Open 455 - Tit for Tat - OVER

[Cheery Dog]

I'd like to see them be able to progress with their 1 v 1 tomorrow, I don't have a definite read on either of them, and them having a 1 v 1 (while still looking out at everyone else in the game) might be able to help be indentify their alignments better.
MoI is currently leading the race, but I'm still not convinced.

This post moves Cheery from my Town reads to a Null read. On a gut level this reads as something I would expect scum to post (encouraging the 1 v 1 without committing to a read on either player).

I don't want to be lynching either of them today, I will possibly look through their ISOs during the night,

but my reads aren't likely to change anyway.

The bolded is suspect. You just said you didn’t have a ‘definitive read’ on either of us. Why don’t you see your reads changing with review overnight and a flip to work with when you don’t have a solid read now?

While non-definite reads, you were both null-leaning town - and I felt that there was a chance I was reading you both wrongly. (the 1-1 had focused my mind into the present and I had been forgetting why I was reading you both as town)
I voted Klick and then unvoted him during the last few hours of yesterday because it was quite probable that we weren't going to get bitmap lynched, and then I realised that I was in fact not sick of the day at that stage. (however I was waiting to see what was going to happen as to whether I should have been voting bitmap again or leaving my vote off) I saw Klick as town around there and I realised that I'd rather not lynch townreads.
My unvote of Nekoko happened because I wasn't liking the director's posts, and given that was the slot that Nekoko had been targeting, I thought there may have been some worth in it.

Why I wanted the 1v1 to continue into today is because I wasn't going to be following through with it on the death of one of the contestants yesterday, and I unless you do something obvscummy today I probably will continue with not going through with it today.

[Shamrock]

Nekoko, who is scum?

[Shamrock]

I don't need a wall or a complete read list - just who you think is scum and a brief explanation of why.

[Disturbed_One]

I agree with Nekoko's (successful) attempt at survival being a scum-tell. While I think both town and scum want to stay alive, I get the sense Nekoko is plain desperate to stay alive and the switch from Venmar to Klick I think proves that desperation.

Vote: Nekoko

[guille2015]

My vote will go to Nekoko, basically for the reasons stated above. Just waiting for everyone to check in.

I don't need a wall or a complete read list - just who you think is scum and a brief explanation of why.

This.

Why I wanted the 1v1 to continue into today is because I wasn't going to be following through with it on the death of one of the contestants yesterday, and I unless you do something obvscummy today I probably will continue with not going through with it today.

I would think that leaving a play like this for later in the game might would be very risky. I still think it was a stupid play nonetheless.

[Messiah]

Vote Count 2.2

With nine alive it will take five to lynch.

L-2

Nekoko

- A_Potato, Lord Mhork, Disturbed_One

MagnaofIllusion

-

the director

-

Lord Mhork

-

A_Potato

-

Disturbed_One

-

Cheery Dog

-

guille2015

-

Shamrock

-

Not Voting: Nekoko, MagnaofIllusion, the director, Cheery Dog, guille2015, Shamrock

Deadline in (expired on 2012-11-14 18:00:00).

[MagnaofIllusion]

So let’s discuss the game-state.

There are nine players alive. We have lost 3 Vanilla Town. So the set-up as it stands looks like this right now.

Town –

1 Vig
1 Jailkeeper
1 Backup-RoleCop
3 VTs

Scum –

1 RoleCop
1 Back-up Jailkeeper
1 Goon

A mislynch today combined with a Mis-Vig tonight and a successful Mafia kill means it is 3 v 3. So today is MYLO. Either we lynch successfully today or the Vig risks the game making a bad shot. Keep this in mind going forward today.

Personally my gut says that the Jailkeeper and Back-up RoleCop should probably claim. I can elaborate on the reasons if necessary.

--

If MoI is scum like kondi seems to think he can be lynched tomorrow, but I'm not that sure on it yet so I'm not going to follow through.

Why don’t you have a read Potato? Town Potato in Carbon 14 was more than willing to yell for my head (him being dead wrong irrelevant to the issue).

--

My unvote of Nekoko happened because I wasn't liking the director's posts, and given that was the slot that Nekoko had been targeting, I thought there may have been some worth in it.

Please explain how you not liking Director’s posts made you change your opinion on Nekoko. Because scum do bus / distance. What did you ‘not like’ about the Director that indicated scum?

[the director]

Nekoko's reasoning for voting elsewhere is so transparent the fact it isn't obvtown is disgraceful. I find it interesting she was the target of the D2 quick wagon.

VOTE: guille2015

His last post was basically "hey guys I think the target of the current wagon is scummy but I'm just here to test the waters before posting."

