Micro 65: No Town Lynched (Game Over)

[Equinox]

Vote Count 2.03

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (1) - shos
Nachomamma8 (1) - Thor665
shos (1) - Nachomamma8

Not Voting (3) - F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Gregory, RedCoyote

With 6 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

The deadline is Friday, November 16, 2012, at 8:10 PM EST (UTC-5).

[shos]

ok I read about strawman. \in the first place you said it, I said that I was confscum in your eyes because I didn't back up my quichammer thought with ongoing games, and you corrected me with:
"The reason you went from leaning scum to confscum was because of the ongoing games thing. You know better. I was asking you to defend yourself with finished games because I figured you must have had some sort of experience with them because if you didn't, it would be unreasonable for you to have such a strong position on quickhammers automatically equaling scum." So that is really not quite strawmanning imo, but either way, quichammer does not make anyone automatically scum, but it IS a not-so-small scumtell imo. judging by F16's reaction to my pressure on this, I see no way how this quickhammer came from town. town had absolutely no reason to quickhammer like that, and considering that he indeed gave us no reason to do it either than

As I said, I had a gut feeling that Mykonian was scum.

and well, the fact I don't have any proven experience with this kind of play does not make me scum.

the second one with the strawmanning is where I asked if F16 considers nacho town because he has a townread on him. This was absed on this:

Okay, Nacho is town.
So far:
- He has a townread on me (terrible strategy to fake a townread on me as scum considering how suspicious I am of Thor.

which he really didn't elaborate much on. Then, after being prompted and questioned, he wrote:

- I don't think Nacho is town for the mere fact that he has a townread on me. I think he is town because he has a townread on me despite knowing that buddying me probably won't do him any good. Let's go through this step by step:

a) Thor says F-16 is town.
b) F-16 questions town read on him, and FOSses Thor and says Thor is scum.
c) Nacho says F-16 is town.

Why would Nacho do that as scum if he knew the likely response from me (question his read and call him scum)?

mmkay? I can keep quoting my response by you know you can read.

That is not strawmanning at all, that is misunderstanding. I would never have figured that he meant what he said in 139, lol; that seems awfully wrong and stupid imo. it's like saying that scum wouldn't say anything to not get flak about it. well scum have to say SOMETHING; they can say F16 is town - and get flak like thor, and they can say thor is scum - and get flak for sheeping. that argument is just stupid.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Shos is making me laugh out loud. I am not going to vote him but I am declaring intent to hammer Shos/Thor in the future if either reaches L-1. Let's look at it bit by bit:

Point 1)

Post 141, Shos misses the point that my townread on Nacho was unexpected and there is no way Nacho would have known that I would have a townread on him and so Nacho couldn't have buddied me with ulterior motives. Then he posts more stuff about "circular variable dependency" which I don't understand. I doubt anybody else understood it either making it pointless to respond.

Point 2

) The bigger issue to look at here is how Shos seems to have abandoned the idea of me being scum and is instead trying to address me as town and trying to convince me that Nacho could be scum!
Quotes like this;

I know this was directed at greg but, why wouldn't he fake a townread on you? buddying, towncred from you, other people are easier to hunt, etc etc.

If I am his scumread, why answer MY questions directed at Greg?

Point 3

) While simultaneously focussed on convincing Nacho that I am scum, he is focussed on convincing me that Nacho is scum. He can't seem to decide which way to go - and the sheer panic can be seen from him as two townies have townreads on each other with quotes like this demonstrating his panic:

@F16: I'm not following your line of thoughts. he has a townread on you, which makes him town? seriously? U MAD BRO?
how is ignoring thor's vote and attacking me a towntell?? deflecting much?

Both of the accuasations made in this post had already been addressed in my previous post and are in fact strawmen as I show in detail in point 5.

Point 4

) Shos on the defensive:

As I said, I had a gut feeling that Mykonian was scum.

and well, the fact I don't have any proven experience with this kind of play does not make me scum.

