Mini 1390: Game Over

[Deltabacon]

scum pile:
Idiotking
Tommy
Jason Wazza

Cheery Dog

Radelle

He's a steaming pile of inconsistancies, and he is scum.

[absta101]

@Slandaar

Town Posting; But they could be buddies? na, with the amount of heat Radelle has; the very real possibilty she is lynched from her POV means it is very unlikely she defends a buddy so blatantly.

Why is post #186 a town post?
---
@Trollie

(2) for the last time I HAVE NEVER, EVER DECLARED A TOWN READ ON CHEERY next person to say I did this better quote a post of mine where i say anything of the "CD is town" variety (before you go wasting your time--ill give you a hint: i never said anything like that).

Town are more likely to remember their town reads than scum are IMO. This makes you look slightly scummy.
---
P-EDIT: I'm going to ISO trollie to see if his 180 on CD is warranted.

[toxictaipan]

What is your point? Even if I am wrong and Radelle is scum it wouldn't be because she is trying to shoot down your arguments against her as that is clearly completely neutral.

I like how you abandoned the Sable wagon when your super serious issue turned out to be not so serious as you hopped back onto Radelle at the earliest opportunity.

I wouldn't say it's completely neutral, it obviously benefits scum. Radelle doesn't get to ignore most of the content in my posts and then bug me about a single point I left unanswered. Scum shouldn't be given the opportunity to get away with a double standard like that. But enough about that. I see you completely ignored (no wonder you don't have a problem when Radelle does it) the conflict between Post 184 and Post 213 (highlighted at the top of Post 224 for your convenience). What is your opinion on that?

I didn't abandon my read on Sable Tip. Are you trying to suggest that reaction tests are scummy, and that it's scummy for me to move on when I find a better read? Are those the only two reasons you think I'm scum?

[toxictaipan]

I'm also confused why you're saying you didn't look at my scum meta because you didn't have to - yet you looked at my town meta, when you didn't have to do that either.
and the fact if you looked at my wiki, or all my games, you'll see that I don't actually have any scum meta..

Looks like you wanted to have me as a town read when I flipped town and looked at my last game to find reasons for me to be town, and now that you've been pressured you decided to rid yourself of calling me town by saying you're defending me only because the case against me is crap.

VOTE: thetrollie

He's been saying there was no good case against you since at least Post 162. That didn't just come out of nowhere. Do you have any other reasons for finding him scummy? You reasoning (and scum hunting) leaves much to be desired. I feel like you don't even believe yourself half the time when you vote.

I remember you saying you had a slight suspicion of Radelle early in the game. You haven't really pursued Radelle at all, though. Is it fair to say you have a town read on Radelle? If so, what are the main flaws you see in the case against her? Does anyone currently voting for Radelle strike you as scummy (and why)? What about the case against Abaddon? How do you feel about the other arguments against TheTrollie?

You're looking at a lot of little things and putting too much stock into them. We've got a much bigger picture to deal with here. I don't know where you really stand on some of the bigger issues that have taken place in the game.

[Tommy]

Not liking the campaign against TheTrollie at all. I'd happily lynch Deltabacon for quoting Trollie out of context and for what I think might be a case of deliberately goading him.

Probably won't be able to post for about 48 hours from now - sorry.

[Deltabacon]

I quoted him out of context? Hmm. Let's see about how he's painted Cheery as town, then as scum, then defended him against attack, then said that he never said he was town.

Here, in 140, he is painting Cheery as Scum: Post 140

And here, in 160, he clearly starts a case on Cheery, with the inferance that he's scum. He says he gets a scumread off of him, but is disinclined to pursue it fully because : Post 160

Then, in 162 he suddenly changes his tune and says that Cheery is town because of meta, without actually stating that Cheery is town. This continues for a number of posts where me and him go back-and-forth, then in 266, he says

I HAVE NEVER, EVER DECLARED A TOWN READ ON CHEERY

.

Oh, wait. Let me just link you to his 55. He totally didn't state he was town here, except he did.

Moving on, he also puts a vote on Radelle, without any justification, indeed without even talking about Radelle for a whole three pages in advance of the vote, and brushes off any attempts to ask him for his reasoning behind this read by saying he's explained all the important ones. Has no-one else noticed the way he still hasn't justified it? His vote is on Radelle, but he's then pushed on Jacob. He says he's explained all the important ones, then critisies Absta for saying JacobSavage's spreadsheet is not relevant. However, he's being oh-so-very hypocritical here in that he says:

you dont see how being able to understand and talk about a players reads is relevant?

The implication is that you do see how it's relevant, you're just refusing to explain why you're voting for Radelle. Is it not important enough?

[Deltabacon]

EBWOP for the 160 analysis:

- but he is disinclined to pursue it fully because he has made mistakes in other games. This looks overly cautious, and he seems to try and make Cheery out to be bad-playing town as opposed to scum.