He needs to get to L-1 ASAP. Let's see how he handles pressure.

[Cheery Dog]

Please explain how you not liking Director’s posts made you change your opinion on Nekoko. Because scum do bus / distance. What did you ‘not like’ about the Director that indicated scum?

They just read as bad. I don't see how town would come in and declare an obvscum and then give out a team of the most suspicious players that had been mentioned. (although it did somehow exclude Nekoko)

Venmar was the first person to vote Nekoko, and seeing as she wasn't being looked at before his post, and there would have been a great many town choices to start a wagon on, I don't see him choosing to bus.

If we don't hit scum with the l;ynch today, I believe the vig shouldn't shoot.

[the director]

By the way all town PRs should claim and we wait for counter claims. That is all.

[the director]

And MagnaofIllusion gets a scum point for not calling for even the vig to claim.

[A_Potato]

If MoI is scum like kondi seems to think he can be lynched tomorrow, but I'm not that sure on it yet so I'm not going to follow through.

Why don’t you have a read Potato? Town Potato in Carbon 14 was more than willing to yell for my head (him being dead wrong irrelevant to the issue)

Because I haven't been paying much attention to what you're actually posting since you wall too much and it's hard for me to read. Couldn't you tell just from our earlier conversation?

[Cheery Dog]

By the way all town PRs should claim and we wait for counter claims. That is all.

Why should be have them claim and expose themselves to the mafia kill tonight?
Have them claim tomorrow and not have the vig take a shot tonight would be better in my opinion. (especially if we end up mislynching again today)

@Mod, if we get to 3v3 with both the jailkeeper and the vig alive, does the game continue going?

[Nekoko]

Nekoko, who is scum?

I feel like guille2015 is cautious scum.
He's not getting attention and
he wants to be agreeable to most people.

Aside from the fact that I don't like his "buddying" tone
I find the following posts suspicious

I can comfortably vote for either of them. I have no clear priority on either, but I can easily lynch any.

My vote will go to Nekoko, basically for the reasons stated above. Just waiting for everyone to check in.

So, VOTE: guille2015

---

My read on Venmar's slot has changed.
Venmar must be really unmotivated to replace out here
which explains why I think he's not really scum hunting
(focused on me entirely or something - easy to do)

---

How about you? Who is scum?

[Nekoko]

Either we lynch successfully today or the Vig risks the game making a bad shot

Then the vig should never risk the game by shooting someone if we mislynch today?

Personally my gut says that the Jailkeeper and Back-up RoleCop should probably claim. I can elaborate on the reasons if necessary.

I am curious. Was this done frequently before?
Is role claiming frequently done during MYLO in this forums?

[Nekoko]

Actually, Nekoko, self preservation is often a good scum tell. Scum tends to be very eager to live, for there are less of them and they want to win. When you're trying to anyone lynched--especially someone like Klick--you look very desperate and very scummy.

I don't agree. If you think you're town, you wouldn't want to waste the town's vote on you.

For now, I'll sheep Om's vote,

agreeing that Nekoko is kinda sketchy.

I didn't understand the bolded part.
What were you trying to say?

[Cheery Dog]

If you think you're town, you wouldn't want to waste the town's vote on you.

You only think you're town, what? If you're town, then you would

know

you're town.

My read on Venmar's slot has changed.
Venmar must be really unmotivated to replace out here
which explains why I think he's not really scum hunting
(focused on me entirely or something - easy to do)

Your last given read on venmar's slot was scum, and it's remained unchanged here, yet you're voting the same person as it's new occupant is voting?

VOTE: Nekoko

I believe this is L-1

[Nekoko]

You only think you're town, what? If you're town, then you would know you're town.

Wow because I used the word "think" you think it's a mafia slip.
I sometimes use the two interchangeably as they sound the same to me.

It think it's idiotic to lynch a town leader on Day 1.

Although I said "think" here, I'm 100% sure it's idiotic to lynch a town leader on Day 1.

Your last given read on venmar's slot was scum, and it's remained unchanged here, yet you're voting the same person as it's new occupant is voting?

What do you mean remain unchanged??
I did say my read on him changed...

[Cheery Dog]

Yes, knowing and thinking are completely different things.

but the other point is correct, I somehow placed the "un" at the start of changed.

I'll put you back to L-2 since I had misread that sentence, and I don't really want the possibility of a lynch going through two pages into day 2.

UNVOTE:

[guille2015]

Nekoko's reasoning for voting elsewhere is so transparent the fact it isn't obvtown is disgraceful. I find it interesting she was the target of the D2 quick wagon.

VOTE: guille2015

His last post was basically "hey guys I think the target of the current wagon is scummy but I'm just here to test the waters before posting."

