Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Cerulean]

Counter question, if by 'suggests' he means 'We have yet to have done anything to make the read legit' why even mention it at all?

Because it was on his mind? I don't know. Some people are more transparent and show their work more than others, and the piggy situation was the one thing that we had really discussed.

I thought it was a stupid question? If you think you're town and scum game are indistinguishable its leading and u productive. You're trying to jump on someone, howl and whine. That's obvious. I want you to stop doing it because it doesn't help town.

I don't know how else to explain to you that it's not an attack to howl and whine (because, let's be honest, I'd admit it if all I wanted to do was make the other player feel derp) but rather a question to seek motivation.
Why is this so hard for you?
Why can you understand other motivation questions but not this one?

Well I know. You'd be calling it derp derp derp until smurfette knocked on your door, but it didn't look to me like a motivation question.

It's not hard for me to understand at all, and I didn't mean to derail your conversation with piggy, but I was trying to understand your motivation for a question which didn't seem like it would have a useful conversation given that I don't think (and you don't either) that your scum and town games are all that different.

So, your ego is fractured? You may not remember but you've fooled me before. I read you town as hell when you replaced into experimental; I don't easily forget being duped. I'm reading you different enough that you're leaning town, but most town...he'll no.

So I'm a lesser town read than N because, even though I'm doing more townish things I concern you more?

OBVIOUSLY!!!

you have two scummies

. Why does it matter that you're not gold star town in my eyes? Especially when I've said more than once that I don't think your town and scum game is all that different and you've fooled me as scum before? (if I'm right here, there is a slight difference I've noted). But it doesn't matter if you've done more townish things when you say, essentially, you'd do these things as scum. I'm not ready to lynch you over it, but I'm going to be a little extra cautious considering I've been duped before and all.

I realize that you like being sheeped...take off your Sheeping blinders and tell me what you think of their case.

You've asked me this before.
I LIKE THE BULK OF THE CASE.
Does it sink through now?

I know you liked the case. I wanted to know what about it made you like it. I wanted a little more detail.

~tammy

[Cerulean]

Hurm. Looking over stuff Cerulean is actually obv. town unless Piggy is scum.
Cerulean can still answer my questions though because the slot strikes me as pedantic and it will amuse me.

Pedantic? PFFT. I'm not sure if i prefer being thought of as pedantic or an overbearing, crazy bitch.

[callforjudgement]

Vote Count

• PiggyGal15 (3)
  : Voidedmafia N Sixty
  
• Voidedmafia (2)
  : Thor665 absta101
  
• Sixty (1)
  : Cerulean
  
• JesseSheffield (1)
  : PiggyGal15
  
• absta101 (1)
  : Equinox
  
• Not voting:
  JesseSheffield Soul2277

Deadline: Sun 25 Nov, 00:05 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2012-11-25 00:05:00)

)

With 10 alive it is 6 to lynch.

[Thor665]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall here.

Well I know. You'd be calling it derp derp derp until smurfette knocked on your door, but it didn't look to me like a motivation question.

It's not hard for me to understand at all, and I didn't mean to derail your conversation with piggy, but I was trying to understand your motivation for a question which didn't seem like it would have a useful conversation given that I don't think (and you don't either) that your scum and town games are all that different.

1. I've even flat out explained the motivation behind the question.
2. I've also flat out explained how whether or not I think there's a difference in my meta doesn't change the purpose of the question.
3. Get your other head to look at it, if they can't grok it either then I'll bother to explain it again.

I know you liked the case. I wanted to know what about it made you like it. I wanted a little more detail.

I'll try again.
I said the case was a sheep of mine for the most part and that I liked it. I'm not sure how much clearer I can get then by saying I felt the case was sheepy to where I was going...I mean, that's a pretty intense call.
For anything else you better ask a more pointed and specific question.

I don't think I've ever called you overbearing.
You're assuredly pedantic.

[JesseSheffield]

Thor: That's more of a commentary on the style of play he's exhibiting, which ties into why I think he's clueless.

Vote: Cerulean

Wondering if Cerulean will actually respond now...

[Cerulean]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall here.

Well I know. You'd be calling it derp derp derp until smurfette knocked on your door, but it didn't look to me like a motivation question.

It's not hard for me to understand at all, and I didn't mean to derail your conversation with piggy, but I was trying to understand your motivation for a question which didn't seem like it would have a useful conversation given that I don't think (and you don't either) that your scum and town games are all that different.

1. I've even flat out explained the motivation behind the question.
2. I've also flat out explained how whether or not I think there's a difference in my meta doesn't change the purpose of the question.
3. Get your other head to look at it, if they can't grok it either then I'll bother to explain it again.