I thought he was trying to prove I was scum. All of a sudden, he is trying to justify his FOS on me saying that my playstyle is something he doesn't have experience with. So, basically he is saying "

hey, guys, that was unique play, don't blame me for FOSsing him

" as opposed to "

this is scumplay, F-16 is scum

." Seems more like trying to justify a mislynch on me than trying to pin scum.

Point 5)

Let's look at 151, the post right above.

the second one with the strawmanning is where I asked if F16 considers nacho town because he has a townread on him. This was based on this:

Okay, Nacho is town.
So far:
- He has a townread on me (terrible strategy to fake a townread on me as scum considering how suspicious I am of Thor.

which he really didn't elaborate much on

.

This is a lie. Please click on the link to post 137 above in the quote and see my elaboration - right there in that post.

Conclusion

I can only assume this panic from Shos is because their scumplan of Thor buddying me while Shos trying to lead a mislynch on me isn't working. I think Thor thought I would buddy him back and Shos could get town to mislynch me. Even if Shos goes next, Thor would look innocent at LYLO. Decent plan - but if all goes well and we lynch Shos and Thor, it will have failed spectacularly.

[shos]

fuck it, I'm not focused enough to respond to everything there. I'm kinda going all over myself here, I lost my train of thoughts in this game. you're not even voting anyone.

[Thor665]

@FF - why not vote one of us now, then? Stop derping.

Greg and Red Coyote should also vote.

[RedCoyote]

Vote: mykonian

that's forced as helllll.

Vote: Mykonian

L-1 on Myrk.
Trololololol.

One of these two players took advantage of mykonian's situation. Which one was it? I'll be reading the rest of the game with this in mind.

---

unvote

. we don't want no hammer on page 1.

shos is the first to back off. Thor continues to press on. This could go either way. I'm inclined to think shos is more likely trying to score points here though.

observation: nobody notices such a thing. nobody even does such things as mafia. seriously, only like supernewwwbs will think that saying 'i am town' , no matter how indirect the way of saying it is, helps.

But he didn't say "i am town". This is unnecessary exaggeration, I think.

---

By itself, I think the case is rather weak for a lynch.

Oh, dear. And you ended up hammering him?

Hope he flips scum.

You hope he flips scum, hm? How did you go from post 30 to post 38? I don't understand.

---

there were 5 people voting you, why am *I* the scum one?

Please. Knock it off with the "why me?" crap.

---

I can try to slow down for you if you need me to, but this isn't a Newbie and judging by your join date I have no idea why you're acting so shocked about the lynch.

This is a good point.

---

It seems to me like a scum-strategy to elicit reactions from the other townies. Call someone obv-town and hope that the others are flabbergasted enough to say "No! how is he obvtown? Vote F-16." This of course would allow you to distance from a lynch.

Despite all the WIFOM in this post, I actually like this point against Thor. It's well thought out.

---

A couple of possibilities for you here;

1. You are town and I am town - I have an accurate read, rejoice!
2. You are scum and I am town - Bwa-ha, you fooled me, rejoice!
3. You are town and I am scum - I have limited my ability to mislynch you later, rejoice!

So...?

Uh, no... This is a team game, Thor. Not an individual game. F16 is less concerned about how he does individually and more concerned about how his team does. So, I mean, just because your read happens to be accurate or not means precisely dick. It's how you arrived at that read that counts.

Scum can say a player is obvtown because they know the setup. Town can say a player is obvtown because of an argument. Are both players right? Technically yes, but they arrived to those conclusions for completely different reasons. This is just the kind of three card monte trick I'd expect from you as scum.

---

RedCoyote sort of reads town I guess?

Why? I haven't said anything of value. In fact, I've been lurking pretty hard comparitively (not intentionally, but if I were Nacho I would use that argument anyways).

---

There's also motivation for town to not hammer like this, and there's also motivation for scum TO hammer like this.

