Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Voidedmafia]

Absta: Scum
Cerulean: Town
Equi/Justin: Town
Jesse: Town
N: Null/needs replacement
Piggy: Scum
Sixty: Scum
Soul: Town enough (not entirely certain on this one, blame my lack of caring in the first 8 or so pages)
Thor: I don't even fucking know, apparantly. So let's just stick him as null.

[Justin Timberlake]

Piggy's Canadian though. They've got no sense of humour.

[Voidedmafia]

Even so, it reeks of scum desperately searching for an easy townread on them and then taking the first chance she can get. The fact that it was a joke makes you look slightly better and incriminates her more, IMO. If it was serious, I would've wondered if there was something else behind it.

[Voidedmafia]

I also believe now that, if Sixty flips scum, her case on Piggy was possibly bussing, though it looks like it worked with mixed results.

[Cerulean]

I thought about that possibility too given that Tierce bussed Shinori in a similar fashion in Abarat 2 but we'll see. At any rate, speedlynch the puppy tomorrow and we'll figure out what to do from there.

~Empire.

[Sixty]

Sorry to disappoint, but that wasn't a scum claim in any way. We think we have this game under control and feel comfortable to lynch everyone who isn't part of the set.


Cerulean are obvTown; Empire was painfully different from this in Mafia in Triplicate, and the fact that Empire kept posting here while ignoring that game is already a marked difference, but I couldn't bring that up while that game was ongoing. Vi thought his "I'm doing meta research post Townish" because not many go to that effort as scum, and that was why this puppyhalf made the question about meta research in Post 288. In Mafia in Triplicate, he was more than willing to dump the effort on researching meta on me (who was an Innocent Child), without bothering to do it himself, and had a few "clairvoyant scum reads" (Namely that "lol, Tierce wouldn't be as elusive as scum, guys" one.) Empire's "I'm lazy as scum" meta is accurate.

“1) PiggyGal's description of her own meta is false. Meta was one of the main tools we used to read her as scum in xudeR aifaM esreveR. This might be obliviousness to her own meta, but we have trouble believing she really thinks her Town/scum meta is indistinguishable when she just came out of a game where she was pinned accurately as scum on meta.”

Not only is this a bad argument, it is a complete fucking lie. Take a look at Sixty’s ISO in Reverse Mafia Redux and do a CTRL + F search “Piggy”. You will eventually realize that their only mention of Piggy’s meta is in #383 where they acknowledge that PiggyGal isn’t competent as either alignment. Note that their first major case on Piggy comes in at #348, several pages into the game. SHE WAS NAILED AS SCUM ALMOST ENTIRELY FROM HER ACTIONS IN GAME – LITTLE TO NO META DISCUSSION. THEIR ONLY MENTION OF META HERE IS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT THAT SHE IS “INCOMPETENT” AS BOTH ALIGNMENTS. WHY DID THEY THEN EXPECT SO MUCH MORE FROM HER IN THE EARLY PORTION OF THIS GAME?

This is false, though we cannot prove it without presenting IM records from Reverse. You'll see Vi described our meta analysis of Piggy as "we in the

puppymind

". We were analyzing Piggy's site presence and meta throughout a number of games, ongoing and finished (Dirty Dealing was one of them), but we did not bring it up much in the thread for reasons that included Vi not liking to discuss meta

and

, rather glaringly, the fact that we were using ongoing games. We could not present those in public, but we were using them to color our opinion of how her play matched/did not match throughout the site at the time. You will notice we call her out on not posting in Reverse; iirc, that was one of the rare situations in which we

did

bring it up in the thread.

I don't know if you have any intentions to use our Town meta as an hydra in your meta analysis, but that would seem to make more sense than just analyzing our Town games individually. We don't have scum meta yet, but you can peruse our Town games together.

Personally, I think that your meta on me is rather inaccurate, though it's more effort than anyone so far has applied to it. For example, in Chrono Trigger, I was accused of having shallow reads (and my slot was essentially lynched on that). Looking over it, for example, I now know how some of those reads were

painfully wrong

shallow indeed, especially when I was trying to apply weaker Town-player tells to players like Vi and Nuwen.

