Micro 70 ~ Mafia in Triplicate (Game Over!)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Shmugen, now that Konowa has responded to me, would you care to respond to my response to you? I have trouble understanding why you found me suspicious for attacking Konowa. I have explained why I voted him to you very clearly in my response. Your reason for FOSsing me was that you didn't understand why I FOSsed Konowa. I am not suspicious of Konowa anymore but that is beside the point.

[Shmugen]

Theme Music

Apparently I need to learn to type more clearly. At this stage of the game, Tierce was fighting with Nobody Special over something I considered silly/frivolous. If Tierce was scum, this is not a battle I would see her fighting, ergo my thinking she was town. I was not talking about my picking of any battles.

@16 - It took a few more readings, but I get where you were going with the Konowa point now. I think what was throwing me was your phrasing when talking about how you weren't debating Tierce's townread on Konowa, leading me to think you agreed with it only to vote him in the next post? I should really try taking notes one of these games so I understand what I've been thinking.

[Xalxe]

Sorry guys, I had a super busy weekend and tomorrow is LOLELECTIONDAY, and I'm working the coverage for that. I will look at the game with fresh eyes on Wednesday and catch the scum.

[saulres]

Saul, my 'if I had to pick one' comment was not dependent on Tierce or NS to establish the status of the other.

I don't see that. If you thought the argument was silly, then if you're town, there are three possibilities:

1) It's a scum-on-scum battle.
2) It's a town-on-town battle.

You didn't put forth either of the above possibilities. You went with the third option:

3) It's a scum-on-town battle. That's when you said "if I had to pick one". As town, you shouldn't be picking one, you should be looking at both possibilities. Either:
a) Tierce-scum vs NS-town, or
b) Tierce-town vs. NS-scum.

You addressed option a. And then you said that that option didn't work, because you couldn't see Tierce-scum making such a big deal out of that argument. And that's what you said in 176:

At this stage of the game, Tierce was fighting with Nobody Special over something I considered silly/frivolous. If Tierce was scum, this is not a battle I would see her fighting, ergo my thinking

she

was town.

But when you

originally

came to a conclusion, without using option b at all, you said:

ergo I think they're

both

town.

Where did your "NS is town" to come to that conclusion come from? I see absolutely nothing in the thread before that post to give

anyone

the idea that NS is town. That's why I see it as a scumslip, it reads like you

know

NS's alignment (either that he's town, or that he's a scumbuddy that you're trying to gloss on by).

---

I really dislike the way you point out that this information exists and is potentially valuable, but then fail to integrate it into the conclusions you draw in any substantial manner.

Um... I

did

integrate it. It was subtler with Xalxe (I stopped voting him but didn't say that meant I thought he was town), but I thought quite clear with Shmugen ("Just because he's always called scum, I'm not going to let that dissuade me from thinking he could actually

be

scum in this game", followed by me voting him).

you're using meta-evidence to justify lurkers being dangerous in micros, but you're not willing to take meta-evidence into account when it pushes against the argument you've decided on...

When did I not take it into account? I stopped voting for Xalxe.

---

Oh look, my scumread puts me at L-1 without mentioning it. Why am I not surprised?

---

F-16 wants my reasoning for my townreads.

Tierce: The first townpoints I gave her were for 40. She asked you the same thing I wanted to ask you, which is saying "Hey! How come you don't suspect me (Tierce)?" Scum could just sit back and not say anything, but she drew attention to the fact that you didn't express any suspicion of her. So some townpoints there.

The next comment in my notes is when I got to 73 is "So obvtown by this point it hurts". I think what happened as I was going was I kept agreeing with her and suddenly realized it. And she continues to do pro-town things, like notifying everyone that I'm at L-1.

Shamrock I read as town for 54 and 55. By that time I was convinced that Shmugen was scum and I didn't see his question or his vote as coming from a scumbuddy.

Why would Shmugen want to "pick his battles" as town?

I didn't say that, I was quoting Shmugen.

[Vi]

Vote Count VII:

Actually,
saulres (L-1) ~ Nobody Special, Shamrock, Tierce, Shmugen
Nobody Special (L-3) ~ Empire,

{Tierce,}

Konowa
F-16_Fighting_Falcon (L-4) ~ Xalxe
Shmugen (L-4) ~ saulres

Shmugen (L-5) ~

{Shamrock}

Xalxe (L-5) ~

{saulres, Konowa}

Not Voting:

F-16_Fighting_Falcon,

{Shmugen}

-saulres is at L-1!