So, you have...my bad

I know you liked the case. I wanted to know what about it made you like it. I wanted a little more detail.

I'll try again.
I said the case was a sheep of mine for the most part and that I liked it. I'm not sure how much clearer I can get then by saying I felt the case was sheepy to where I was going...I mean, that's a pretty intense call.
For anything else you better ask a more pointed and specific question.

I don't think I've ever called you overbearing.
You're assuredly pedantic.

Bleh...I don't like the case. I think it reads intensely shallow, but I'm going to comment on it specifically in a bit, and I wanted you to say something more than "seems cool Brainy smurf". As I was trying to round out my read on you as well.

No you havent called me overbearing, someone's whose posts you'll fall asleep while reading, but not overbearing. Though I have been called overbearing. I was just determining what matter of insult I preferred.

What is the newcomer going on about?

[Thor665]

@Jesse - I grok that this looked like a playstyle thing - that's what confusing me.
Why would someone using a playstyle you describe as of questionable scumhunting merit help prove that they don't know people's alignments?

@Cerulean - of course the case is shallow, it's built off RVS, how magical and deep can it really get? What does it being shallow have to do with anything? The question is whether or not it makes sense and shows scumhunting motivation from Sixty and scummy motivation from Piggy.

[Soul2277]

just came out of a

rational

mafiascum player's mouth. Give me some good reasoning behind that or I'm just going to assume you're not.

You arguing with someone I think is town is likely for you to suspect them unless you change your mind. I'll want you to change your mind since lynching a town read I don't want.

Anyways I've argued near identical things before:

I think he's town. I'm going to defend him.

That's one quick example.

@Thor specify where you said why you brought it up only on him. I do want to know have you ever played with town piggy or town absta (if no then I think I understand). My focus was just understanding why you asked on voided (os dealing with his meta still being what will be done later).

~Mehdi

[Cerulean]

P-edit: It's a secondary reason for absta. Do you think both scum bussing is likely in a white flag set up (well with the extra black rules).

Not to me, I don't think, but I'd wager that its still likely that scum would bus. If there are people who have a history of hard bussing in the 5p Vengefuls, I think its entirely possible they'd do the same in this game since Lylo is basically like a vengeful where both scum are the GF.
."

Who do you think is bussing right now?

[Cerulean]

I'm not confident in my Voided read at all. I've been so wrong about him before.

How do you go from being not confident to being confident enough to vote him by his 5th post in ISo a few posts later?

[JesseSheffield]

What is the newcomer going on about?

I see you're going to be fun to play with. Although I can't possibly understand the superiority complex you seem to have taken upon yourself given your play so far in this game.

@Jesse - I grok that this looked like a playstyle thing - that's what confusing me.
Why would someone using a playstyle you describe as of questionable scumhunting merit help prove that they don't know people's alignments?

I'm not really interested in how much merit someone's scum hunting ability holds. I'm much more interested in why they're going about using that method.

just came out of a

rational

mafiascum player's mouth. Give me some good reasoning behind that or I'm just going to assume you're not.

You arguing with someone I think is town is likely for you to suspect them unless you change your mind. I'll want you to change your mind since lynching a town read I don't want.

Anyways I've argued near identical things before:

I think he's town. I'm going to defend him.

Defending and answering questions on someone's behalf are way different. I'm getting the impression you're way more intelligent than to not believe that. Either way, I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it again because it could lead to much more interesting things than the crap we just slogged through.

[Cerulean]

Oh okay, I now understand Thor's line of questioning with soul.

[Soul2277]

The logic behind the two for doing so is the same (and while different can you not see how the reasoning can apply to both). I can quote something that says I think answering questions is fine (I'd rather not dig through games to find that specific point). Anyways it's primarily when the question felt useless when I read it.

Jesse what do you think of people you haven't interacted with much yet?

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

Oh and N where exactly are you (along with opinions on the current game state)? You post nicely at the start and then disappear quickly when I know you've been online after that.

~Mehdi

[Cerulean]

Hey voided - I know you don't want your rep to be writes tons of walls or spam responses, but your responses to things are falling pretty flat. Like you're not really engaged but are trying to keep busy.

[Cerulean]

Let's lynch Absta or Voided.

Or Sixty!

[JesseSheffield]

Hey voided - I know you don't want your rep to be writes tons of walls or spam responses, but your responses to things are falling pretty flat. Like you're not really engaged but are trying to keep busy.

That's ironic.

Potential wall in response to Soul is approaching...

[Cerulean]

I don't really care for the argument between Cerulean and Thor665, as it looks more to be out of ego than alignment.

Noting this for now.

You should! I'm sure it will be useful for the future.