I think I agree with this. At least, I can reasonably see shos making this argument.

---

@Nach- Greg and FF are town reads for you, I'll go out on a limb that you think you are town. You don't even glance at me. Discuss.

This is correct.

---

reaaaaallly not getting how you're giving nacho a solid townread. terrible reasons.

you really shouldn't be using PoE this way. PoE is for finding scum, not town. if you don't have flips, that doesn't work.

I really, really, really like this point.

---

No way the Myk wagon was all town - I agree with this. I think Thor is the scum on the wagon and you are the scum off the wagon.

Do you necessarily think there has to be scum on and off the wagon? I agree there was at least one scum on the wagon, but I think two is just as likely.

---

of course if you can have nobody suspect oyu forever it's all good, but that never happens. the good strategy is to get people to see you as TOWN. being null isn't good enough, and you're speaking like a newbie

But is he speaking like scum?

[RedCoyote]

Okay, well, those were my notes taken as I read through the game. I've got a solid feel for the game now, and I'm pretty sure the scum are Thor & Nacho. If I'm wrong about one of them, substitute shos in.

F16 reads completely town. Not just the quickhammer, but the thoughtful way with which he's trying to make up for it. I was upset at first, but I found that his most recent posts are genuine. Greg's posts don't give off a calculating vibe to them. I also think he's being sufficiently hard on Thor and not sheeping his way through the game. Why either of these players aren't voting is suspect, but I'm going to overlook that with the hopes that their purposefully waiting on me to come in and participate. At the beginning of the game I was pretty sure that there was one scum between Thor and shos. Over time, especially with Thor's slight-of-hand trickery, I've become more convinced that Thor is the guilty party. His post 106 was probably the tipping point for me. It was written with a purposeful intent at oversimplifying a complex issue. It was done to manipulate F16 in a very casual, subtle way. That it didn't work on him is great. Nacho seems scummy for a couple of reasons. He's blatantly ignored Thor this game, and his read on me is suspect given that I haven't done anything. But, really, that was the connection. Thor is lightly pushing Nacho while keeping shos looking like the actual bad guy for F16, Greg, and me. He's probably setting it up to eventually and "reluctantly" coming off the Nacho wagon for lack of interest. BUT, should that plan not go through, and Nacho actually get lynched. Well, Thor is the prophet who called Nacho scum from the word go. Of course, he would prefer the former outcome (it's never fun to be the lone scum to fight through 3 days), but Thor is capable of doing either. The fact that Nacho is ignoring Thor tells me that I'm onto something.

I could potentially see a Thor-shos partnership, but I think that's less likely and more complicated. I don't see a Nacho-shos partnership. I think Nacho is pushing shos too hard. Greg is probably the wild card, but I'm going with some instinct here when I say that he comes off as town.

Vote: Thor665

[Equinox]

Nachomamma8 has been prodded.

[Thor665]

@Red - I like your individual points but you just claimed that you see it as a situation where Shos/Nacho would make any sense at all - and it doesn't.
You're also ignoring that I explained my "slight-of-hand" point quite fully, and for someone reading so much I'm confused why you didn't address that in making the case on me, because it should either weaken or strengthen your prime point - instead you duck it.

What am I missing on both of those?

[RedCoyote]

No, I was pretty clear that I didn't see Nacho-shos as partners.

I don't see a Nacho-shos partnership.

To your second point, I don't think you did. At least not in the way you're framing it. You went off into a tangent about shos' attempts to use ongoing games (which Nacho coincidentally picked up for you) in one instance. The only other time I see you mentioning it again is when Nacho parroted it back at you, to which you rightfully pointed out that it wouldn't apply from Nacho to you.

[Thor665]

I'm pretty sure the scum are Thor & Nacho. If I'm wrong about one of them, substitute shos in.

So really what you're saying is;

Scum is Thor/Nacho
or Thor/Shos
Or maybe Nacho and no Thor and no Shos.