[Cheery Dog]

He's been saying there was no good case against you since at least Post 162. That didn't just come out of nowhere. Do you have any other reasons for finding him scummy? You reasoning (and scum hunting) leaves much to be desired. I feel like you don't even believe yourself half the time when you vote.

I never said it came out of nowhere, that is the post where I think he was looking for reasons for me to be town, although the safe for now comment at the end of that can be seen as how trollie is saying it was that the case on me was bad, it can also been seen how delta is saying that it's him having a town-read on me.
When people defend me more than I've actually defended myself, it comes across as suspicious as if they want to keep me alive until LYLO and pull a switch on.
Other than that it's just so much more activity than thetrollie I've played with before where he was town. (although I personally don't think this is a good reason)

I remember you saying you had a slight suspicion of Radelle early in the game. You haven't really pursued Radelle at all, though. Is it fair to say you have a town read on Radelle? If so, what are the main flaws you see in the case against her? Does anyone currently voting for Radelle strike you as scummy (and why)? What about the case against Abaddon? How do you feel about the other arguments against TheTrollie?

I believe Radelle's defences have been good, so yes it is safe to say I have a town read on them now. As for the people voting them, I'm not sure about sherlock yet, however I believe you are still town, trollie is scum for above reasons and minor scumminess from abaddon, although the case against him doesn't really do much to convince me of his scumminess - actually I had him as possible partners with parama last I looked closely at him, I guess since my main reason for him edged on that, he is back to null since I believe absta is town.

What other arguments are actually against thetrollie? I thought it was all to do with the defence of me.

You're looking at a lot of little things and putting too much stock into them. We've got a much bigger picture to deal with here. I don't know where you really stand on some of the bigger issues that have taken place in the game.

I'm unable to look a the big picture until I'm fully emerged myself into the game by looking at the little things, which I now believe I have, if I'm not talking about other big things, it's because I don't believe they are actually that big, or my opinion has been said by someone else and it's not big enough to have posted the same thing twice.

[TheTrollie]

ok, CD that doesn't count cause I was talking about something directly related to my argument against ur lynch. but, yes, ok. I at least feel like an idiot now.

there is no 180, i called CD and abb town based on their quarrel, then 5 pages later I said he was in my scum pile, then later than that I explicitly stated that my scum read on him was misguided and have been arguing against others making the same misguided claims since then

[TheTrollie]

You're looking at a lot of little things and putting too much stock into them. We've got a much bigger picture to deal with here. I don't know where you really stand on some of the bigger issues that have taken place in the game

yes, this is a spot-on description of CDs play

[TheTrollie]

@tommy, Delta is confused, but town. Hes vastly misunderstanding every post i make but he is too determined to get me to be scum.

although, i could see a case made that delta's just tunneling me. So maybe he is scum. If you have a case Ill hear it but i dont really see the case so hes town till then

[TheTrollie]

I'm out of town right now but i will make due on my promise

[Idiotking]

---

@Idiotking

Radelle seems town for Post #81 and #105 where she shows that she's checked Parama's "recent posts". Going this far to get someone to contribute without calling them scummy makes little sense from scum's perspective, especially considering Parama is an easy place to keep your vote. Do you agree?

I'll buy that. The only thing I could think of is if scum were trying to wake their buddies up and get them to post more, but then I realized that would be stupid.

@idiot: Radelle was always on my scum list and an ISO gave me more confidence in that read. Here is a cut&paste copy of the notes I made leading up to the list of reads you keep asking me about:

Spoiler: notes

Abaddon - slight town
Toxictaipan - null
Idiotking - slight scum
Parama - town
Deltabacon - null
Tommy - scummy
JasonWazza - nullscum
Sable Tip - slight town, bad reaction to toxic
Radelle - scum overjfication
Cheery Dog - dumb
Jacob Savage - oye
Slandaar

I'm not withholding reasons btw, I am just trying to use my mafia time most efficiently. If i had the time to ISO everyone and make full cases I would, but since I don't I am focusing on those who I have the most to say about.

You never made any argument against Radelle before voting for her. I refuse to believe that you are so busy that you have time to read the thread and make votes, but not enough time to explain them. The "stating reads without explanation" is bad, but not voteworthy. You outright voted without an explanation, and that's way worse.

I agree with Deltabacon, Trollie has been utterly inconsistent with his statements concerning CD, switching from wishy-washy scumreads to meta-defense, which is just bad to do for someone else unless you've got a damn good reason (like you know he's a power role or something). That, plus his reasonless vote on Radelle, means he is far and away the scummiest player.

[toxictaipan]

@Cheery Dog:

I didn't want a read list of all the players voting for Radelle. I'm trying to get you to analyze the game and look at it from a higher level. There is absolutely no reason you need to scrutinize every miniscule detail before you start analyzing the game and scum hunting. Your votes for Abaddon and Parama were little more than temporary throwaway votes because your reasons for voting were not founded in good logic and reasoning. And I feel your vote for TheTrollie is going to end up the same way because, while you may agree with the case against him (for now), your given reasoning doesn't seem any more coherent than that of any of your other votes. When you vote it seems like you're trying to justify your vote rather than explain why something is scummy.