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

Liked how Thor665 pressured PiggyGal15 earlier. There's also some notion about Thor665 maybe not getting into an ego war because why take offense at someone doing something silly when it doesn't concern him and those posts didn't come off contrived, but I think I need to verify that I'm not doing bogus psychoanalysis first.

Cerulean why didn't you respond to this answer to your question?

Oh gosh! I forgot my manners. Thank you equinox for answering my question.

Why are you asking me this question? Did you think it needed further probing? Did you not think the answer to the question was sufficient? Did you not understand the motivation for the question? Help me out here.

Why aren't you asking better questions? And why in this entire wall post did you not mention anything about sixty?

[Cerulean]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jesse
That post was just... horrid. Really really horrid. So there's 7 pages now, and all you're doing is reiterating what's already been said, just phrased slightly differently?
Love how you bring up me talking about RVS out of RVS almost double the posts later - while we've been out of RVS for quite some time. Very very interesting indeed.

That whole post looks like you're trying to be active while not really doing anything at all.

p-edit - the fact that you're still not saying what's worth noting in that quote just makes me all the more sure you just posted that to make yourself look busy and active.

This post owns.

[Cerulean]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jesse
That post was just... horrid. Really really horrid. So there's 7 pages now, and all you're doing is reiterating what's already been said, just phrased slightly differently?
Love how you bring up me talking about RVS out of RVS almost double the posts later - while we've been out of RVS for quite some time. Very very interesting indeed.

That whole post looks like you're trying to be active while not really doing anything at all.

p-edit - the fact that you're still not saying what's worth noting in that quote just makes me all the more sure you just posted that to make yourself look busy and active.

Actually they were pretty specific questions that I'd love to get the answer to. And I just had to point out how disingenuous you were being about wanting to get out of RVS so bad and trying to get out of it and never look back. As for me, I don't care either way. Active lurking blah blah blah... like three posts into this game. Chill.

She didn't accuse you of active lurking. She accused you of trying to appear active while actually contributing nothing of importance. There's a difference.

Equinox - why are you townreading Thor?

One other question to ceru being why argue so much with thor who's a town lean like that?

Thors a lean town read. I get my best reads from interaction, and thors fooled me before. I'm leaning town on him, but we can argue to make sure. Besides once he realizes we're town, if he's town as I think, it will make it that much easier for town to work together and win.

I think that answers her own question fine.

Okay that's pretty much what I thought, you didn't really follow that.

In post 120 Cerulean asked Equinox why he had a town read on Thor, when really he said:

I don't really care for the argument between Cerulean and Thor665, as it looks more to be out of ego than alignment. The Empire head sounds like town; I might dig deeper to see if he has any scum games, but his posts so far are reminiscent of Micro 53, which is good. Thor665 might be town, but take that with a grain of salt. Actually, now that I think about it, it might be worth a look to see if Thor665 gets into ego wars as scum. Agree that N's probably town.

which
1. Is a null read not a town read.
2. Is a really good way of throwing in his opinion that the Cerulean/Thor argument is town/town without explicitly saying so. And which is a really good way of covering a scum buddy's back when they're getting attacked without explicitly doing it. And which is a really good way of going back and saying oh hey we weren't buddies because I just said he sooounds like town, not that he is town... without explicitly stating that.

So then Equinox answered Cerulean's inquiry about why he had a town read on Thor, but Cerulean never acknowledged Equinox's explanation (even though he specifically probed for it). Which in my opinion is a great way of prodding a scum buddy to maybe explain something a little bit that they think they might be missing or looking bad on. And not answering that commentary is a good way of getting it out there and dropping it without buddying up. Considering its about Thor, who in my opinion is pretty much the "lead town" player, it would be great for both Cerulean and Equinox if they were scum to look and get that player on their side. Or at least not against them. And also considering Cerulean's been doing quite a bit of playing nice with Thor.

Wow...are you a runner? Cuz if you are, you can probably run twice your normal distance after that stretch.

Also, when I'm playing nice with someone they don't usually call me pedantic.

I feel like there's a buzzword for what you're doing here whatisitcalled? Whatisitcalled? Whatisitcalled?

Also, have you comments on sixty Yet? If not, why not?

[PiggyGal15]

So, after all that, (thank you Cere for answering zat point about Jesse not being active lurking, but rather just being active),
a) What is everyone's read on him?
b) why are there no other Jesse votes?

Cere and Soul are still townie town town, and just keep looking more town. (ftr Thor's still scummy)

[Sixty]

Still, this quoted bit - kind of a reach, isn't it?

In the sense of scumPig twirling her mustache and hatching an evil plot to

bring out the comfy chair

in the early pages, yes. In terms of showing it as a facile excuse for her actions, no.

