NY 160B - Welcome to Castle Zar - TIME FOR FIREWORKS!

[DeasVail]

Ok fine, you win, you're town.

Can you explain this?

[DeasVail]

Oh and deas I think it's a dumb reason and would mean I get policy lynched every game when a person is readable without it.

But you said your town and scum games would look the same to anyone but you, so how are you readable?

[Mehdi2277]

Since general scum tells aren't really meta. How you play in one game isn't pure meta.

[Mehdi2277]

And deas you have one finished game with me. Was I unreadable then?

[DeasVail]

No, but if you play the same as scum, then the reasons for me thinking you were town were invalid.

I think that how I consider scumtells and meta may be different from how you do, or at least how you seem to this game though.

[Mehdi2277]

If you'd really like to compare reading a scum game of mine works. I don't think there is any differences that are noticeably consistent with scum games and not town games though except a few minor things.

[DeasVail]

I personally get confused whenever I try to meta anybody. I've seen it work for others though,

[Tammy]

UNVOTE:

Not interested in a hammer yet. It's only Tuesday.

[Mehdi2277]

Time relevance is? If it's to say something else that would be?

[Tammy]

Mehdi - I get that you think you have to ask an incessant amount of questions, but this one is common sense.

[Mehdi2277]

No it's just that I think there's more of a reason to it that I'd rather hear vs implied.

[Tammy]

Well then ask the question you want to know.

It's Tuesday, deadlines not until Friday and I don't want it cut short especially when there are several people who really haven't made much of an impression/given meh contribution and need to contribute more. I'm really not interested in going into day two with the bulk of the information for today being your misunderstanding of the johhog vote issue and discussion about that and the AA vigbait issue. No matter what your alignment is, it's not fruitful discussion come tomorrow. I want to reread through some things and have questions I want to ask people also, so I'd rather the day not end soon. I also need to answer empires questions and want his feedback on a couple of things.

Mehdi - you finally gave an answer for why to vote him for his unanswered question that makes sense. I was waiting for you to say something along those lines to clear that up. Why did it take you so long to give that reasoning, when it was clear people thought you were implying he was ignoring you?

Also easy target does not mean quick lynch or someone you think you can get lynched easily. It means someone who is easy to go after, and while you may hope to get them lynched quickly that doesn't necessarily happen. For instance piggy is super easy to go after because she posts rather awkwardly and does things you would expect scum to do when she's town. But in 463, it took y'all three days to get that mislynch and in the end it was a town driven mislynch. It's often hard when your scum to figure out what to go after, so people like NS, Piggy, etc, who typically behave suspicious anyway give a good place for scum to find something to push that looks real be ause they'll typically be looking for scummy behavior, not motivations, and they get to look active in the process.

Like snowstorm said, these easy targets can be scum, but when people jump on someone who is known for being an easy target, it's good to suss out if it's a town motivated attack or just opportunistic. Thats why johhogs question looked town motivated and was one of the best reasons for the vote on e,pore as far as I was concerned. That was backed up by the question just a few minutes later if empire had ever played with NS before. It looks like he thought about it, and then realized it was possible what he was accusing him of might not stand.

[Vi]

...

Ok fine, you win, you're town.

I don't understand why people ever question it.

EBHOBANWOOF

Everyone

Badass

Has One Bullet And No One Wets Our Opulent Fur?

Ok, I can see that as long as Vi doesn’t say “Screw that, I don’t know this joker IRL”.

...I don't.

...

But we have spoken on messenger.

---

This is probably the first time I've ever found Tammy boring.

[Mehdi2277]

Since to me it made sense the first few times I argued it with him. Pretty sure I said repeated myself around then, so if you want me to say it in a clear way ask specifically about it when I've answered before.

Oh and unlike N/sixty I helped defend piggy for awhile (I just wasn't going to say no when JT had a strong case on them that made it really easy to just add in). Anyways the better connection for joh is his current play as compared to micro 64. Game's only two short pages long and shouldn't take more then 5 minutes to read.

And that was the question. I know you didn't feel a need to slow down the earlier lynches in Black Flag much so I was curious why it occurred now.

P-edit: For what? Is it the wall or wanting the day to slow down?

[Tammy]

This is probably the first time I've ever found Tammy boring.

[Tammy]

Since to me it made sense the first few times I argued it with him. Pretty sure I said repeated myself around then, so if you want me to say it in a clear way ask specifically about it when I've answered before.

Oh and unlike N/sixty I helped defend piggy for awhile (I just wasn't going to say no when JT had a strong case on them that made it really easy to just add in). Anyways the better connection for joh is his current play as compared to micro 64. Game's only two short pages long and shouldn't take more then 5 minutes to read.

And that was the question. I know you didn't feel a need to slow down the earlier lynches in Black Flag much so I was curious why it occurred now.

Is that a scum game of johhog? I've played with him before when he was town and I was scum on rocky, and that's the type of meta I take more seriously anyway.

In black flag we were pretty convinced sixty were scum right off the bat, and after their scum hammer claim there was no purpose to waiting around, but we had a lot to gain from getting the lynch over quickly when we all knew they were scum. I mean if you remember nothing else got done day two and the longer we would have waited the more frustrating it would have been.

[Mehdi2277]

It's a town game of his yelling at someone. Day 3 was also not long.