--With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
--Deadline is November 12, 2012 - in

(expired on 2012-11-12 20:00:00)

.

[Shmugen]

In post 169, Shmugen wrote:
Saul, my 'if I had to pick one' comment was not dependent on Tierce or NS to establish the status of the other.


I don't see that. If you thought the argument was silly, then if you're town, there are three possibilities:

1) It's a scum-on-scum battle.
2) It's a town-on-town battle.

You didn't put forth either of the above possibilities. You went with the third option:

3) It's a scum-on-town battle. That's when you said "if I had to pick one". As town, you shouldn't be picking one, you should be looking at both possibilities. Either:
a) Tierce-scum vs NS-town, or
b) Tierce-town vs. NS-scum.

You addressed option a. And then you said that that option didn't work, because you couldn't see Tierce-scum making such a big deal out of that argument. And that's what you said in 176:

Hypotheticals, my dear scarecrow. I did put forth option two given my info at the time, along with a variation of option 3. As stated, I thought the argument was silly. I thought Tierce's insistence on the NS vote on Vi foolish, considering that Vi DID advertise the game as non-normal, and NS's omgus vote on Tierce equally foolish considering their intellectual debate. The surface level of that kind of play is too shallow to ascribe serious reads to either Tierce or NS, but it reminded me of town v town, hence the statement.

[Shamrock]

Um... I

did

integrate it. It was subtler with Xalxe (I stopped voting him but didn't say that meant I thought he was town), but I thought quite clear with Shmugen ("Just because he's always called scum, I'm not going to let that dissuade me from thinking he could actually

be

scum in this game", followed by me voting him).

It's more the way you dismissed it completely like you weren't at all interested in considering any kind of evidence for his being town.

Oh look, my scumread puts me at L-1 without mentioning it. Why am I not surprised?

Really? =/

Shamrock I read as town for 54 and 55. By that time I was convinced that Shmugen was scum and I didn't see his question or his vote as coming from a scumbuddy.

By the top of page 3, you were so convinced that Shmugen was scum that you were willing to start drawing conclusions about other people's alignment based on their interactions with him? This seems like a bit of a stretch.

[Tierce]

Tierce: The first townpoints I gave her were for

40

. She asked you the same thing I wanted to ask you, which is saying "Hey! How come you don't suspect me (Tierce)?" Scum could just sit back and not say anything, but she drew attention to the fact that you didn't express any suspicion of her. So some townpoints there.

The next comment in my notes is when I got to

73

is "So obvtown by this point it hurts". I think what happened as I was going was I kept agreeing with her and suddenly realized it. And she continues to do pro-town things, like notifying everyone that I'm at L-1.

This

makes very little sense when one looks at the post numbers here:

Tierce, where's your rage? You town-raged on me in another game when you thought I was scum, you scum-raged on Amrun in PARANOIA Mafia. I'm glad you're calm on your birthday but your changed demeanor is worrisome. Has it changed since we last played together?

Why is it worrisome if what you call 'rage' is alignment-null?

That was actually bothering me too so I thought about it today, and realized it's because I made a mistake. I was remembering your rage vs. Amrun and thought it was in PARANOIA Mafia where you were scum, but it was really in Worst Roles where you were town. I also remembered you saying somewhere (I'll have to look for it when I have time) that you're all rage-like when you're town but more calm when you're scum, and

that

is what was worrying me. I just couldn't put my finger on that memory yesterday.

I don't see why someone with such a Townread on me would make such a fuss about me not bringing fire and brimstone to the thread; i.e. there is little reason for Town-saulres-with-a-Townread-on-Tierce to suddenly go "wait, she's calmer than I remember her, this

must mean something

" instead of assuming a natural playstyle shift. It feels more like you were worried I was going to bring hell down on you-scum and decided to remark on it for Townpoints when you found it absent; that is a train of thought that makes a lot more sense for scum-saulres than Town-saulres.