[Thor665]

To your second point, I don't think you did. At least not in the way you're framing it.

Except I kinda did.

He is only cleared if Aru is town.
He is cleared because in a game like this - that's not a viable scum play to be the derp hammer, it's fine (and optimal) to be on the wagon, but the spotlight seat? Not so much.

[Thor665]

Heck, I explained it *before* I did the "slight-of-hand" So...yeah. Whassup?

[Nachomamma8]

I said that I was confscum in your eyes because I didn't back up my quichammer thought with ongoing games, and you corrected me with:

no. strawman 1 was here:

Spoiler: strawmannin that bitch

woah, a little leap you took there eh? so me not backing up my thought about the quickhammer with any finished games makes me confscum??? are you seriously that dense or is that just your way of pressuring people? XD dude, I'm not playing such an amazingly complex game in here like MoI or someone; I'm not such a vet on this site to have knowledge of dozens of games to quote for you.

which was you responding to this:

Your belief that quickhammers automatically equal scum is not something that can be backed up by your experience, so I think that you know better and tried to point me towards discussing ongoing games in order to shut down discussion.

If it's still a misunderstanding, tell me where I've been unclear so I can make it better for everyone else.

Why? I haven't said anything of value. In fact, I've been lurking pretty hard comparitively (not intentionally, but if I were Nacho I would use that argument anyways).

You hadn't really said anything of use, which is kind of a good thing when talking about townCoyote.

He's blatantly ignored Thor this game,

Yes, I am purposefully ignoring Thor right now. Why does this make me likelier scum? Do you tend to ignore strong players while you're scum?

[RedCoyote]

At this point, I think the possible scumteams, in order of likelihood, are:

Thor-Nacho
Thor-shos
Thor-Greg
Greg-Nacho
Greg-shos
Nacho-shos

So quit trying to take yourself out of the equation.

And you're misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about your read on F16. I'm talking about the way with which you presented it to F16. I mean, that's the whole point I was getting at.

Like, look, you're telling F16 that he should see you as town because either you have an accurate read on him, he fooled you into thinking you had an accurate read on him, or you "limited your ability to mislynch him". My problem with the way you set these scenarios up are that they don't take into account how you arrived at the townread. Yeah, you said why in post 73, but you're alluding to the idea that F16 should see you as town regardless based on his own self-interest rather than what's in his team's interest. F16 being right or wrong doesn't matter. I mean, it's nice and it'll help, but ultimately what matters is that his team succeeds. So you're coming at him, like, oh, one of three things is right, either we're both town, so don't worry about it, or you're scum that has me fooled, so don't worry about it, or I'm scum but it's helping you anyways so don't worry about it. It's that third scenario especially that is just so uber-slickster. That third outcome is just primo used car salesman Thor at work. You're basically saying that if you're scum and F16's town then you are still doing F16 a favor by calling him town. But, really, you're not. You're doing yourself a favor through trying to get F16 to shake your hand and acknowledge what a great deal he's getting in both of you calling one another town. He knows his alignment, but he doesn't know yours.

Anyways, that was probably one of the most confusing, rambling paragraphs I've ever had to write. Suffice it to say that you're putting on a cute little show for F16 to get him to call you town. You then proceed to vote Nacho while pushing shos as hard as you can. That's why you and Nacho as a team makes so much sense to me. You don't want Nacho to be lynched, but if he does, you're hedging your bets for plan B. Riding that "oh, I was so smart to foresee Nacho as scum and F16 as town that I am obvtown" train.

I hope this is making some sense, F16.

Yes, I am purposefully ignoring Thor right now. Why does this make me likelier scum? Do you tend to ignore strong players while you're scum?

Because I think Thor is scum. The second question is misleading, it depends on the circumstances. It always depends on the circumstances.

[Thor665]

At this point, I think the possible scumteams, in order of likelihood, are:

[snip of derp]

So quit trying to take yourself out of the equation.

