this pretty easily. I doubt this tactic is that all that effective, but it is noted.

Point 5: It's arguable that he's looking for contradictions and trying to scum hunt, even if not as much as he should be. Post 47 is another post to consider. Again, I'd say this is mostly due to lack of presence. You have to remember that the majority of his posts happened during the earliest stages of the game when there wasn't much to comment on. We did get out of RVS and move the game into a serious discussion very quickly, but his posting dropped off at the top of page 3. There was stuff to comment on, but still not a ton of stuff. This would be much more suspicious if he had been consistently active and then dropped off around page 5 or so when things started getting really heavy.

Point 6 is defeated by the fact that he replaced out, in my opinion.


The main problem is he wasn't here to post anything, and now he's been replaced. You're trying to attack someone who basically wasn't even there. I think it's better to wait and see how absta101 does and go from there, rather than pursuing a case on someone who isn't even in this game anymore.

[toxictaipan]

@TheTrollie:

Missed this earlier. In Post 55 you stated you had a town read on Cheery Dog. In Post 140 (your very next post) you now have a scum read on him. What has Cheery Dog done that made you change your read on him? Also, I would like to know why you have a scum read on Tommy, and why you have Parama's slot as town.

[Tommy]

I don't know who all asked him what, or how many times he posted afterward (and I don't care to look right now), but I think most questions that went unanswered were probably due to his lack of presence rather than intentionally dodging them.

Apart from RVS, I count three times that he explicitly refused to answer a direct question.

Point 5: It's arguable that he's looking for contradictions and trying to scum hunt, even if not as much as he should be. Post 47 is another post to consider.

Well, but that was another smear. Your posts looked contradictory at first glance, but weren't. If he'd tried to articulate his suspicion, the flaw would have become clear. I called him on it, but he refused to explain. He just left it there as a trap, hoping people would sheep.

The main problem is he wasn't here to post anything, and now he's been replaced. You're trying to attack someone who basically wasn't even there.

I think thirteen posts is enough to see the pattern: a deliberate attempt to minimise his own content and disrupt the town.

[absta101]

Fuck! I'll finish the rest tomorrow. I'm on page 5.
Once i've finished reading and become more involved, i'll be more helpful.
Greetings to the players I know.

^Fake. Overdoing it.

Don't see it.

That's no the only plausible explanation. You may have not actually wanted to place your vote there (with possibly both of you being scum), however you were called out for it and then you did.
I'm not a mindreader so I don't know if it was just forgetful or deliberate. I'm currently going with deliberate with a forgetful backup plan.
I realise you will probably argue this back at me, but I still won't know if it is true or not.

I've forgotten to vote as town a few times, no big deal.

but it is a mistake that is more likely to be made as scum than town ergo a scum tell.

Explain this please.

Does anyone else have a serious problem with Sable Tip's post, or is it just me?

Not liking this.
I agree with what Abbadon said post #64.

Do you think that is true for everyone? (it's not)

Do you have any evidence to back this up?
Like I said, i've done this as town.

Doesn't anyone find it odd that his 3 suspicions (Cheery Dog, Abaddon, and Parama) are all suspicious of Radelle (to varying degrees), but he lists Radelle as a neutral read? If I had any confidence whatsoever in my reads, and all 3 of my suspicions were expressing doubt over the same player, that player would be pretty far up my town reads list. I'd expect him to list Radelle as leaning town at the very least.

I agree.
I'm just skimming through .

[TheTrollie]

@TheTrollie:

Missed this earlier. In Post 55 you stated you had a town read on Cheery Dog. In Post 140 (your very next post) you now have a scum read on him. What has Cheery Dog done that made you change your read on him? Also, I would like to know why you have a scum read on Tommy, and why you have Parama's slot as town.

yeah it was my very next post, but it was also my first post out of V/LA and it was 100 posts later, lots happened, when i get to posting this weekend and reading the thread in more detail ill explain whatever reads i can. I dont even know the answer to those questions right now. i think cheery is the one that looked like newbtown but then started doing scummy stuff, unfortunatly I anticipate cheery being a toss-up for a while because of that.

dont remember the tommy reasoning, i wrote in my notes that his posts were "scummy" which means I probably wasn't ready to call it a scum read as much as to note that some things he has done were questionable. Ill look into that for u.

parama has been screaming town to me since the beginning of this game. I noted that I should re-read him since other ppl are suspicious of him. also the replacement should give us new info. the way the replacement happened also looked pretty town to me, idk i dont see scum replacing out after missing a few pages.