As for the Townread itself, it seems such weak reasoning. You've seen me as both alignments and had more elaborate reads on me with a lot less self-referencing. I'm not you and I don't particularly care what you say you thought at instance A or B, as going through the thread there is no actual evidence that this was what was going through your head at the time. It feels more like pandering to me than anything else.

[Tierce]

What's more:

The first townpoints I gave

[Tierce]

were for 40. She asked you

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

the same thing I wanted to ask you

, which is saying "Hey! How come you don't suspect me (Tierce)?" Scum could just sit back and not say anything, but she drew attention to the fact that you didn't express any suspicion of her. So some townpoints there.

Why would

you

want to ask

this

of F-16_Fighting_Falcon? My question had a very explicit purpose: we have played together before and he was incredibly paranoid of me in our last game. However, we are talking about an alt account here, and there was a very clear reason why

I

would feel his Townread on me merited prodding (our previous history together), while it makes no sense for anyone else to question his Townread in such a manner, since

no one else

has our history together. So once more, I think this is pandering to me, trying to show you're thinking the way I'm thinking--but it is nonsensical for Town-saulres to think in this manner, because

you are not me

. I would see sense in Town-saulres to ask if we had had history together (Xalxe even asked who he was, for example), but you didn't do that. Your 'thoughts' make no sense from a Town perspective.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Shmugen,

@16 - It took a few more readings, but I get where you were going with the Konowa point now. I think what was throwing me was your phrasing when talking about how you weren't debating Tierce's townread on Konowa, leading me to think you agreed with it only to vote him in the next post? I should really try taking notes one of these games so I understand what I've been thinking.

You thought I agreed with Tierce's townread on Konowa but I voted Konowa anyways which you found as scummy? Why did you need to wait for Konowa's response to answer that?

I'll put it this way, fellow who posted two minutes after me. I'm never one to talk re: skill level, but the bit about Tierce's breaking the voting circle being a townread is bush league.

The only motivation I can see for it is not knowing who Tierce is and thinking it would get Tierce to leave you alone.

So, you did not read this post?

Yo. I know who you are. How come you're apparently not the least bit paranoid of me here?

If you did read it, then you are fabricating scumtells.

As for Konowa, I don't fully comprehend the paranoia argument, but it smells like you're trying to bait people into chainsawing

. I misread the bit about Konowa not asking for info as you wanting him to say more, my bad on that front.

Can you explain the bolded part. I don't understand it.

Also, you say you misunderstood why I was voting Konowa, but my 126 explains why I thought Konowa was scum. So, the misunderstanding was cleared. Why did you need to wait for Konowa's response to only later give me an answer that had nothing to do with Konowa's response?

Saulres

, I am very interested in hearing your responses to Tierce's 182 and 183 as well.

Shamrock

,

I have Opinions but I wanna see how he responds to your post first.

Care to share?

Tierce

,
Do you think NobodySpecial is town now, or is he bussing Saulres?

[Tierce]

Do you think NobodySpecial is town now, or is he bussing Saulres?

Not telling~

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Vote Count VII:

saulres (L-1) ~

Nobody Special, Shamrock, Tierce, Shmugen

Nobody Special (L-3) ~ Empire,

{Tierce,}

Konowa
F-16_Fighting_Falcon (L-4) ~ Xalxe
Shmugen (L-4) ~ saulres

Shmugen (L-5) ~

{Shamrock}

Xalxe (L-5) ~

{saulres, Konowa}

Not Voting:

F-16_Fighting_Falcon,

{Shmugen}

I don't buy that a wagon this quick doesn't have scum in it. Either Saulres is town or scum are bussing to make it seem like he is town. So, I am thinking at least one scum amongst NS, Shamrock, Tierce, Shmugen.

Suspicions is order:

1) Shmugen - his vote on me really makes no sense at all and I am not sure why he wanted to wait for Konowa's reponse. I explained it in detail in my previous post as well.
2) Shamrock - The hesitation in giving opinions about me vs Konowa makes sense if it is town/town and Shamrock doesn't want to poke his head in it too early.
3) NS - Pops up out of nowhere to place a vote on Saulres; he himself has been lurking and largely just ignoring the pressure on him hoping it would go away. I still have a gut feeling he might be frustrated town.
4) Tierce - actively townhunting, I am leaning town on her.