1. I didn't
2. You're the one who presented the reads weirdly considering this clarification. Why did you do it that way if it wasn't what you meant at all?

And you're misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about your read on F16. I'm talking about the way with which you presented it to F16. I mean, that's the whole point I was getting at.

Like, look, you're telling F16 that he should see you as town because either you have an accurate read on him

Actually, if you go back and read what I said, i said he shouldn't care why I had the read on him.
You said it was because I was avoiding explaining that read though...when I already had (and, for the record, I already had explained it and then had that derp demanding I explain it...so, yeah, the snark was totally a scum plan)

Tell me more.

[RedCoyote]

Or maybe Nacho and no Thor and no Shos.

This is you trying to take yourself out of the equation. I made it very clear that I saw you and Nacho as my most likely scumteam, you and shos as my alternative, and Nacho and shos as the unlikely one. There are no other possible combinations. This isn't complicated.

You said it was because I was avoiding explaining that read though...

I didn't say it was because you were avoiding explaining that read. Again, you're oversimplifying. You were taking something complex and trying to use it to manipulate F16. You can sit there and say you don't care what he thinks of you, but that's just not accurate.

[Thor665]

1. Um...you did notice that in the previous scum pairings I listed for you that I featured quite prominently - what the heck? If that is me trying to take myself out of the equation then *you* tried to take me out of the equation with your last list because you also had slots not involving me...explain?

Also, you didn't answer why you used such gakked up language if it wasn't what you meant.

2. It wasn't because I was avoiding explaining the read.

It's how you arrived at that read that counts.

Scum can say a player is obvtown because they know the setup. Town can say a player is obvtown because of an argument. Are both players right? Technically yes, but

they arrived to those conclusions for completely different reasons

. This is just the kind of three card monte trick I'd expect from you as scum.

Tell me more.

[RedCoyote]

If that is me trying to take myself out of the equation then *you* tried to take me out of the equation with your last list because you also had slots not involving me...explain?

Those teams are in order of likelihood, and you're in the top three. I didn't use "gakked up language". I was very clear.

And there's nothing wrong with the latter issue. That's not why I'm getting on your case. It's because of the way you presented it to F16.

[Thor665]

1. I presented me as scum with Nacho 'first' as well, so I upheld your order...again, how did I try to fade out of the order by not including myself (or Shos) in a pairing you agree should not include either of us?

2. You started with saying it was because I hadn't explained my reasoning. When I pointed out I had explained my reasoning (even prior to my dodge) you changed the tune. Is that just me? Clarify your issue and also tell me how when you first brought it up you showed that this was your issue and I'll drop the whole thing.

[Thor665]

Oh, and yeah, your language was gakked up because you said Thor.Nacho with Shos if wrong about either - but really meant Thor/Nacho or Thor/Shos, or Nacho, but not with Shos or Thor. So, why say the initial thing where Shos was buddy with either if wrong about the other?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@ RedCoyote, I get what you are saying regarding Thor's post to me. He says that if he is scum, and I town, I should rejoice since he made it more difficult for himself to mislynch me. But that's not all there is to it since he doesn't account for the fact that if he were scum, part of my goal as town is to lynch him - not just rejoice.

Strong town-read on RedCoyote for his depth of analysis. Even stronger than my townread on Nacho. And based on RedCoyote's arguments I am leaning more towards Thor being scum than Shos although Shos is still my next suspect.

I still think the other scum is Shos because Thor argues with Shos while voting Nacho. Shos argues with Thor while voting me. It seems like they are distancing from each other while going after two different townies. That as a scum strategy makes more sense tome than voting your scumbuddy and arguing with a townie.

Also, I don't understand why Nacho wouldn't try to make me look suspicious if he was scum. He would know that a townie (Shos) is going after me, he can see that Greg is at least marginally suspicious of me. He wouldn't have known that RedCoyote had a townread on me since he made that post before RedCoyote's catch up post. It doesn't make sense that he would go for Shos. Add to that what I have been saying earlier about Nacho having no reason to believe that I would reciprocate his townread considering that I didn't for Thor.