What makes you say Radelle's defenses have been good? Do you see any flaws in the case against her? Elaborate.

When I was asking you about the other arguments against TheTrollie, I was asking you to analyze the cases the other players have made. While you may agree with their arguments on a fundamental level, do you think they are arguing their points well? Do you see any inconsistencies in

their

arguments that make you question the validity of those arguments?

Et cetera

,

et cetera

.

[Deltabacon]

Trollie, since nobody knows your views on Radelle, would you care to share? I'd also like to know what your actual read is on Cheery, given that you 'don't have a townread' on him.

[Slandaar]

I wouldn't say it's completely neutral, it obviously benefits scum.

Yes I didn't say it doesn't however my point was it benefits town just as much as scum ergo it is completely alignment neutral.

Radelle doesn't get to ignore most of the content in my posts and then bug me about a single point I left unanswered. Scum shouldn't be given the opportunity to get away with a double standard like that. But enough about that. I see you completely ignored (no wonder you don't have a problem when Radelle does it) the conflict between Post 184 and Post 213 (highlighted at the top of Post 224 for your convenience). What is your opinion on that?

I didn't abandon my read on Sable Tip. Are you trying to suggest that reaction tests are scummy, and that it's scummy for me to move on when I find a better read? Are those the only two reasons you think I'm scum?

OK so this conflict is some huge deal that you didn't write about in your 224 where you highlighted it?

I didn't have a clue what the conflict was; lets look at it;
Radelle says: you have not even called me scummy!
Toxic: sure I have I used words like fishy etc!
Radelle: Wow thats a lot of words to say I am scummy

What conflict Toxic? it makes perfect sense in context.

Anyways;

V/LA till Monday

[TheTrollie]

@Jacob

: A few things.

1) When you make your notes, are they for yourself or others?
2) Could you link to the game where you used the spreadsheets and got lynched?
3) I don't know if you've realized, but your vote is on Abaddon. Do you mean to have it on Cheery?

@Tommy

:

I think Abaddon and Radelle are town, and that Radelle is caught up in an angry OMGUS campaign. I could have sworn I caught Radelle sheeping me a while back, and I don't think he/she would do that as scum. But I didn't make a note and I can't find it now, so we'll have to call my position on Radelle a gut read. At deadline, I'd rather kill Radelle than nobody.

I haven't ever sheeped you this game.

Also, in no sense of the word is the conversation and votes between Abaddon, Toxic, and I some sort of OMGUS campaign in any sense of that word or what has actually taken place in this thread. The thing that strikes me here, is you saying you would rather kill me than nobody at deadline. You're already assuming that your BW and case on Parama won't fly, but you seem more sure that the badonwagon on me will.

Why is that? Who are some other scum reads?

Radelle:
- overjustification
- picking easy fights
- too cautious

I am going to take a look at ppl who have kinda slid under my radar tonight. I think this thread needs a new lead.

[TheTrollie]

^didnt mean to quote that post

[TheTrollie]

and cheery is null

[absta101]

@Cheery

VOTE: Cheery

When people defend me more than I've actually defended myself, it comes across as suspicious as if they want to keep me alive until LYLO and pull a switch on.

Do you have any games where this has happened to you before?

Other than that it's just so much more activity than thetrollie I've played with before where he was town.

Do you have anymore reasons for thinking he's scum or is this it?

---

@Idiot

- Can you replace out please. Your low activity and contributions are hurting us.

[_Sherlock_]

Sorry for not posting in a while. I'll try to add something new soon.

Is there anything that anyone would like me to address specifically?

[kwll]

wow...lots of content...I will be making a wall of quotes and my reads on everyone...how do you format it?

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery

VOTE: Cheery

When people defend me more than I've actually defended myself, it comes across as suspicious as if they want to keep me alive until LYLO and pull a switch on.

Do you have any games where this has happened to you before?

Other than that it's just so much more activity than thetrollie I've played with before where he was town.

Do you have anymore reasons for thinking he's scum or is this it?

No, but unless it's been proven that people that don't even have town reads on me are also town when they're defending me heavily, I'm going to believe that they must be scum and wanting to keep me alive to switch with in LYLO.

If I had more reasons I would have given them with that post

[Abaddon]

I'm really disliking a lot of what Trollie's had to say lately. It's coming off as really disingenuous. The two-faced hedging about CD (particularly 266) and the blithe manner in which he takes things that are not conclusive and makes definitive statements about them (such and such makes this person Town or scum, 283 & 285 contain good examples).

Unvote
Vote: Trollie

[absta101]

No, but unless it's been proven that people that don't even have town reads on me are also town when they're defending me heavily, I'm going to believe that they must be scum and wanting to keep me alive to switch with in LYLO.

I don't fully understand what you're saying here. Unless it's proven that Trollie is town, you think he's scum?

That's a really bad reason to want someone dead. Explain yourself.