He needs to get to L-1 ASAP. Let's see how he handles pressure.

Uh, What! I got a vote!! AHhhh, Panic! *Runs around in circles.* What else do you want me to do?

So, basically, here you are saying that Nekoko is town for his desperation in self preservation? The odd thing about it that it was the 2nd vote. Town self preservation usually votes for the player with an equal chance of getting lynched, which would have been bitmap at the time. The difference here is that Nekoko kept saying that Venmar was town, hence his vote for Klick, which he could have also gone for MoI. There is something odd in all that reaction. No, I am very comfortable with my Vote intent.

[guille2015]

Yes, knowing and thinking are completely different things.

but the other point is correct, I somehow placed the "un" at the start of changed.

I'll put you back to L-2 since I had misread that sentence, and I don't really want the possibility of a lynch going through two pages into day 2.

UNVOTE:

Actually, Leaving a suspected scum at L-1 when there is quite a bit of discussion that needs to take place. Scum can easily self hammer or hammer if it's not the same person and thus eliminating whatever discussion we can get.

I am particularly interested in MoI's explanation on why those two town PRs should claim. I have a feeling I know the answer and I expect to agree if it's the same thing I am thinking.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Since Nekoko has been put at L-1 once already I’m going to go ahead and claim myself since my claim gives scum the toughest decision at Night.

I’m the Town Back-up Role Cop

.

--

@Nekoko

– You were at L-1. Why didn’t you claim? Guile had already expressed intention to vote you.

Then the vig should never risk the game by shooting someone if we mislynch today?

Nope. If I were the Vig I’d probably shoot given a 60% chance of success without applying reads (assuming I got buy in from JK and BackUp RoleCop to claim). But it is a risk and a bad shot basically makes the Vig the goat. It really is going to depend on how confident the Vig is in their abilities.

Is role claiming frequently done during MYLO in this forums?

In an open set-up it should be done 100 out of 100 times. As it forces scum to either counter-claim (and risk being lynched or shot) or allow Town Powerroles to become confirmed.

Roleclaiming in actual LYLO doesn’t necessarily help Town as it freely allows Scum to counter-claim and win outright on a mis-lynch. Here’s a link to an example –

Open 320. This was the alternate setup (Mafia began with the Jailkeeper and Town began with the RoleCop) but the result shows why mass-claiming (or in the case of this game limited Role Claiming) before LYLO is good.

Magua was nailed by SleepyKrew (actual RoleCop) in 7 person LYLO (Vig already dead, all scum alive). I counterclaimed Sleepy’s claim of RoleCop and one Townie was convinced to vote with Magua, Stefan B and I as opposed to Sleepy and the rest of Town.

--

Nekoko's reasoning for voting elsewhere is so transparent the fact it isn't obvtown is disgraceful. I find it interesting she was the target of the D2 quick wagon.

stuff removed

His last post was basically "hey guys I think the target of the current wagon is scummy but I'm just here to test the waters before posting."

So who are the scum bandwagonning the player you softly call Obv-Town Director? Why no attention to the players actually making the votes?

By the way all town PRs should claim and we wait for counter claims. That is all.

And MagnaofIllusion gets a scum point for not calling for even the vig to claim.

Nope. The Vig should remain hidden. The remaining VT roles serve as a buffer to the Vig making it riskier for scum to try to kill the Vig. The Backup and Jailkeeper claiming makes sure the Vig doesn’t shoot them accidently and narrows down their pool of “Who can possibly be scum” to worst case (on a mislynch) a 3 in 5 chance of killing scum if they risk the shot.

But your posts today and yesterday make me confident enough in dropping a vote on your slot.

VOTE: Director

--

They just read as bad. I don't see how town would come in and declare an obvscum and then give out a team of the most suspicious players that had been mentioned. (although it did somehow exclude Nekoko)

That’s not what I asked. You didn’t commit to Director as scummy here … just incompetent. So why should a player (who you don’t think is scum) and their comments change your read on a player you did think was scum if they are just a bad player?

@Mod, if we get to 3v3 with both the jailkeeper and the vig alive, does the game continue going?

Why are you asking this? If you really wanted to know you’d go to Post 2 and read the publicly stated Mafia Wincon –

Win condition:
You win when the Mafia obtain a majority or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Clearly the Mafia getting to 3-3 is not a majority so not an instant win. It does require Town to either lynch correctly (or lose before Night actions can happen) or go to Night with a No Lynch and hope that both the Jailkeeper correctly blocks / protects the Mafia kill and the Vig doesn’t shoot Town. So not exactly a scenario that is worth risking without factors (like 1 of the scum being outed due to claims and flips).

