Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[pirate mollie]

jesus christ the xposts

Two things Mollie ~

My apologies were sarcastic, and not sincere

, which

guilt

.
We have not given you a chance to hide and blend in, you were in the spotlight since we first started.

hhhhhmmm........

no, I put myself in the spotlight but hey I see you are rewriting history okay you keep pushing that narrative.

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-4): Malakittens
Pirate Mollie (L-3): Shrimp85, Guile
Guile (L-2): ProHawk, Pirate Mollie, Mantisdreamz
ProHawk(L-4): borkjerfkin
borkjerfkin (L-4): Adam-12

Not Voting: leviathan93

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[borkjerfkin]

either way, I was thinking levi or guille. but thinking on it now, these 2 have been low posters and i doubt that both of the low posters are scum. that's way to easy to look at it that way. so i'd like to take back this comment.

Meaning what? What do you think about Guille and Levi?

[Adam-12]

That's a huge generalization anyway. It's an acceptable meta tell if someone tends to post way more or less as scum but it doesn't work as an across the board tell.

Why's not reading the thread scummy?

When I replace in as town, it kinda helps me get, I dunno, scum reads? I kinds like to get the "full picture thing" like the rest of players have (If you don't need scum reads, don't worry about it).

Your question is a joke right?

[Mantisdreamz]

@Mantis -- I still don't understand the scum read on Levi.

due to these posts at the beginning.

this post:

mafia talk time? they can do that? I thought you could only do that during a night thing. and go where mollie? hasn't the game just started? as for being on the sight, I'm always on the sight or at least I always have the sight on tab on my computer even if i'm sleeping. that way its easy access to follow my games and see who post what and I can be updated faster and respond quicker.

^all the questions.


and then this post:

@adam, I appreciate that. =)

and I agree with adam, I did not feel like Mala was being sarcastic towards me in voting me for not confirming when I should of. she felt like it was something scum would do possibly from her experience in playing the game. though,

I will say it was an innocent misunderstanding on her part

, because I know my reason for acting the way I did and stated it for y'all to see.

^my bold. it makes it seem that he knows malakitten is town. why would he be so sure that it is an innocent misunderstanding?


that's pretty much it, to be honest. that and thread avoidance. maybe he has been really busy though, i don't know. either way, those posts don't make me feel that great about him.

and then he claimed blacksmith.

[Mantisdreamz]

either way, I was thinking levi or guille. but thinking on it now, these 2 have been low posters and i doubt that both of the low posters are scum. that's way to easy to look at it that way. so i'd like to take back this comment.

Meaning what? What do you think about Guille and Levi?

i think they both seem scummy, but i'm hesitant in calling them both scum, because i don't really think scum would both be low posters.

[pirate mollie]

@Mollie: I wasn't planning on giving him a "free game pass" but his D1 actions are very pro-town so far.

I thought your conversation about hiding/blending in vs. bumping against the tide revolved more about independent thought vs. going with the group; I don't see how it relates to putting people in my town pile?

I will let Hawk respond to the points that specifically apply to him.

town tends to move in herds but you can only really see it in hindsight usually. you have to play enough games to get a "feel" for when there is town herd movement on scum. it is really hard to explain. it "felt" right when mantis, you and I were talking and working things out and shifting to guille but guille going back and looking up an old game makes me pause. I am trusting mantis's read on you and you are being more flexible with your reads so you are looking more townish. scum are more sticky with their reads cos they are trying to steer the game for who they want in endgame in order to maximise for a win. <------ this is what good scum do.

the bumping against the tide was in response cos it felt like town was coming together with pressure on guille who was skating around the edges at that point. but now that you are leaning that guille might actually be town and with my flip I will be town, what do you think of hawk boy saying that a scum flip from either of us would clear the other? I am asking this cos I know I am town and I am wondering if guille is too cos he went back and looked at a previous game and who as scum does that. is that typical of this site? that is why I am asking.

you are just going to have to use your own best judgment but I am relieved to hear that you will not be giving him a pass all game. steering is not necessarily a scum tell strong town players do it too so I look for who is pushing an agenda and not just votes.

I know I am town and I know how I will flip

[pirate mollie]

hawk boy I am asking these questions again:

why do you think borky looks town?

is going back and reading a previous game something scum typically do on this site?

