Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Cerulean]

[quote="In post 773

Same with Cerulean/Deadpool, actually, although I'm not as convinced these two are both town. I had a scumread on absta before, and SAD saying he understands how several people read absta as scum doesn't help that. Tammy's reluctance to out her reads doesn't seem overtly scummy to me; yeah, it's weird, but I don't see why she would be less likely to conform as scum than town.[/quote]

It had nothing to do with being reluctant to out reads, and everything to do with determining Arthur's motivation.

[callforjudgement]

Vote Count

• Thor665 (2)
  : Soul2277 PiggyGal15
  
• JesseSheffield (2)
  : Thor665 N
  
• Soul2277 (2)
  : JesseSheffield Justin Timberlake
  
• Deadpool (1)
  : Cerulean
  
• Not voting:
  Deadpool

Deadline: Sat 1 Dec, 23:29 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2012-12-01 23:29:00)

)

With 8 alive it is 5 to lynch.

[Thor665]

I may sheep you - but first your hydra owes me those reads I asked about.

Why?

~Mehdi

Because I asked for them.

Oh, but do you see that I was right? He had a motive that he was pushing to ask. I knew Arthur was trying to do something...because I know Arthur.

Obviously he had an agenda - the thing is, so what? What part of him having an agenda makes it dangerous to state your reads?

@Deadpool - what do you, coming from 20+ games of experience, think of Tammy calling herself a waffle queen and how does that feed into your current read there?

[Cerulean]

It wasn't dangerous for me to state my reads. I just knew something was up with him. Wanted him to out his motivation first.

[Thor665]

But..why? As soon as you stated your reads you'd get the motivation.
I don't get it.

[Thor665]

I mean, that would be like when Soul here goes and asks me 'Hey, Thor, why didn't you provide a read on Piggy when you unvoted her?"
And I replied with "Why do you want to know?"

The obvious answer is 'he's scumhunting me or faking scumhunting me in some manner - duh. He is looking for a tell.
The social contract is that you provide the info so they can do with it what they will and then you assess whether that is townish or scummy for your own part.
Or you deny giving them the info for whatever reason and do the same.
But wanting a scumhunting (or fake scumhunting) method explained prior to stepping into it...I really don't get the motivation there.

[Cerulean]

I didn't like his tone. I wants him to establish why he was asking/his purpose.

[Soul2277]

I meant why for the first part (the I may sheep you).

Quick reads summary we now both agree on. We'll expand on later likely Monday except for thor which the summary and argument following it I think makes clear our reasoning on him:

Town
Ceru
Dead
Jesse
JT
N

Scum
Piggy
Thor

~Mehdi

[N]

Same with Cerulean/Deadpool, actually, although I'm not as convinced these two are both town. I had a scumread on absta before, and SAD saying he understands how several people read absta as scum doesn't help that. Tammy's reluctance to out her reads doesn't seem overtly scummy to me; yeah, it's weird, but I don't see why she would be less likely to conform as scum than town.

It had nothing to do with being reluctant to out reads, and everything to do with determining Arthur's motivation.

Did you really expect him to tell you why he wanted your reads before you'd actually given them?

[N]

Town
Ceru
Dead
Jesse
JT
N

Scum
Piggy
Thor

Is this a sliding scale, or have you just grouped everyone as town or scum?

[Cerulean]

Town Arthur has never behaved that way with me when he's known it was me and it's clear I'm town. There is literally no way Arthur can suspect me here. So for him to turn it around on me when I was asking him questions totally means either he drank retarded juice today or he's legit scum. There's no way around it.

I knew from the way he asked, because his tone was off, that there was more to it than wanting my reads. Which is why I asked, and which is why I got stubborn about it.

He's scum here.

[Cerulean]

Same with Cerulean/Deadpool, actually, although I'm not as convinced these two are both town. I had a scumread on absta before, and SAD saying he understands how several people read absta as scum doesn't help that. Tammy's reluctance to out her reads doesn't seem overtly scummy to me; yeah, it's weird, but I don't see why she would be less likely to conform as scum than town.

It had nothing to do with being reluctant to out reads, and everything to do with determining Arthur's motivation.

Did you really expect him to tell you why he wanted your reads before you'd actually given them?

If he was town, absolutely. If he was town he'd want to work with me, but he didn't.

[Soul2277]

It is not a sliding scale.

Still disagree with ceru on arthur. People who know you can still misread you (and he wouldn't want to work with someone he thinks is scum).

~Mehdi

[Cerulean]

Nope!

[Cerulean]

Except why did he keep talking about my strong town tells I was dropping? He's scum here.

[Cerulean]

It is not a sliding scale.

Still disagree with ceru on arthur. People who know you can still misread you (and he wouldn't want to work with someone he thinks is scum).

~Mehdi

HE HASN'T EVEN HAD THE BALLS TO COME OUT AND CALL ME SCUM!

[Cerulean]

He's not even voting...though he gave tiers and thinks my push on scum was contrived. Yep, totally believes it. Lynch it.

[Soul2277]

Calmly summarize you're argument on him along with all he's said. Not calling someone scum isn't really a scum tell (is there a big difference between heavily imply and say?). Thinking you're scum and changing reads on you when he read your reads (which would have been after he looked at the posts made in the catch up) isn't scummy. You're pretty much saying the town tells he decided in his catch up post (which doesn't cover the whole game) can't be changed after finishing reading the game if he thinks you're scummier overall.

Skipping thor's response the reason I'm questioning him is because why would someone town say I might sheep you when you're fosing a strong town read of his (the fact he was fine with you saying he's adamant on it is enough for him being a strong town read). Ceru what is your read on thor right now?

