Mini 1401 - Game over!

[d3x]

Yes, that is why he was scum along with his other nonsense.

Everything you just agreed to points to you and him being ScumBuddies... um...

survivor mentality explains all his 'flips' on me.

This doesn't make any sense. I'm saying that he was playing Survivor Mafia over protecting his ScumBuddy {read- you}. Were you following the conversation instead of tunnelling me, you'd have seen that. How would a Survivor mentality equate to him changing his 'read' on you multiple times? I'll give you the last one, but that's a stretch to explain "all his 'flips'".

It is clear when he started to call me town was because I wasn't voting him any longer ie buddying.

This is a bit of a weasley statement. In the post immediately before your UnVote, you called him out as part of the 3man Scum Team. Explain how you believe he flipped your Vote b/c it was no longer OMGUS, plz {whch is what you are implying}.

Why would I 'weak vote' a buddy? I would gain no towncred.

I've already covered this point, but one more time for oldies sake, eh? You voted him weakly early in the Day. You would gain TownCred by riding the Wagon to it's termination {Scum flip}. You got on the Wagon for weak reasons and when the heat started dissipating, you left the Wagon for an RVS Vote, then tried to pass it off as prescience.

Keep twisting things, I would obviously have voted Conman if I were around when the lynch happened he flips scum how do I look 'terribad'?

And when exactly were you planning on getting back on the Wagon? You kept your Vote on me and were definitely around when the Wagons were neck and neck. How is this twisting anything, check the Iso Vote counts and your posts. I'll wait...

So, when did you plan to get back on the Wagon? You abandoned the Conman Wagon when it lost steam for a weak Vote against me. You didn't get back on the Conman Wagon. You were pushing hard against me while the Conman Wagon gained steam back. If you had jumped back on right before the Lynch, yes, it would've looked terribad. It would've looked exactly like what it would've been... a last minute TownCred Bus Vote.

continued...

[d3x]

Meph still says he thinks the case is bad and then Vanishes without explanation.

Most flakes do that... :/ If you had bothered to check, meph SiteFlaked. There are a thousand reasons why someone does that. He made 9 posts on MafiaScum in total. Please continue pointing to this as a ScumTell. It's very becoming of your ScumHunting prowess...

Dex ignores this because he has to as there is no way to defend it even the VI defence doesn't work here.

Plain and simple, I didn't believe he was Scum. There is no 'defending' something that doesn't need defending. I'm not ignoring anything. I came out in the 1st post of D2 and said it, I even said that I can see how others would find that scummy. What do you think I've been ignoring, exactly? If that's it, I'm not doing a very good job of ignoring something that I'm pointing out, huh?

The rest of your post is Confirmation Bias. Of course I can call his play like it was D2, I know he was Scum now. Nothing in his play pointed Scum to me. If I didn't read the flip, I'd still think he was VI. I would've backed a Policy Lynch on him before MyLo, but that's it {unless he started acting scummy, imo}. The difference between where you Quoted me and my opinion of Conman is that I don't think you're a VI. Way to take that Quote out of context, btw...

@p644 - I now see why you spent the entirity of your interactions for 9 pages on that...

Let's say Slandaar flips scum, does that make you town the rest of the game? How bout if you flipped scum, would that make Slandaar town?

Nothing guarantees anything. I say he's Scum based upon my case. Me flipping Town only proves that my intentions are pure and I'm not lying in my opinions.

Why do we need to polarize everyone again, so early in the day and after what just happened on Day 1?

What exactly happened D1 that you don't like, SK? Lynching Scum? The Town was polarized there... Getting concrete stances on Wagons is good for the Town. If you are in the wishy-washy middle ground, it's harder to read your intentions after a flip.

The reason I'm saying that one of us needs to go Today is that he's clearly ignoring the rest of the conversation in order to tunnel me. He hasn't responded to anything said in the last 5 pages aside from my case. If this is a Town v Town fight {which I

highly

doubt}, then he is helping no one but Scum. He's not even fully reading my posts, I'd wager. He's just picking out the parts where I talk about him and then arguing. He clearly didn't understand my breakdown of Conman's play D1 was in relation to him and only reinforced my case against him.

[SaintKerrigan]

Personally, I feel that both of you are town. Even if that's not the case, both of you need to stop trying to stove each others' heads in. We get it. You think Slandaar's scum, Slandaar thinks you're scum. This is

way

too early in the day to start calling for a "it's him or me" type of lynch. At the very least try to come up with someone,

anyone

else that is a suspect.

I mean, what would have happened if Conman had flipped town? How would've polarization looked then? My point is that polarization this early is bad (and honestly, polarization is almost always a bad thing anyway). Stop calling for it, and start looking around.

Gorgon, if I read what you've said correctly, you do not think NS is scum, correct?