VOTE: Shmugen

[saulres]

Tierce,

In response to 182: All posts I made before 167 were when I had 5, maybe 10 minutes to be onsite each day. I skimmed and I commented on the things I thought were worth giving a little bit of attention to (including, as always, answering questions posed to me and responding to allegations made against me). 167 came after a thorough and detailed reading of the thread. I picked up on way more things during that than in the skimming. So the sequence of events you're questioning are, to me, non-chronological. 109 and 113 were made on previous days with minimal if any analysis. My thoughts about 40 and 73 were made today when I was looking in detail.

In response to 183: I wanted to ask F16 about his 39 because it was another example of someone's post that seems to imply alignment knowledge. He offered a couple of "possibilities" to explain your actions. Neither of them included "she's scum". I didn't think his townread on you, based entirely on breaking the RVS circle, was strong enough to be talking about you like you were conftown.

As to trying to pander to you? I can see where you might think that, but it's not the case. I call 'em like I see 'em.

[Tierce]

talking about you like you were conftown

Holy exaggeration batman. Evidence, please.

Get back in here, F-16_Fighting_Falcon. One scum at a time.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

talking about you like you were conftown

Holy exaggeration batman. Evidence, please.

Get back in here, F-16_Fighting_Falcon. One scum at a time.

??

I buy Saulres's explanation regarding the non-chronological order of posts. He really did seem like he needed to catch up.

[Shmugen]

Shmugen,

@16 - It took a few more readings, but I get where you were going with the Konowa point now. I think what was throwing me was your phrasing when talking about how you weren't debating Tierce's townread on Konowa, leading me to think you agreed with it only to vote him in the next post? I should really try taking notes one of these games so I understand what I've been thinking.

You thought I agreed with Tierce's townread on Konowa but I voted Konowa anyways which you found as scummy? Why did you need to wait for Konowa's response to answer that?

I'll put it this way, fellow who posted two minutes after me. I'm never one to talk re: skill level, but the bit about Tierce's breaking the voting circle being a townread is bush league.

The only motivation I can see for it is not knowing who Tierce is and thinking it would get Tierce to leave you alone.

So, you did not read this post?

Yo. I know who you are. How come you're apparently not the least bit paranoid of me here?

If you did read it, then you are fabricating scumtells.

As for Konowa, I don't fully comprehend the paranoia argument, but it smells like you're trying to bait people into chainsawing

. I misread the bit about Konowa not asking for info as you wanting him to say more, my bad on that front.

Can you explain the bolded part. I don't understand it.

Also, you say you misunderstood why I was voting Konowa, but my 126 explains why I thought Konowa was scum. So, the misunderstanding was cleared. Why did you need to wait for Konowa's response to only later give me an answer that had nothing to do with Konowa's response?

1. I wanted to wait for Konowa's response, I didn't want to talk it out to the point where Konowa's response would have been altered. Some of these conclusions I've come to lately I had not come to the first time. My reading style and active memory do not play nice with mafiascum.

2. I read it. Again, hypotheticals. Even though it could not be due to Tierce's post you quoted, it was still the only reason I could think of to say that. That exchange does tell me that you and Tierce are not scum together, though, so there's that.

3. Based on the understanding I had when I typed the bolded part, it felt a lot like you were trying to get Konowa to defend Tierce's reasoning via fighting with you.

4. Konowa's response did not end up changing what I thought.

[Tierce]

@F-16_Fighting_Falcon, regarding saulred:

How about the inane misrepresentation of how you were acting toward me to justify feeling like he had to ask a question that made no sense? i.e. the entirety of Post 183 is perfectly valid. Go look at your own ISO and see if there was any sign of you treating me any way close to 'confTown' by Post 39, then see how absurd it is that, for saulres, it would make sense to inquire about your nonexistent paranoia about me

when saulres hasn't seen us play together before

.

Seriously, look at this:

In response to 183: I wanted to ask F16 about his 39 because it was another example of someone's post that seems to imply alignment knowledge. He offered a couple of "possibilities" to explain your actions. Neither of them included "she's scum". I didn't think his townread on you, based entirely on breaking the RVS circle, was strong enough to be talking about you like you were conftown.