[Empire]

Aha – now I see why I find you scummy – the bolded. I find tone to be a fluffy non-word that people use to justify reads that can’t otherwise be justified (aka more likely to come from scum than Town).

Think that's playstyle more than anything, dude. There are plenty of players who justify reads on the basis of gut/intuition and any time someone refers to a post/player as "awkward", "detached", "disengaged", etc. is certainly commenting on their tone. Surely any time someone refers to something being "genuine" or "ungenuine" is commenting on that player's tone. Don't really see how that's alignment indicative at all.

I also disagree completely with your “new players are passive” theory in that passivity is mostly a function of playstyle (I was damn active the second I joined MS and subsequently got Nightkilled in my first two games N1, meanwhile NS is an inactive lump of terrible-ness despite being on site for so long) and personality than ‘newbiness’.

You can disagree with it, that's fine, I was only speaking as a matter of my own empirical observation. For example, take a look at this game - most of players here basically either flaked out due to being overwhelmed (here) or just generally really struggled to scumhunt (here). I can buy the idea that it's personality determined, but generally speaking, stuff like what I've just quoted seems to be more the norm for newer players from my own observations.

Ok, I can see that as long as Vi doesn’t say “Screw that, I don’t know this joker

IRL

”.

You misunderstood me. I never meant to say that I knew Vi face-to-face (does anyone?) but rather that he's one of the few people I talk to outside the game via the Internet. Hell, when the game was up in sign-ups we talked about how excited I was that he joined.

So if this your normal style I’m back to my original position – that I don’t see the reasons for your ‘Town clearing’ of AA to be logical and reasonable. I think it’s been put well that you are grasping for reasons to say AA is Town. Everything you put forth is either based on premises that are not valid (new players prefer Town and that in general new players all conform to behavior patterns

when AA’s own posts refute that she should be considered inexperienced

) or based solely on your own personal experiences (which apply to you not necessarily to others).

The only thing I think would be a strong Town tell for AA would be her constant antagonizing of Vi through calling him bad and saying VI instead of Vi. And even that is predicated on knowing it is stupid to do so as Scum which requires her to know Vi which apparently she does not.

Bolded is where I have an issue: sure, she might consider herself "experienced" but the fact of the matter is that she's new

to this site

. She doesn't have any idea about the site meta or the site culture here (as evidenced by her being put off by RVS when that's such a regular part of our games). And frankly, her reads list in #186 really leads me to question just how "experienced" she really is. As far as personal experiences is concerned, well yeah, I base a lot of assumptions based on what I perceive of people. This is a huge part of the reason meta is very important to me - I don't believe there really are things that can be considered "universal" tells (i.e, tells that apply to someone regardless of the situation). Personality always has to be taken into account - how the specific person reacts to a situation. Because AA9 presumably doesn't have any completed games on here, my read on her is a combination of my own assumptions of what I've seen from new players and applying them her actions here. I don't know whether it's really possible to fully explain personal stuff that's not going to stop me from trying.

Sometimes I do. It depends on how much free time I have to myself which is very swingy. Currently with my daughter recovering from a broken wrist and holiday activities it is more constrained than usual.

Sorry to hear about that, man. Hopefully she has a very speedy recovery!

1. How is this against the grain? I don’t recall anyone directly calling AA anything other than Newb Vigbait.
2. How exactly are you liking AA MORE for Town when Post 112 reads a pretty definitive?

1. Mostly extrapolating from Konowa's FoS here and at least half of Tammy's mind being rubbed the wrong way here.
2. Didn't intend that post to be definitive, and my townread on her was one of the things I felt "pretty good" about at that stage. Her later posting made me more confident in that read, as I explained, hence the certainty you see in #264.

[Empire]

Can you explain this?

Much more like Vi's style of posting circa Micro 59 in the way he expresses his read on me as I feel like as scum he tends to push things differently. I delved into it a little bit in #112.

[Tammy]

Yes, but if you will look both empire and I started the day saying we wanted it to be short. Regfan did his case work up and was so convinced as were a couple of other people that there wasn't going to be anything else. You might note that at the end of the day I complained about the length and insisted the next day take more time.

Not really sure what relevance this has. Day one is the only day with the entire playlist. And while I don't like overlong day ones, I don't like day ones that are too short either. There's more work to do right now, so I don't want it ending yet.

Pedit: to mehdi.

[Tammy]

*empire and I didn't want it to be short. Don't mind me I just woke up from a nap not too long ago.

[Mehdi2277]

Mainly on the fact you simply saying we had time left as a reason to not do a lynch now was missing the rest of the reason.

Emp did you find anything meta wise on NS?

[Tammy]

johhhog

since you thought that empires vote on NS was scum motivated, what did you think of konowa's and baby spice' votes on NS? Also, what is your read on nobody special?

nobody special

- do you still think konowa is scum? What other scum reads do you have?

[Vi]

I never meant to say that I knew Vi face-to-face (does anyone?)

Eight scummers offhand, and I might be missing one. A large handful of them are named Matt.

(I traded in some degree of my e-nonymity earlier this year for personal reasons.)

[Empire]

Emp did you find anything meta wise on NS?

Doing it now. Games I'm looking at are: Micro 70, Otherworld, NY152, and Political Corruption Mafia.

(P.S.: Your line of questioning re: Open 463 is really cumbersome and tedious and really resembles your general line of questioning from that game.)