[Adam-12]

what do you think of hawk boy saying that a scum flip from either of us would clear the other?

I see his point but its really theoretical and doesn't add any weight to a case unless we are deadlocked and evaluating comparative lynch strength. When a scum actually flips, statements like these have value.

[borkjerfkin]

Here's what I've gotten with my interactions with everyone so far:


Mollie: Eh. Null. Her interactions with people look good (save maybe prohawk or adam) but I don't agree with most of her talking points. She's one I'll reread.
Adam: Very adamantly believes that my aversion to reading the entire thread / commenting on every major occurrence is scummy (it's not; focused posting is good posting). He's town.
Levi: No interactions but he's town.
Shrimp: weak town read mostly because he hasn't really been around much since #471. I'll reread him.
Prohawk: Legitimately offended that I called him names early on -- that's a towntell; scum knows that what they do is disingenuous and aren't offended by it. I may have actually been barking up the wrong tree with him considering what he said in #538. -- it paints a clearer picture of what he did wrt the switch from Mollie to Guille. I'm worried about where he'll go with Guille once Guille does post but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Leaning town.
Mantis. Don't like her explanation about Levi, and really has been tiptoeing around my questions in general. Leaning scum.
Guille -- don't like the case on Mollie (see #471 as to why I think this). Weak scum.
Mala: null. Need to iso her as she's not talking and no one is talking to or about her. She's the one I know the least about right now, along with Mollie and Shrimp.

VOTE: Mantis
I think equating activity level to towniness is a cop out.

[pirate mollie]

what do you think of hawk boy saying that a scum flip from either of us would clear the other?

I see his point but its really theoretical and doesn't add any weight to a case unless we are deadlocked and evaluating comparative lynch strength. When a scum actually flips, statements like these have value.

okay but can you also see how knowing my alignment and wondering if guille might be town cos of reasons already stated do you see how it kind of looks like how it is a sweet set up for a double town lynch?

I am okay with my lynch and I know that you think that this is anti-town but I am not a player to have in lylo unless I am convincing enough that I am really town and right now it doesn't look like I am. on-line gamers will know what I mean by "tanking". that is what I am doing I am tanking for town. we obviously have different playstyles and that is honestly what I was trying to get you to see earlier in the game, look at the substance beyond the style.

being noisy in games provides a minefield of info if the players go back and look at interactions with a flip in mind of a dead player. hawk boy is committed to a scummy read on me and I am good with that actually cos it highlights the cognitive dissonance of saying scum try to hide and blend in when that isn't what I have done at all. I have been noisy and insulting from the get go although to be honest this is actually me toned down a bit. just a bit though, lol.

would like to get some answers from hawk boy so I can get back to my town read on him cos right now I am waffling. again.

[borkjerfkin]

Mollie I think my problem with you is that you're doing some really questionable things, but being so candid about them that you're hoping to try to get towncred for them.

[ProHawk]

Molly, your scummy side is showing again.

You can't try and paint yourself town because you don't think you fit my scum status-quo. When the time is right, we will cover this all again.

For your questions, Bork is town because he came into the game and garnered negative attention right from the get-go. Post #558 is just icing on his townie-cake.

Your question of research really doesn't matter because meta cases are weak and usually wrong. You also do realize that he used that research to paint you as scum and being inconsistent right? Scum can and will do additional work if it will help further their cause.

[ProHawk]

do you see how it kind of looks like how it is a sweet set up for a double town lynch?

Allow me to show you what my realization really paints with simple equations.

Mollie and Guille are not scum together. Therefore...
If Mollie flips scum, this adds major town points to Guille.
If Guille flips scum, this adds major town points to Mollie.

If Mollie flips town, this says nothing absolute toward the alignment of Guille.
If Guille flips town, this also says nothing absolute toward the alignment of Mollie.

Hence, my statement doesn't setup anything even remotely close to a double town lynch.

[pirate mollie]

Molly, your scummy side is showing again.

You can't try and paint yourself town because you don't think you fit my scum status-quo. When the time is right, we will cover this all again.

For your questions, Bork is town because he came into the game and garnered negative attention right from the get-go

. Post #558 is just icing on his townie-cake.