~Mehdi

[Justin Timberlake]

Home from cricket, will read up on everything in about an hour, want to shower and grab dinner first.

[Cerulean]

I'll explain it more tomorrow. I'm crashing now, but Arthur does not talk to me like that when he's town. He's trying to force his aggressive town meta.

[Justin Timberlake]

Oh jesus christ, 10 pages in one day, if 5 of them are Faraday spamming I'm going to force him out of the hydra.

Instead of a big wall that no one other than Empire will read I'll try and cut down my thoughts about it all into smaller posts. Post 545 pretty much confirms absta as town. Only one reason I can think of him having to do it and it with the setup this is it wouldn't be the case as scum. Plus I don't think he'd be a big enough cunt to fake that tell as scum and replace out forcing someone else to take a scum slot in a game that scum can never really win.

[Justin Timberlake]

The question about Piggy to Ceru and the 'there's a follow-up-question' does read as a town-tell, shows legit thought process, the comments on Voided stating he's scummy / is scum mean

this post was made days ago?

If that's the case why wasn't it posted as soon as you could do it - I know you stated that you had troubles at some point but surely that didn't stick around for 2-3 days. Really need the underlined answered, it's a big big big important factor.

About Absta there: While I've seen scum play 'illogically' before and thus do things that don't always have scum motivation attached to them I can follow Abstas plan and thought process inside his 'vote; x', 'they omgused and i think town would' 'unvote'. This is all pointless now though as his replace out makes him obvtown. About Thor there: I think bitterness is either a null-tell for Thor or a town-tell if not that as I've seen him act 'bitter' as town a lot. About Empire there: No, his meta-based reads are generally very spot on, I wouldn't say that they'd be 100% accurate but I'd trust them more times than not by a long margin. And I was more confident in Voidedmafia than Sixtymafia - felt the case and his actions were far scummier though was pretty confident both were mafia.

Not understanding what this: "why would that change your mind about anything?" is asking.

If you really want me to grab our game history and point out in detail which games we've played and my reads on you I will and I'm fairly sure there's more games that you listed but I did read you spot on in Maiden and that wasn't with partners help, same goes in Scummies though a lot was to do with predecessor, read you right in Flame Wars and never deviated to a scum-read, was insistent you were town and should not be lynched. G v E was the only time I've misread you and it had to do with having a strong strong scum read ony our predecessor more than your play specifically. Also read you right in 2-3 of your games I spec'ed.

[Justin Timberlake]

All of the above post has to do with Oversouls catch up post in Post 569 by the way.

Biggest issue I'm having with Oversouls 'rage' posts is that I don't understand how he can be 'legitimately' annoyed or frustrated with me at all - I haven't responded in any manner other than fairly calm and collected regardless of how frustratingly bad his posts have been. Nor have I commented at all on saying that his play here = his meta scum play - said multiple times only really metaing on Medhi and still have a bit to do on that. Answer to the underlined in the above post is pretty much going to be decisive of my read on them at the moment though I think, that combined with Mehdis meta analysis.

[Justin Timberlake]

Jesse is there a reason you didn't respond or comment on my Post 534 explaining how your reasoning should lead to N-Town and not N-Scum. You commented on Thors post above it and state that you still have a scum-read on N in Post 644 so clearly you haven't 'agreed' with me on how your logic is flawed so want to explain to me how I have it wrong? Also you said there was things in our catch up post you wanted to comment on - it never happened.

I really need to read Post 646 from Piggy again later, my mind just glossed over it. Someone (Probably Empire) urge me to do this if I haven't in the next few hours.

Thor, I know you've probably explained this at some point either in one of your responses towards Soul briefly or in the future (Page 28sih to now) but can you explain your town-read on N for me please? If it's just 'He said lets have them talk' I don't find that to be a tell at all really, think it's sort of a fillerish line. I'm gathering that your inital reasoning and vote on Jesse has to do with him joining you on N - I don't think 'joining a counterwagon' is a scum-tell, know where you're trying to come with it being one but think it's more likely Tierce told partners to vote her and not N.

Tammy, I think from Post 702 towards jesus christ to whenever your back-and-forth ends with Arthur is just you two being stubborn and wanting the other to answer their question before they answer the others question. I really don't see the 'tone' issue that you're talking about and his slots town re; Absta anyway, if you need more proof of that other than Abstas replace out literally being something that only comes from town then look at Sixtys 'gambit' towards Absta. I just got to his explanation in Post 729 okay he's without a fucking doubt town, Tammy, you might need to step back to see this but his reasoning for pushing you to out reads straight away makes a fuckload of sense. That being that he wants reads from YOU specifically and not the HYDRAS reads and making you answer straight away means you can't converse about it. It's pretty much a way for him to pressure you to get a read. It's very very town. Okay, if all that isn't enough to prove that you're wrong, think on this; he's stated he hasn't slept for 20 hours, he's stated that he hasn't had a chance to talk with F-16 in full depth about their thoughts yet and that F-16 has barely caught up so far, him not voting you but rather hunting and pressuring you to get a stronger read in the meantime makes a lot of sense.

I need to go through Sixtys ISO later and do some more interaction hunting. Need Oversoul / Jesse to answer questions asap too. I'll read Piggys post too and need one more read through on N. Right now though I'd bet the game on Cerulean / Deadpool / Thor all being town.

[Soul2277]

JT I want your response to the argument me and thor have that's around their (probably a page or two after where you are).

~Mehdi