Chiding people for being lazy/playing badly--I do that as either alignment. The joke is that my Mafia MetaMafia alignments are Justice and Will.


Something else that has been cropping up in more than one post: we (in particular, I) don't think that Piggy's 'incompetence' is an alignment tell. I've said that she is that regardless of alignment. I'm sorry if it offends, but it's my opinion. The way I used that definition in Reverse was to argue against Thor's notion that derp = Town. Incompetent players can be scum or Town. The point is that I don't see the effort that Cerulean say she applied in her early posts; I don't expect Town-Piggy to be

competent

, I expect her to do more than a half-arsed attempt at

looking

Town. I'm the first to defend players if I think they are incompetent Town even if they are mislynches waiting to happen, but I don't think she is incompetent

Town

, I think she is scum who is hardly trying.

We do have something to point out, but not now.

We can do this now, and it's the main point of this post.

This game needs four Townies to be broken. As long as these Townies aren't lynched, we win. We have these four Townies already: Cerulean, absta, Thor and us.


Cerulean are Town by way of Empire. No matter what Tammy is doing, this is Empire's Town play; unless he did some ridiculous jump in scum proficiency here while ignoring his scum game in Mafia in Triplicate

at the same time

, he does not have the same alignment in both games.

@Jesse - Wtf is your problem? Stop defaming me.

Jesse was defending absta (even if it involved downplaying absta's skill). absta was apparently

angry

at being treated like he was stupid. I saw a similar situation happen in Destiny Mafia, with CNH, where DeasVail (half of that hydra) raged at someone (kanye, iirc) who was calling them Town

and

dumb.

Scum players who are not very experienced don't usually react this way. They don't flip out in rage at people who are defending them on account of stupidity. Town thinks they are right, and are the ones who won't be happy when being insulted in this particular situation, by people who are Townreading them. Town don't particularly care about being defended if that defense requires them being insulted.

Exhibit A as counterpoint:

._.
It's a difficult pick between being called scummy and trying too hard.

Note the lack of

object

here. I didn't lash out at Izzy, Quagmire, JDodge--they were defending me and calling my logic bad, but I just whined and moved on, without lashing out specifically at named people.

Vi wasn't sold on this Townread (and I seem to recall a game in which this failed me, but I can't remember which game that was, so etc.), but the notes I got tonight is that Vi thinks that the fakehammer gambit was Townish.

If absta is considerably more experienced that we are seeing him as, etc., but from my experience modding him a while back, he's not that familiar with playing in general, much less playing as scum.


Regarding Thor: we tend to always read him as scum. We didn't see the initial V/LA questioning on Piggy as something that made sense as Town, for example (since it was reading as a joke), but for once he's not doing what he's known for: push wagons on ridiculous reasoning. He is reading more grounded, more interested in things that actually matter. This could be an effect of our explanation for the scumread on him in Reverse Mafia (which included his (apparently null) tendency to argue 'just because'), it could be a conclusion from his "Awards and the Metagame" thread, could be something else entirely--the point is, he is not trying to twist words, he is not trying to roll in pointless arguments, he is playing in a straightforward manner that seems coherent. In addition, Thor is not openly trolling--he actually reads interested in scumhunting and genuinely interested on reading everyone else.

The main reservation we have about this Townread is that it's based on Thor not matching his usual play instead of doing something openly Townish. However, the point is that Thor tries to emulate his Town play as scum, so the meta divergence would make more sense to originate in a Town game instead of a scum one.


Bottom line: we have Townreads solid enough on these three that we are willing to lynch the rest and see how the dice fall. I would like to look again at the reactions to the hammer once we know Voided's flip.

[PiggyGal15]

Piggy's Canadian though. They've got no sense of humour.

...I cried man... I cried... why you be hatin?