[Kthxbye]

I'll follow you down this little brick road d3x.
VOTE: Slandaar
I still think it's unlikely that both him and Conman are scum due to the wagons and closeness of lynch for d1, but if Conman weren't in this game, your case is very compelling. I won't stand in the way of a good case because the odds don't make sense.

[d3x]

At the very least try to come up with someone, anyone else that is a suspect.

I'm not trying to be a dick even though I know it'll sound that way, but did you read my p639? I clearly have another suspect listed there. It even has a stand-alone case against the player irrespective of my thoughts on SlandaarScum {but it also throws nice points to reinforce them as Buddies... }.

[d3x]

what would have happened if Conman had flipped town?

We would have different Teams, I highly doubt Huntress & fitz woud've been NKed, and I sure as hell would've been charging after Kthx's ass. We still would have good solid leads based upon definable positions and reads.

I definitely hear what you're saying with the 'it's too early' stuff, but this shit in MyLo/LyLo with both of us being Town {again, I

highly

doubt} loses the game. At least now, it's not as finite. It'll also give the remaining Town solid reads and stances to go off of if it goes down.

[qwints]

I find the fact that d3x is pushing a Slandaar/conman/dun team incredibly disingenuous given that he didn't seem to think conman was obvscum on day 1. In his world, despite the fact that townies were several townies, including d3x himself, were proclaiming conman as town, scum felt that conman was the obvscum.

VOTE: d3x

[Slandaar]

Slandaar, reads on SiN, NS and qwints at this point in the game?

town/town/town

Gorgon is the 3rd scum I expect.

Everything you just agreed to points to you and him being ScumBuddies... um...

Everything you said was Conman did X; He voted me when I had votes he called me town when I stopped voting him aka Survival Mentality. How is this related to my alignment exactly Dex?

This doesn't make any sense. I'm saying that he was playing Survivor Mafia over protecting his ScumBuddy {read- you}. Were you following the conversation instead of tunnelling me, you'd have seen that. How would a Survivor mentality equate to him changing his 'read' on you multiple times?

See above.

This is a bit of a weasley statement. In the post immediately before your UnVote, you called him out as part of the 3man Scum Team.

Explain how you believe he flipped your Vote b/c it was no longer OMGUS, plz

See above (2) Lots of words saying the same thing.

Bolded: Explain where I said anything like that. He didn't flip my vote I changed it.

{whch is what you are implying}.

Nope;

Note: survivor mentality explains all his 'flips' on me. It is clear when

he started to call me town was because I wasn't voting him any longer

ie buddying.

He called me town BECAUSE I wasn't voting him

Nice misrep.

I've already covered this point, but one more time for oldies sake, eh? You voted him weakly early in the Day. You would gain TownCred by riding the Wagon to it's termination {Scum flip}. You got on the Wagon for weak reasons and when the heat started dissipating, you left the Wagon for an RVS Vote, then tried to pass it off as prescience.

OK that is one version of events the true version is;

I voted him because he made some junk up then just voted you to explore new avenues ie a different scumread as the conman wagon was not going anywhere fast.

So, really this is just pointless.

And when exactly were you planning on getting back on the Wagon? You kept your Vote on me and were definitely around when the Wagons were neck and neck.

How is this twisting anything, check the Iso Vote counts and your posts. I'll wait...

I would obviously vote my scumread to save myself at deadline over you so... how do I look terribad again when I do this? how do I look terribad again by voting him if I was around when he had 4 or 5 votes by saying 'Well Dex isnt going today will just vote Conman' ?

Do Explain.

Bolded: How about you show that I was around during the end of day. I think last I saw he had like 3 or 4 votes then he was just dead.

What does Neck and Neck have to do with anything, at all? the wagons could be 1/1 with 6 to lynch thats neck and neck, there were days left before deadline I was happy where my vote was and still am.

So, when did you plan to get back on the Wagon? You abandoned the Conman Wagon when it lost steam for a weak Vote against me. You didn't get back on the Conman Wagon. You were pushing hard against me while the Conman Wagon gained steam back. If you had jumped back on right before the Lynch, yes, it would've looked terribad. It would've looked exactly like what it would've been... a last minute TownCred Bus Vote.

Above.

I don't feel like responding to the rest of this nonsense from dex right now.

[AngryPidgeon]

Prodding Gorgon

[SaintKerrigan]

At the very least try to come up with someone, anyone else that is a suspect.

I'm not trying to be a dick even though I know it'll sound that way, but did you read my p639? I clearly have another suspect listed there. It even has a stand-alone case against the player irrespective of my thoughts on SlandaarScum {but it also throws nice points to reinforce them as Buddies... }.

I apologize, I did not see your case. It's actually irrelevant, though, since the point I was trying to communicate was that it's way too early to call for "it's him or me", it's just a waste of the day. Maybe later it'll still come down to Slandaar-d3x, but let's not rush that.