In any case, I'd like to hear opinions from Nacho and Greg. If we are all agreed on Thor, it is a good idea to lynch him now and extrapolate his interactions with other players to see who is the most likely player to be on a scumteam with him.

VOTE: Thor

[Thor665]

@ RedCoyote, I get what you are saying regarding Thor's post to me. He says that if he is scum, and I town, I should rejoice since he made it more difficult for himself to mislynch me. But that's not all there is to it since he doesn't account for the fact that if he were scum, part of my goal as town is to lynch him - not just rejoice.

Which would hold true, if the question was you having a town read on me.
I was telling you I wouldn't justify a read on you - which is a totally different thing.

Why do you think Red Coyote looks town?

[shos]

@RC, 155:
If you actually read my posts in context you'd understand. the whole point in which I voted Myrk D1 was because he said that thor was indirectly saying 'i'm town' and only scum do that. NOW, read again post 26 and comment if you wish.

combo of posts 30 and 38 makes me even more suspicious against F16.

post 156 kinda made me feel wierd about thor. it's all stuff that *can* be looked at as town but, that's not enough. Can you explain to me, once again, why you have a town read on F16? you said 'not just the quickhammer' - so that implies that quickhammering actually is a towntell in your eyes? please elaborate.

in that whole thor-RC exchange, there's one point that really bugs me, is the combination of post 170(which is perfectly correct interpretation of RC) along with the scumteams presented in 164. that does not make sense, and he just put Gregory as a filler-extra-suspect immediately after calling him a wild card that feels town in 156.

I'm wishing to lynch either RC or F16 at the moment. there are two votes on thor, can you guys make a nice and well-built case on him? because it seems that you're just, you know, 'generally' finding him scum. that's a scum tactic in my book.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm good with a Thor lynch, but I do not want people to forget about shos. Here's a more condensed and inclusive case on him before I reread everyone else:

@thor: yes, I do that a hellovalot. practically every wagon that i'm on and reaches L-1 I leave. I'm seeing WAAAAY too many quickhammers in the last games. I think this is like the third in like two weeks.

wow this flip is taking long. I bet the mod didn't expect that so soon hehe.

ninja'd by Equi! lol! cmon cmon flip flip flip! (imagine it's like speech speech speech)

These two quotes don't make sense by one another if shos is town. If he's town, this is quickhammer #3 in a really short amount of time, and considering it's the thing he was trying to hard to avoid, you'd imagine that he'd be more upset. But instead he's like "TEEHEE WE GOT AN EARLY AS HELL QUICKHAMMER", which makes no fucking sense based on his unvote, his reaction to F-16 initially hammering (which was definitely scum posturing, by the way), and his post IMMEDIATELY BEFORE THIS ONE. It looks more like scum taunting because he got a free mislynch and feels pretty strongly that he has another one.

and ffs, go thorugh my meta. yes, he's scum because he quickhammered. have you ever quickhammered as town D1? those 'lately' are still ongoing so I can't talk about them.

This is scummy as fuck. He tries to make it seem like reading through his meta will prove that F-16 is obvscum because he quickhammered, which is a bunch of bullshit.

Then there's his tendency to strawman, which he tries to play off at not being anything because he doesn't even know what strawmanning is, then ends up telling his TOP
SCUM SUSPECT that he thinks it's all a "misunderstanding". He also has been all defense and no offense, with subtle moments of pushing suspicion onto lurkers (ISO #24, "PFFT FINALLY a post from gregor!! now all we need is RC to post and together they might get to the amount of posts by the mod! -_-"), and occasionally pushing suspicion onto me (F-16's already brought this up), but has not glanced in Thor's direction even though Thor was his second suspect due to PoE (which suggests he finds everyone but Falcon and Thor town, but I've only seen him questioning people for their townreads on me and Gregory & RedCoyote so far).