[Sixty]

The fact that they claim to have a town-read on you but need meta proof from you rather than anyone else as Tammy points out is actually a relatively strong scum-tell as it means that really have no even somewhat decently strong town reads which I don't believe for a second coming from Tierce.

This is ridiculous. Townreads are the easiest thing to fabricate as scum when everyone else is Town--and you and I know quite well how to pick up on Towntells. We were trying to build solid Townreads that we could trust the game on without tipping our hand too soon. Same thing as in Reverse Mafia: we needed seven strong Townreads, so we focused on that and then went through the necessary flips.

If we are lynched, so be it--add Jesse to the list of people that must not be lynched (absta, Cerulean, Jesse, Thor), and flip the rest.

[Soul2277]

Reg explain the meta more. I'm fairly sure I fence sit more as scum then town so saying the opposite doesn't work well (that and I see a bigger easier difference to spot between my current play and other town play so it's strange you're missing it in your meta reading). Along with why only skim my scum games (or only mention them)? The entire meta thing on me is really weak.

Sheep ceru more on sixty same there like usual. And how were they not obv town before then? I realize you couldn't have spoken about the game but similar to tammy's early piggy thing you could have pushed them as town more without mentioning that (and with one of you being mod of the game means the reason I didn't know their alignment til game end doesn't work since Vi could just push ceru as obv town more when talking to tierce). Kind of even goes against the past piggy read. Really though our arguments are mostly circular at this point. Plus acting like voided's flip isn't obvious based on his reaction to being hammered.

Piggy depends on OS spending time explaining his scum read on her when his internet likes him more.

~Mehdi

[Sixty]

And how were

[Cerulean]

not obv town before then? I realize you couldn't have spoken about the game but similar to tammy's early piggy thing you could have pushed them as town more without mentioning that (and with one of you being mod of the game means the reason I didn't know their alignment til game end doesn't work since Vi could just push ceru as obv town more when talking to tierce).

Excuse me here for a moment:
Hell no.

I had a scumread on Empire in Mafia in Triplicate, but I wouldn't promote a solid Townread here without making sure that he was scum there. He knew that I was Town (not just because he was scum, but because I was an Innocent Child), I didn't know his alignment. And what did you want Vi to do, compromise the integrity of the Micro game for the sake of this one by not explaining a read to me, when Cerulean weren't in any danger? We don't really play by gut, we like to explain reads to each other, and I'm the one who replaced out of a game (Chrono Trigger, incidentally) because I thought I had compromised information by a roundabout way. Going "oh I think they are Town" and not explaining why is not how we do things, and that would have been enough for me to feel iffy about the other game and consider it compromised. On the other side of the hydra, there is Vi, who iirc even refused to give my alignment to Quilford when he asked for it in the Dead QT of Maf.Maiden, for suspicion that Quilford wanted it for meta purposes based on ongoing games.

So no, not going to use mod-hidden information from "ongoing games in which one of us is

alive

" for meta purposes. If we talked about Dirty Dealing re: Piggy, it was because neither of us were involved in it, and we made sure to never make any of that info public where it could compromise the outcome of that game.

It's exactly the same situation when you account for the change in circumstances.

[Soul2277]

I realize you couldn't have spoken about the game

This applies both to here and in the hydra itself. Considering piggy's essentially had a town case given for her in thread vi writing one without ever mentioning or hinting the other game is perfectly doable with 0 comprising of a game.

~Mehdi

[N]

I don't even remember anything Voided has done. But then again, I haven't been paying the best attention to this game. Right now, the only things I can remember are that Piggy did some really scummy shit early game (I can't remember anything she's done since, though, so I guess that's how she's slipped others' suspicions?), Sixty has made some horrible cases (seriously, the last time I saw a case that bad was by a cop who had a guilty result but didn't want to claim their role), Mehdi/blue-avatar/Thor had a big argument with lots of walls (I skimmed most of it), and there's too many damn hydras running around (and I can't keep them straight). Oh, and Justin Timberlake replaced in and made

more

fucking walls.