@ qwints: I don't know what you mean by "scum felt that conman was the obvscum". Could you clarify?

@ Slandaar: Why Gorgon?

[SaintKerrigan]

I definitely hear what you're saying with the 'it's too early' stuff, but this shit in MyLo/LyLo with both of us being Town {again, I

highly

doubt} loses the game. At least now, it's not as finite. It'll also give the remaining Town solid reads and stances to go off of if it goes down.

Again, how about we actually scumhunt around first before settling in on you-Slandaar. Who knows, maybe someone will claim scum.

[d3x]

I find the fact that d3x is pushing a Slandaar/conman/dun team incredibly disingenuous given that he didn't seem to think conman was obvscum on day 1.

This post is hilarious. Let me ask you, qwints... should I ignore the fact that Conman flipped Scum? Because I didn't think he was Scum yesterday, should I not use his play to build connections to find the other Scum?

In his world, despite the fact that townies were several townies, including d3x himself, were proclaiming conman as town, scum felt that conman was the obvscum.

Due in large part to poor grammar, I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying that I don't think there were any Scum on the counter Wagon? Are you calling me Town and then Voting me? I'm not sure what you are saying, please try again.

@ Slandaar: Why Gorgon?

Because he had to say something about someone else in this Game or prove me right that he's not doing anything but blatantly Tunnelling me and not helping the Town in any regard. Note he's not even building a case on me, he's just responding to mine.

[d3x]

Again, how about we actually scumhunt around first before settling in on you-Slandaar.

I am.

[qwints]

d3x, my point was you're advocating an internally inconsistent scenario.

If

you were town and right about the scum team (Dun, Slandaar, Conman) , you'd have to believe that, although you and several other townies were defending Conman, scum still thought they had to give up on conman. In addition, you'd have to believe that no wagon on town ever got above 3 votes despite the fact that there was a lot of town driven pressure on other players, e.g. aceofspades, havingfitz and malakittens.

Since those things don't make sense, and I believe that a town player would have thought through their scenario more and realized that, I conclude you're scum.

[d3x]

I believe that the Scum Team was boned as soon as people got on Conman's case. Those who fought for the Conman case were staunch advocates and were not going to let go; that was easy to see super early on {read Kthx and fitz in Iso for examples}. I refuse to believe that Scum stayed off of the Wagon, especially because assuming he wasn't Lynched D1, he would've certainly hung D2 or 3 at the absolute latest and that wouldn't look very good.

I believe that absta tried to defend against the Wagon, but didn't want to come across as hardlined as SiN or Meph/myself and threw in the towel when he realized that his play was inconsistent, scummy, and would be looked at very closely after the ScumFlip. Dun tried to amend that play by immediately jumping on the Wagon and not saying anything to screw it up or draw attention to himself.

Side note- a NonRandom Wagon got to L-3 on Kthx on page 1. It waxed and Waned, but got back to L-2 by page 3 {also not Random}. I've got a solid Town read on him, so I don't believe that...

no wagon on town ever got above 3 votes

Conman started gaining a Wagon in the middle of the Kthx Wagon and people weren't backing down as early as page 3.

[Gorgon]

Prod duly noted. I am back in my daily routine now and will most likely start following this game a lot better than I did over the holiday season.

What's your thoughts on SiN gorgon?

I already said my mind about him being likely town based on his day 1 behavior. But since you ask, I find his point about the absta vote on Conman and subsequent unvote on replacing out to be pretty convincing. It's also a consistent followup to his #571 where he gives reads based on Conman's ISO. Not seeing a strong case for him being scum yet.

Gorgon, if I read what you've said correctly, you do not think NS is scum, correct?

Yeah, based on the posts where he first says Conman has to be town due to how difficult it is to get him lynched and then flips it over to it meaning he's scum, a derailment of the thought process of a type that is a towntell to me and trumps the aspects of his play which could be considered scummy IMO. His content has been very minimal so far, especially today, and I would like to see more.

d3x, my point was you're advocating an internally inconsistent scenario.

If

you were town and right about the scum team (Dun, Slandaar, Conman) , you'd have to believe that, although you and several other townies were defending Conman, scum still thought they had to give up on conman.

Um, you do know that Slandaar wasn't on the Conman lynch, right? Also, you yourself were also amongst the ones pushing strongly for Conman's lynch while your claim that several townies were going so far as to defend Conman is something of an overstatement as far as I can tell. Especially on the pages leading up to Conman's lynch, the overall mood was much more 'Conman is obvscum or deserves a policy lynch' and SiN was really the only player to consistently defend him hard. You may correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I read it. Dun voting Conman right after NS states an intent to hammer Slandaar and asks him to claim also makes a lot of sense in this scenario, as Conman was very obviously a weaker player than Slandaar, so it was much better to just let Conman go than having Slandaar be forced to claim or even being lynched. To put it simply, with Dun/Slaandar/Conman being the scum team, Dun had to choose between scumpartners as one of them was obviously getting lynched at the end of the day - and that choice was pretty much a no-brainer.