At a gut level I really don’t like this as it looks like Faux “Look at How Helpful I am” Town Cred-grabbing.

--

Because I haven't been paying much attention to what you're actually posting since you wall too much and it's hard for me to read. Couldn't you tell just from our earlier conversation?

If you are Town stop playing Mafia then because this is such a load of crap.

[the director]

Since Nekoko has been put at L-1 once already I’m going to go ahead and claim myself since my claim gives scum the toughest decision at Night.

I’m the Town Back-up Role Cop

.

--

@Nekoko

– You were at L-1. Why didn’t you claim? Guile had already expressed intention to vote you.

Then the vig should never risk the game by shooting someone if we mislynch today?

Nope. If I were the Vig I’d probably shoot given a 60% chance of success without applying reads (assuming I got buy in from JK and BackUp RoleCop to claim). But it is a risk and a bad shot basically makes the Vig the goat. It really is going to depend on how confident the Vig is in their abilities.

Is role claiming frequently done during MYLO in this forums?

In an open set-up it should be done 100 out of 100 times. As it forces scum to either counter-claim (and risk being lynched or shot) or allow Town Powerroles to become confirmed.

Roleclaiming in actual LYLO doesn’t necessarily help Town as it freely allows Scum to counter-claim and win outright on a mis-lynch. Here’s a link to an example –

Open 320. This was the alternate setup (Mafia began with the Jailkeeper and Town began with the RoleCop) but the result shows why mass-claiming (or in the case of this game limited Role Claiming) before LYLO is good.

Magua was nailed by SleepyKrew (actual RoleCop) in 7 person LYLO (Vig already dead, all scum alive). I counterclaimed Sleepy’s claim of RoleCop and one Townie was convinced to vote with Magua, Stefan B and I as opposed to Sleepy and the rest of Town.

--

Nekoko's reasoning for voting elsewhere is so transparent the fact it isn't obvtown is disgraceful. I find it interesting she was the target of the D2 quick wagon.

stuff removed

His last post was basically "hey guys I think the target of the current wagon is scummy but I'm just here to test the waters before posting."

So who are the scum bandwagonning the player you softly call Obv-Town Director? Why no attention to the players actually making the votes?

By the way all town PRs should claim and we wait for counter claims. That is all.

And MagnaofIllusion gets a scum point for not calling for even the vig to claim.

Nope. The Vig should remain hidden. The remaining VT roles serve as a buffer to the Vig making it riskier for scum to try to kill the Vig. The Backup and Jailkeeper claiming makes sure the Vig doesn’t shoot them accidently and narrows down their pool of “Who can possibly be scum” to worst case (on a mislynch) a 3 in 5 chance of killing scum if they risk the shot.

But your posts today and yesterday make me confident enough in dropping a vote on your slot.

VOTE: Director

--

They just read as bad. I don't see how town would come in and declare an obvscum and then give out a team of the most suspicious players that had been mentioned. (although it did somehow exclude Nekoko)

That’s not what I asked. You didn’t commit to Director as scummy here … just incompetent. So why should a player (who you don’t think is scum) and their comments change your read on a player you did think was scum if they are just a bad player?

@Mod, if we get to 3v3 with both the jailkeeper and the vig alive, does the game continue going?

Why are you asking this? If you really wanted to know you’d go to Post 2 and read the publicly stated Mafia Wincon –

Win condition:
You win when the Mafia obtain a majority or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Clearly the Mafia getting to 3-3 is not a majority so not an instant win. It does require Town to either lynch correctly (or lose before Night actions can happen) or go to Night with a No Lynch and hope that both the Jailkeeper correctly blocks / protects the Mafia kill and the Vig doesn’t shoot Town. So not exactly a scenario that is worth risking without factors (like 1 of the scum being outed due to claims and flips).

At a gut level I really don’t like this as it looks like Faux “Look at How Helpful I am” Town Cred-grabbing.

--

Because I haven't been paying much attention to what you're actually posting since you wall too much and it's hard for me to read. Couldn't you tell just from our earlier conversation?

If you are Town stop playing Mafia then because this is such a load of crap.

Yeah I'm not reading all of that. Can I get the Sportscenter highlight version of that book you just wrote? Kthx.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah I'm not reading all of that. Can I get the Sportscenter highlight version of that book you just wrote? Kthx.

Nope reading isn't a hardship Tex.

I'll take it you aren't counterclaiming since my claim was right up front.

[the director]

Yeah I'm not reading all of that. Can I get the Sportscenter highlight version of that book you just wrote? Kthx.

Nope reading isn't a hardship Tex.

I'll take it you aren't counterclaiming since my claim was right up front.

I'll take it that you are paranoid about getting counterclaimed.