So, from the small amount of information I managed to retain, let's lynch Piggy and Sixty and the third partner can do whatever they're currently doing and it doesn't matter.

[Justin Timberlake]

This is ridiculous. Townreads are the easiest thing to fabricate as scum when everyone else is Town--and you and I know quite well how to pick up on Towntells. We were trying to build solid Townreads that we could trust the game on without tipping our hand too soon. Same thing as in Reverse Mafia: we needed seven strong Townreads, so we focused on that and then went through the necessary flips.

I don't believe that this is the only thing you have to say about my wall-of-thoughts-and-reads at all. You've literally ignored taking a stance on us despite the fact that you know my meta better than most and probably have a decent grasp of Faradays meta too (Though his trolling really is just him being a cunt). And while I do still cling onto the little shred of hope that Voided will flip mafia it's very very unlikely to happen given his reaction towards the hammer and his posts after it and I think you'd know that so your 'want to look at reactions again once we know Voideds flip' comes across as incredibly fake. Not to mention the fact that you never took a stance whatsoever but randomly hammered Voided when there was pressure coming towards you for entirely self-preservation reasons and neither of you are bad enough players as town to know that random-hammering is a big no-go especially hammering someone you 'have no stance on' prior to it.

Reg explain the meta more. I'm fairly sure I fence sit more as scum then town so saying the opposite doesn't work well (that and I see a bigger easier difference to spot between my current play and other town play so it's strange you're missing it in your meta reading). Along with why only skim my scum games (or only mention them)? The entire meta thing on me is really weak.

I skimmed them because I had a horrible headache and a lack of real time to sit in and do the reading and stated I was planning on reading them in much greater detail later (Probably sometime in the next few hours) but I said all that in Post 402 so this just comes across as you attempting to chip away de-crediting us by saying 'the meta is weak!' when I haven't even had a chance to go through it properly. And mentioning the links were so Empire could have a chance to read them too so we could actually talk about it properly rather than with less than full information.

[Sixty]

You've literally ignored taking a stance on us despite the fact that you know my meta better than most and probably have a decent grasp of Faradays meta too (Though his trolling really is just him being a cunt).

I can't read Faraday worth a damn. Like Vi and SpyreX, he's one of those players I hope will die before I have to care about trying to wrap my mind around them. I have bad memories from the firm-to-death Townreads I had on Nuwen and Vi in Chrono Trigger; you can check Otherworld for how I dealt with Vi after that, and MLP Redemption for a downplayed version of that, iirc. And while I've skimmed some of your games I wasn't involved in, no, I don't have a particularly good ability of reading you, at least in early Days. Like Empire (and like me), you quickly lose motivation as scum, and that is one of my main tools in nailing such players. It is hard to muster motivation even when you know you need to. Having my four/five Townreads means I don't have to worry about you at all; it's Nightless, which means you won't die, which means you'll have plenty of opportunities to show you're actually working as Town; one mega post of reads isn't enough, but you'll either keep it up or not. Like with Vi, I assume you're Town and play early times accordingly--there will be chances for you to prove your mettle; the truth is that even as scum, you have difficulty

not

playing to a pro-Town agenda, so I don't worry overmuch.

And while I do still cling onto the little shred of hope that Voided will flip mafia it's very very unlikely to happen given his reaction towards the hammer and his posts after it and I think you'd know that so your 'want to look at reactions again once we know Voideds flip' comes across as incredibly fake. Not to mention the fact that you never took a stance whatsoever but randomly hammered Voided when there was pressure coming towards you for entirely self-preservation reasons and neither of you are bad enough players as town to know that random-hammering is a big no-go especially hammering someone you 'have no stance on' prior to it.

I'll let you in on a secret:

Fri 16 Nov 2012 07:15:20

I haven't revealed preliminary opinions on the reactions because I have hardly done more than skim through them (and your wall). There's no Night, I'm in no rush.

The hammer was very much not-random, though.

Vi gets so few chances to trollhammer.