If you'd just called it a bad excuse I'd be more on a wavelength with you.
But you said 'why would scum want people to feel comfortable' which means you *were* applying the mustache twirl to her.
Discuss.

I'm pretty sure it was "why would Town want people to feel comfortable", which means it's useless at best and transparently false at worst.

Assuming you were scumhunting.

1)

Why would scum move from Piggy to absta?

2)

What made you suspect scum were on Piggy's waggon?

3)

What do the results of your 'investigation' tell you?

1) A chance to look active and push a counterwagon for <reason to be read into>.
2) Answering your question as posed, sheer probability suggests itself. Disregarding what specifically you asked, we wanted to see who would jump and why, not specifically drain votes from PiggyGal.
3) The mod PMd us with a Guilty, but we might be Insane, so etc. Looking at the thread, it more or less didn't get acknowledged - Thor didn't say a word, Voidedmafia and PiggyGal mentioned absta but didn't do anything, Cerulean didn't try to tubthump on the wagon, thus frankly as far as reactions go nothing happened.

That is the point on absta. Do I have to explain how similar play in two games with one being town and then attacking him for an aspect in a previous town game is bad? Honestly haven't read or experienced his scum play

but when the argument is on something he's done as town and that the way he did this game to get a town read quickly look town

I'll think of him as town.

Run that last part by us again.

By the by, please stop disgracing metamancy as a science with posts like 182.

Bleh...I don't like the case. I think it reads intensely shallow, but I'm going to comment on it specifically in a bit, and I wanted you to say something more than "seems cool Brainy smurf". As I was trying to round out my read on you as well.

This we

must

see. ...eventually, after you’re done stirring up enmity

ponies

.

2. Is a really good way of throwing in his opinion that the Cerulean/Thor argument is town/town without explicitly saying so. And which is a really good way of covering a scum buddy's back when they're getting attacked without explicitly doing it. And which is a really good way of going back and saying oh hey we weren't buddies because I just said he sooounds like town, not that he is town... without explicitly stating that.

So then Equinox answered Cerulean's inquiry about why he had a town read on Thor, but Cerulean never acknowledged Equinox's explanation (even though he specifically probed for it). Which in my opinion is a great way of prodding a scum buddy to maybe explain something a little bit that they think they might be missing or looking bad on. And not answering that commentary is a good way of getting it out there and dropping it without buddying up. Considering its about Thor, who in my opinion is pretty much the "lead town" player, it would be great for both Cerulean and Equinox if they were scum to look and get that player on their side. Or at least not against them. And also considering Cerulean's been doing quite a bit of playing nice with Thor.

Are you entertaining the notion that this happened?

JesseShef, where precisely are you getting the notion that absta is clueless

and

Town?

I'm not sure if i prefer being thought of as pedantic or an overbearing, crazy bitch.

Hey, we

resemble

that remark.

[Soul2277]

Run that last part by us again.

By the by, please stop disgracing metamancy as a science with posts like 182.

He's being called scummy for the way he intentionally just tried to do something and get reads. It reminds of me of his town play in artemis fowl where he tended to change reads a lot and the same tone and post style (particularly concise posting) which again I can best describe as just acting.

And sure if I'm disgracing metamancy why don't you wow me with your meta powers and bother to explain piggy's meta more. Explaining it in rudex mafia is nice, but we're not playing that game and this is a different set of piggy posts.

Sixty you also seem to agree absta is clueless (which since it got him a read is debatable), but if you can see him as clueless and he's already explained clueless --> town do you want him to repeat himself?

Piggy a. I'm not voting anyone til OS appears, and b. I don't suspect jesse. I don't think having fairly contrary reads, actually pushing them, and having an interesting path of logic with that question to ceru are scummy.

I will say the most interesting bit of association is the number of people who can just ignore sixty without being pushed to comment on them.

~Mehdi

[Cerulean]

Thor: That's more of a commentary on the style of play he's exhibiting, which ties into why I think he's clueless.

Vote: Cerulean

Wondering if Cerulean will actually respond now...

Probably not until the point in time of the game that I get to your question.

[Cerulean]

@Cerulean - of course the case is shallow, it's built off RVS, how magical and deep can it really get? What does it being shallow have to do with anything? The question is whether or not it makes sense and shows scumhunting motivation from Sixty and scummy motivation from Piggy.

Shallow means I don't think they were actually assessing piggy's motivations. Why would you build a case so son out of rvs without actually trying to determine alignment? Cases make sense all the time, but the case doesn't show Scumhunting motivation from my point of view, rather it shows determination to appear as if scumhunting.