[TheTrollie]

also RE:parama,

not a single argument in Tommy's case:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4448651

says scum to me in the slightest, I actually disagree with most of tommy's claims, and think his evidence is not in support of these claims. I can go through why if anyone is really compelled by the case.

alternatively, the objections to parama's play tommy makes are exactly the type of vague, go-to objections scum would look for when trying to convict town.

[TheTrollie]

Townie reactions would be the same no matter what the alignments concerned were. I don't know what scum reactions would be like in either case (but it's not my reaction test go I wouldn't have had something in mind)

Anyway that argument is going no where.

I am finding it odd that parama couldn't catch up 3 pages - smells faintly of caught scum
VOTE: parama

this is the scummiest of cheery dogs post.

my main concern with cheery dog is that i tend to be prone to having scum reads on players who's posts i find illogical or lacking good judgement, and a good amount of the time these players are actually town.

[Deltabacon]

After reading Cheery Dog's ISO, I can't actually see much in the way of genuinely useful material that people can use. From what I can see, he's pretty much coasted all game, other than his deflection of various suspicions, which he hasn't fought terribly strongly. I don't see any scum-hunting or useful diction from his posts in the last three days, only defensive comments and an answer to a probe from Radelle. Why isn't he looking for scum anymore?

His last post, for example,

I assumed the amount of times I have seen the timezone question asked and then attacked in.RQS, that out must be bad.
now that someone has pointed out how it can be useful to y town and not just for scum quick hammers at endgame, I am happy to drop the point. (well I have already, but I may as well state it now.)
I still don't see it as completely useful though, as if something isn't answered within 24 then the timezone doesn't actually matter anyway, the person is still probably lurking.

What does this actually add other than a little bit of endgame theory?

Why does he jump on a Parama vote, without any proper reasoning? Why does he do it based on the fact that the slot is replacing out? It's lazy logic, not scum-hunting.

UNVOTE: Sable Tip
VOTE: Cheery Dog

Sable Tip is still on the scum side of neutral, but I'm more convinced by the case stacking up against Cheery Dog.

That said, I'm totally not swung on Sable not being scum. It doesn't really look terribly good, the way he chainsawed me and voted me, without any regard to the fact that there is other players in the game. True, there was a discrepancy in my post wherein I did the same thing as him (looked for more contribution from JacobSavage), however this is mitigated by the fact that I was looking mainly at the fact that he made a completely useless dumbtell post in the middle of the day's discussion. I'd like to see him as a probable lynch tommorow, but today I'm more sold on Cheery, barring any other massive scumreads that come up.

[TheTrollie]

There is no good case against Cheery. i.e. note that the case made by delta above consists of a string of rhetorical questions. Delta, you are correct, that vote looks "lazy" but it does not look scummy. I would argue it could be scum-hunting, because it puts parama's replacement on the spot.

Here's a town game of Cheery where he uses the same posting style that I think people are misconstruing as scummy:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

cheery is safe for now

[Deltabacon]

It's not a rhetorical question if it prompts him to do something, which could be either A) Explain himself away some more, or B) Actually start scumhunting and developing proper reads, rather than jumping on the easiest solt he can find.

Of course he could also totally ignore it, which would solidify his scumhood in my eyes.

[Cheery Dog]

Cheery is this your first non-newbie?

I've played to completion 5 non-newbies.
Three of which were micros, one mini normal and one open.

What does this actually add other than a little bit of endgame theory?