So in short, your claimed inconsistency in d3x's case is simply not there.

[Kthxbye]

Why do I get the feeling that qwints is scummy in every game he plays?
VOTE: qwints

[Gorgon]

I've had a death in the family, should be able to post in a few days.

And oh, my condolences.

[qwints]

Why do I get the feeling that qwints is scummy in every game he plays?
VOTE: qwints

Because you're bad at reading me?

[Malakittens]

Actually. Qwints I find it funny that you thought if Con flipped scum then the team had to be Absta/me for the last scum yet you aren't pushing it and I literally mean not at all. Why's that?

>.>

vote: Qwints

I have my reasons presented somewhere in my earlier Day 2 post why I'm voting him now.

[d3x]

Hey qwints, care to discuss p664?

[Gorgon]

The d3x/Slandaar debate is giving me something of a headache, but I still think I can follow most of it. I have a few comments about it for now, maybe more to come later.

Anyways, anyone can meta me to see I never unbus when I am bussing, I ride the wagon the whole way (if you bus you need to get towncred from it) so I am pretty obvtown at this point considering I was the counterwagon to scum and meta etc.

This is plain ol' WIFOM. It shows clearly that you know what your usual bussing behavior is and that you deviated from it and then point out this fact in your defense. What's there to prevent us from suspecting that scum-you is doing this on purpose?

Dex replaces in again defends Conman using the VI defence and tries to start a counterwagon to save his buddy, Conman of course switches his town read on me to scum and sheeps him,

Dex ignores this

because he has to as there is no way to defend it even the VI defence doesn't work here.

You mean like this?

Conman, please let know exactly what swayed you from the last few pages.

Also, Conman (#414) was parroting me if anything, as he didn't add his vote to your wagon until I joined in and took d3x's side against you. Also, before I added my vote SiN had joined your wagon (#402), albeit with no stated reasoning. Conman had plenty of time to add his vote right after d3x's but he didn't until the wagon was gained some momentum.

It's also of note that Conman talks about us guys making some 'good points', which he also said in #318 when joining a wagon on fitz, explicitly parroting SiN whom I believe to be town. He also said it about confirmed townie Huntress in #126, although he wasn't joining a wagon then. This does, at mininum, suggest that Conman is not that simple to read that one can automatically assume that him parroting others means said others are his scumbuddies.

It is clear when he started to call me town was because I wasn't voting him any longer ie buddying.

This is a bit of a weasley statement. In the post immediately before your UnVote, you called him out as part of the 3man Scum Team.

Explain how you believe he flipped your Vote b/c it was no longer OMGUS, plz {whch is what you are implying}.

I don't quite understand what you meant by the bolded part.

[qwints]

@Mala, that point was based solely on the list conman gave and, if you read my iso, you'd see that I actually dismissed that possibility later on Day 1.

I'm willing to bet right now the scum team is conman, mala and absta based solely on that list. I'll reread to evaluate that.

I actually can't find anything that really substantiates my initial impulse.

Sure, my point was that your "scum" didn't get on several viable counter-wagons to conman after conman became the main target. Looking at it more closely, however, you do seem to have a point. Absta did jump on theaceofspades/malakitten's wagon with an OMGUS vote after I got off that wagon. Considering that absta was absent for the later half of day 2, it might be more plausible than I thought. And slandaar's lack of a counter-vote on conman at the end of day 1 is also pretty scummy. Maybe you're right about the set-up after all, and dun's last second switch doesn't clear him.

Re-reading day 1 has convinced me that your case is at least plausible. And the absta posts begging conman to get out do look pretty bad.

UNVOTE: d3x
VOTE: dunhamganger

[AngryPidgeon]

Vote Tally 2.3

qwints (L - 4):

Kthxbye, Malakittens

Dunhamganger (L - 4):

Singer is Nachomamma, qwints

Nobody Special (L - 5):

Saint Kerrigan

Slandaar (L - 5):

D3x

d3x (L - 5):

Slandaar

Pacifists (Not Voting):

Nobody Special, Dunhamganger, Gorgon

With 10 alive, it is 6 to lynch or 5 to "No Lynch".

Saint Kerrigan (L - 6):

Gorgon (L - 6):

KthxBye (L - 6):

Malakittens (L - 6):

Singer is Nachomamma (L - 6):

((expired on 2013-01-13 23:59:59))

[Kthxbye]

Grrr....slandaar needs more votes. Qwints last few posts give me a town vibe. I can also see the scenario in which slandaar and dun are the remaining scum. I can see other scenarios, but we can travel down this road for today.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: slandaar