Your question of research really doesn't matter because meta cases are weak and usually wrong. You also do realize that he used that research to paint you as scum and being inconsistent right? Scum can and will do additional work if it will help further their cause.

except I did this too and you had me down as scum so

borky would you like to state what I did that you find questionable? did you read the thread yet?

[pirate mollie]

eta: that is actually misrepresenting guille he used his research to ask a question or that is how I took it. his case has been based on my play in this game so no, it was not a meta read.

[borkjerfkin]

did you read the thread yet?

I'm reading and contributing simultaneously.

Basically when you say that you're seeing the writing on the wall when it comes to your lynch and you're cool with that but you're tanking for the team, if you're so self-aware as to know this is anti-town, why aren't you self-aware enough just not to do it?

[Adam-12]

what do you think of hawk boy saying that a scum flip from either of us would clear the other?

I see his point but its really theoretical and doesn't add any weight to a case unless we are deadlocked and evaluating comparative lynch strength. When a scum actually flips, statements like these have value.

[quoteokay but can you also see how knowing my alignment and wondering if guille might be town cos of reasons already stated do you see how it kind of looks like how it is a sweet set up for a double town lynch?

I don't see him using this as part of a scum case. He can correct me if I am wrong but I just see this as a potentially helpful comment down the road and possibly even as a note to himself. But you are right that "hunting in pairs" is similar to "lining up lynches", until we have a scum flip.

I am okay with my lynch and I know that you think that this is anti-town but I am not a player to have in lylo unless I am convincing enough that I am really town and right now it doesn't look like I am. on-line gamers will know what I mean by "tanking". that is what I am doing I am tanking for town. we obviously have different playstyles and that is honestly what I was trying to get you to see earlier in the game, look at the substance beyond the style.

If this is true, how in the world can you say that its because you just played 3 games in a row as scum -- that is practically a scum slip and most certainly is cog-dis given your experience level.

[ProHawk]

Reading other games is looking for meta.

Pray-tell what negative attention did you intentionally garner?

@Pirate Mollie:

The only other game that you used the word Grooming was the Newbie 1286 game.

I don't want to read through it, can you give me a summary of where that got you, considering you were town in that game.

Conclusion: Adam has the best case on Mollie, and I agree with him.

She is inconsistent.

She overreacts to certain accusations and her OMGUS is off the charts.

See bold. It sure looks like he is trying to use it to support his conclusion of you being inconsistent to me.

@Adam, my statement was in no way linking two scum together, but rather just the opposite - read my equation if you are confused.

[Adam-12]

Right, you would "confirm a town player", +1 town.

[Adam-12]

I don't buy the oppressed-lylo-martyr-logic because its simple, care enough to play like town and drop all that excess baggage.

[Adam-12]

When I said she was right, I meant in general about "pair hunting".

[Adam-12]

@Mollie: You are trying to say that you started this game with the intention of "tanking" on purpose??

[Adam-12]

I also must say, yes you have been vociferous and very active but my gut (without re-ISO-ing you) is that you haven't done very much actual scum hunting; its just how I feel. I will be doing a re-read tomorrow and I will evaluate how much of your posting is actually scum hunting.

[pirate mollie]

do you see how it kind of looks like how it is a sweet set up for a double town lynch?

Allow me to show you what my realization really paints with simple equations.

Mollie and Guille are not scum together. Therefore...
If Mollie flips scum, this adds major town points to Guille.
If Guille flips scum, this adds major town points to Mollie.

If Mollie flips town, this says nothing absolute toward the alignment of Guille.
If Guille flips town, this also says nothing absolute toward the alignment of Mollie.

Hence, my statement doesn't setup anything even remotely close to a double town lynch.

missed this post in eta.

okay I see where your reasoning is but that wasn't quite what I got from your earlier post.

[pirate mollie]

did you read the thread yet?

I'm reading and contributing simultaneously.

Basically when you say that you're seeing the writing on the wall when it comes to your lynch and you're cool with that but you're tanking for the team, if you're so self-aware as to know this is anti-town, why aren't you self-aware enough just not to do it?

I decided to just "tank" when I drew a bunch of aggro for really dumb reasons.