It added the reason why I had found out sable's timezone question bad, as it had been brought up, I gave my reasoning as to why I posted that.

It's not a rhetorical question if it prompts him to do something, which could be either A) Explain himself away some more, or B) Actually start scumhunting and developing proper reads, rather than jumping on the easiest solt he can find.

Of course he could also totally ignore it, which would solidify his scumhood in my eyes.

I do my scumhunting with rhetorical questions, generally those are in fact my reasons for thinking a post is scummy just in question form.
Depending on how they are answered, they often don't actually need followed up.

[Deltabacon]

So the only scum hunting you've done is in your Post 18, where we were arguably still in RVS? Your question to Sable was why he wanted timezones, which you conceded to be a fair enough point, which wasn't very scumhunter-ish. If the only scumhunting you've done all game is in RVS, tell us why we shouldn't string you up.

[TheTrollie]

how about this delta:

why does a lack of scumhunting = scum
how do u know he isn't passive town.

I UNDERSTAND THE CASE AGAINST CHEERY. I am not calling cheery town. I am saying the arguments against him are BAD.

Delta, mafia experience?

[Cheery Dog]

So the only scum hunting you've done is in your Post 18, where we were arguably still in RVS? Your question to Sable was why he wanted timezones, which you conceded to be a fair enough point, which wasn't very scumhunter-ish. If the only scumhunting you've done all game is in RVS, tell us why we shouldn't string you up.

With does not translate to exclusively.

You can string me up if you want, this is how I play until I catch my place in a game as town, and quite likely the way I will play when I actually am given a scum role. (but I have no proof of that, my guess it would happen quicker) I am a mostly reactive player.

How does conceding to something even break my use as a scum hunter?
I ask questions which allow options for town motivation to show through with the answers as well as my original thoughts as to why I asked the question. It's not a magic "ask question -> receive scum" system

[Sable Tip]

Post by phone -sorry guys, I've got very little access atm. Should be able to post again tomorrow, just wanted to let you know I haven't disappeared.

[Tommy]

TheTrollie seems town. I quite like Deltabacon's case on Cheery Dog.

[Deltabacon]

@Cheery: You've asked two legitimate questions, one of which was based on theory (the timezone one). You've now twisted my words to show that I apparently think you dropping the argument was not scumhunterish. Wrong. The bit I find scummy and useless about it is that it's such a superficial question to ask. How is pursuing a theoretical viewpoint (that knowledge of posting times can help scum to hammer and confuse town) helpful to us? Saying i'm in GMT is harmless to town, since I post whenever I get the opportunity, which can range from 7-8 in the morning all the way to 10-11 at night.

Furthermore, you said:

I ask questions which allow options for town motivation to show through with the answers as well as my original thoughts as to why I asked the question.

But so far the only non-theoretical questions you've asked anyone were in RVS:

Post 18:

You agree they're scum but not voting them?

Post 27:

Eh, not convinced on that count. The chainsawing is TOO obvious to be real. More likely he's just an idiot.

So I'm an idiot for calling you out for doing something idiotic like leaving your vote in rvs while attacking someone?

Now you say that you don't exclusively use rhetorical questions when scumhunting, but tell me, where else in your 18 posts so far have you scumhunted, amidst all the phatic talk and defenses of yourself?

Tell me, Cheery. Who else do you think is scum and why?

@TheTrollie: I can see where you're coming from with the passive town idea, but he seems active enough to defend himself, but not active enough to scum-hunt.

Delta, mafia experience?

I've been playing mafia on-and-off for about 4-ish years now.

[nhammen]

Replacing JasonWazza
Prodding Idiotking

[absta101]

@Slandaar - What do you think of Tommy?

[_Sherlock_]

Hey guys! I'm the replacement player for JasonWazza. I've played Mafia IRL before, but this is my first game online. I've also read a few games on here.

Can I have a recap of what's happened here?

[nhammen]

As indicated, _Sherlock_ replaces JasonWazza effective immediately.

@Mod Im going away this weekend so if dont post its because of that

Noted.