1) You were not talking about me like I were confTown.
2) He's trying to sell "F-16 didn't posit the possibility of Tierce being scum when describing Tierce's actions as proTown" as something suspicious and worth prodding. What? So... you explain a Townread, but it's "indicative of extra knowledge" that you don't posit the Townread being wrong? How does this even make sense as a Town mindset? saulres isn't one of that ridiculous minority of players for whom "D1 Townreads are scummy", so why is he trying to push

a Townread out of an RVS action

as "something that hints at too much knowledge"?

(Answer: he's scum.)


2. is bush league, Shmutaloo.

[Shmugen]

Which part, the hypothetical or the you two not scum together? If the first, yeah, somewhat. I'm in this angry place with alts right now where I rudely assume they're newbs and this is their first game while reminding myself that what they're actually doing is trying to trick me at a very base level. If the second, nah, I'm happy for myself that I put that together. Square peg goes into square hole, yeah, but I did it myself for once.

[saulres]

Oh come off it Tierce. It doesn't matter to me one whit whether someone played with you or not, if they're town they should have paranoia of

everyone

.

Shmugen is making assumptions as to what Tierce is doing (digging to see what comes up) which he doesn't know. It is a possibility that Tierce is digging.

It is also a possibility that Tierce has a legit scumtell on NS.

The sentence before the bold is saying what Shmugen said. The bold sentence is an original thought. If I wrote those sentences, to show possibilities, it would be followed with "It is also a possibility that Tierce is scum trying to fabricate a case" or something like that. The absence of such a line,

especially

so early in the game, is suspicious, no matter if he's played with you before or not.

[Shamrock]

By the top of page 3, you were so convinced that Shmugen was scum that you were willing to start drawing conclusions about other people's alignment based on their interactions with him? This seems like a bit of a stretch.

Do you agree or disagree with this quote

[Shamrock]

F-16, I honestly have no idea what I originally meant to say about Konowa. I looked over the exchange again and got no distinct impressions, so... yeah.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ Tierce, I agree with Saulres's point that I didn't consider the possibility of you being scum in my 39, but I also think "treating you as if you were conf-town" is an exaggeration on Saulres's part. I am trying to figure out if it was done with scum motivation or merely if that is how he interpreted it.

He's trying to sell "F-16 didn't posit the possibility of Tierce being scum when describing Tierce's actions as proTown" as something suspicious and worth prodding.

Then why has he completely ignored me in his analysis and voted the person that

I

was pressuring when I made that post? It doesn't make sense as town OR scum.

@ Saulres, did you find my 39 suspicious? If so, why are you voting the person I voted in that post? (Unless you think I am bussing Shmugen that early in the game).

[Tierce]

If the second, nah, I'm happy for myself that I put that together. Square peg goes into square hole, yeah, but I did it myself for once.

The second, actually. You're right here (well obv~) and it's usually a pretty good Towntell. TBH it's Vi's fault that that one is no longer really trustworthy when it comes to me.


Aaand there he goes. So, saul (res, not red, oops), let's be clear: you're saying that

not waffling on a RVS-born Townread

by post 39

is scummy?

Honestly?

Are you

seriously

going there?

Oh my.

So how come you gave me Townpoints for my Post 40, where I was clearly not waffling on Konowa? It doesn't matter that I explained it later and gave an explanation for it--you clearly gave me Townpoints for a not-waffling Townread on the post I first made it. So why is F-16's Townread on Tierce suspect, but Tierce's Equally Unwaffly Townread on Konowa is fine?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Tierce, do you disagree that there is scum on the wagon? It formed really quickly which makes me wary. Why aren't you suspicious of that? You have townreads on me and Konowa: neither of us are on the wagon. So, unless you are saying the scumteam is Xalxe/Empire/Saulres, there's got to be scum on this wagon - at least from your perspective.

[Tierce]

Speedwagons can also hit scum (I'd know; call me Apple Frittierce--or something--it's not really easy to make a joke out of that character name >.>). Speedwagons are also extremely easy to form in a game this size, so no, I am not particularly bothered by it. I see no point in trying to dissect the wagon for possibilities before there is a flip, as that is added work and much easier to do with

two

flips--Today's and Tonight's.

(With luck, I'm the one biting a bullet--less work for me overall~)