We have our set of Townreads, we don't need the rest.

You seem to agree with our set of designated Townreads, so while you may disagree on the execution (i.e. our hammer), the plan itself should be reading sound. This setup only needs four people cleared as Town; if everyone agrees not to lynch those, the others can be lynched until we get two scum flips.

[Sixty]

I realize you couldn't have spoken about the game

This applies both to here and in the hydra itself. Considering piggy's essentially had a town case given for her in thread vi writing one without ever mentioning or hinting the other game is perfectly doable with 0 comprising of a game.

...Piggy? Weren't we talking about Cerulean? Or are we saying that Vi should have sold me a Townread on Cerulean by their case for Town-Piggy?

Look, the point is that Cerulean was never in any danger. We thought Tammy was hammering too much on the "rile people up for reactions" tell. Then Vi thought that Empire being interested on meta could be a sign of very clear Townieness. And I've just shown that

concurrent scum Empire

was quite lazy to produce capable reads. I can't see why he would be good scum here and not in Mafia in Triplicate when the games were happening at the same time, not with that difference in proficiency and willingness to do stuff. This means he's obvTown

now

, for

me

, when I have the full information, and Vi wouldn't have forced weaker Towntells on me to keep me off someone

we were not even voting

. There was no point, and being cagey and/or acting with confirmation bias regarding other aspects of Cerulean's play could have compromised my place in Mafia in Triplicate. End of story.

[Justin Timberlake]

Sixty you're getting lynched next. How does that make you

feel

?

[Justin Timberlake]

(Tammy was obvtown anyway. She's much more bitchy as town)

[Sixty]

Sixty you're getting lynched next. How does that make you

feel

?

Delighted!

We don't need to be alive to win this, and Vi won't be around much (if at all) for the next week plus. I'm obviously not happy, but I'm not about to throw a bitch fit in the thread, as that will only distract from what is important regarding Those Who Must Not Be Lynched. It's a Nightless game, so we can trust capable players (namely Tammy/Empire) to do the purging that needs to be done without dying halfway through. Don't forget our Townreads and carry on.

(Puppies are still better than Boring Ass Vanilla Cats.)

[Soul2277]

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

[Justin Timberlake]

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

lol except sixty weren't getting lynched so it'd be more distancing than bussing but OK

[Justin Timberlake]

Sixty you're getting lynched next. How does that make you

feel

?

Delighted!

We don't need to be alive to win this, and Vi won't be around much (if at all) for the next week plus. I'm obviously not happy, but I'm not about to throw a bitch fit in the thread, as that will only distract from what is important regarding Those Who Must Not Be Lynched. It's a Nightless game, so we can trust capable players (namely Tammy/Empire) to do the purging that needs to be done without dying halfway through. Don't forget our Townreads and carry on.

(Puppies are still better than Boring Ass Vanilla Cats.)

'We don't need to be alive to win this' I stopped reading there.

[Soul2277]

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

lol except sixty weren't getting lynched so it'd be more distancing than bussing but OK

FUCK YOU

Those were the very words that came out of YOUR fuckimg hydra mouth. You were having a "convo" with reg saying that Sixty and I were cross bussing.

Do you want me to quote it? Stop trying to slander our name when it was you who fucking said it.

[Justin Timberlake]

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

But Mehdi's the one that voted sixty? So it'd not have to be you bussing?

Also where has regfan misread you as town? When have I?

[Justin Timberlake]

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

lol except sixty weren't getting lynched so it'd be more distancing than bussing but OK

FUCK YOU

Those were the very words that came out of YOUR fuckimg hydra mouth. You were having a "convo" with reg saying that Sixty and I were cross bussing.

Do you want me to quote it? Stop trying to slander our name when it was you who fucking said it.

Are you going to do your spastic rage thing again in the hope to look town? It won't work. By very definition it's distancing if it's not successful. You fucking idiot.

[Justin Timberlake]

Hey Oversoul. Where's your reads? Where's your content?