Open 473: Jungle Republic GAME OVER

[Whiskers]

Justification: I've had to re-explain the same damn thing to the idiot so many times that my wording changed. I didn't check words or posts everytime I did it. I honestly don't remember if I called him town or not. I didn't mean to, although I had a little bitty townread on him (it was page one), but more importantly was the idea that they were not of the same alignment.

[Rob14]

@Everypony: I'm drawing a connection between Rob13 and Human Destroyer. As soon as an HD lynch comes on the table Rob loses his cool, doing such outrageous things as hopping on the biggest wagon and threatening to make a case.

Nice to know that stating my reads and stating that I will make a case when I have time are losing my cool and make "threats", respectively. You have an outstanding gift for overstatement.

Will still post my ProHawk analysis first-thing tomorrow. Twas a busy day.

[Sky]

Hey y'all just gotta quickly say don't expect a real post out of me today, I have senior thesis that needs finishing. Will return tomorrow.

[Tajun]

{ProHawk, HD, Whiskers}
Primary lynch candidates.
{Rob, Aldu}
Secondary lynch candidates.
{Anxiety, Thor, Auspicious}
Never lynch candidates.

VOTE: ProHawk

@ Majiffy: Please explain the 4nxi3ty read. I'll assume you have a good reason, if you are putting him in the Never lynch candidates group, and I'd like to hear it.

@Whiskers: Fine, better question smart ass. Why did you say "I thought HD was more likely townie for making the RVS vote on Thor" if you didn't believe it? And why are you denying that you said it when it is in black and white on page 1? You might want to try reading you're own quotes before you call other people idiots for quoting you correctly. BTW, "town-or-scumread" is just about the worst phrasing I have ever heard, if you mean null read just say that.

*goes to post #44*

@Thor: Of the two, one was more likely townie Than The Other.

Ald: It's picking up steam, so I'm wary. Why would a wagon pick up steam? If scum were supporting it.

Currently, I'm torn between listening & sheeping Rob (He's right, HD

has

shown newbishness) and putting my vote back on Pro, and saying, "Well then, let's lynch HD. If he flips scum, we'll look at you next".

Let me put it this way: I'm a bit of a pussy. For all the talk, lynching someone is still a big move and I'm nervous around actually doing it.

Give me a break. This has got to be the worst reasoning for switching off a wagon I have ever heard.
a) There are two scumteams. Even without anyone bussing (which is in no way guaranteed), a scum can get to L-2 without any trouble, especially if he is playing aggressively like Prohawk.
b) By this logic, you would never join any serious wagons.

I note also that you just joined a wagon with one person on, another expressing willingness to join (Majiffy) and myself and others expressing suspicion. Why join this one, if it is scum supported?

Long story short, your arguments don't make any sense, your little connection between Rob and HD screams of deflecting attention, and your inconsistencies in play are adding up beyond my suspension of disbelief. I also note that you have shown suspicion of all three moderately serious non-you candidates (votes on ProHawk and HD, and this little gem "Guys, Aldsukkel's a great lynch, I'm sure, but we can only do one a day and this guy is it."). Is it possible all three are scum? Sure, very long outside chance in this setup. Is it more likely that you don't care who we lynch as long as it isn't you? Why yes, yes it is! For all your talk of disliking wagons, you are front and centre on today's scoping of targets.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Whiskers

[Majiffy]

@ Majiffy: Please explain the 4nxi3ty read. I'll assume you have a good reason, if you are putting him in the Never lynch candidates group, and I'd like to hear it.

Anxiety reads town as fuck, just as do Aus and Thor. He's legitimately weighing arguments, asking relevant questions, and appears to be attempting to determine the alignment of the other players in the game.

[uctriton00]

will catch up on this game later, pdodge

[Whiskers]

{ProHawk, HD, Whiskers}
Primary lynch candidates.
{Rob, Aldu}
Secondary lynch candidates.
{Anxiety, Thor, Auspicious}
Never lynch candidates.

VOTE: ProHawk

@ Majiffy: Please explain the 4nxi3ty read. I'll assume you have a good reason, if you are putting him in the Never lynch candidates group, and I'd like to hear it.

@Whiskers: Fine, better question smart ass. Why did you say "I thought HD was more likely townie for making the RVS vote on Thor" if you didn't believe it?

Wow, you still don't get this? HD being townie for RVSing Thor is completely dependent on PH being scum. And, since there are two scumteams, it doesn't really help us determine his alignment at all. Why are you so hung up about this thing that I've said several times is not indicative of alignment? Why won't you let this thing go, even though I've explained it again and again and again?

And why are you denying that you said it when it is in black and white on page 1?

Already explained this, but not to you.

You might want to try reading you're own quotes before you call other people idiots for quoting you correctly.

I called YOU an idiot.

BTW, "town-or-scumread" is just about the worst phrasing I have ever heard, if you mean null read just say that.

But I didn't mean "null". I meant "either town or scum". Null is having no read. I was saying that this could give us a read that he was either town or (opposite) scum. Since we didn't have any flips, this information was useless.
Since this information is useless and you have had it explained to you about a thousand times now,
Why are you fixated on nothing? YOU have not done anything. You even have Prohawk thinking that I "keep bringing it up", when I'm only doing it because YOU won't stop nagging about "why did you call HD town?" when I've explained that I didn't-- and if I did, then I've at least explained what I meant.

*goes to post #44*

@Thor: Of the two, one was more likely townie Than The Other.

Ald: It's picking up steam, so I'm wary. Why would a wagon pick up steam? If scum were supporting it.

Currently, I'm torn between listening & sheeping Rob (He's right, HD

has

shown newbishness) and putting my vote back on Pro, and saying, "Well then, let's lynch HD. If he flips scum, we'll look at you next".

Let me put it this way: I'm a bit of a pussy. For all the talk, lynching someone is still a big move and I'm nervous around actually doing it.

Give me a break. This has got to be the worst reasoning for switching off a wagon I have ever heard.
a) There are two scumteams. Even without anyone bussing (which is in no way guaranteed), a scum can get to L-2 without any trouble, especially if he is playing aggressively like Prohawk.
b) By this logic, you would never join any serious wagons.

Ok. sorry.
Not sure what a) means. a scum can get to L-2 if he is playing aggressively? Don't scum want to

not

get to L-2? As for b): It's early in the game so none of my reads can be particularly strong. I'm not really ready for a lynch. And maybe I won't join any serious wagons. In fact, I'll see if I can purposely avoid big wagons, just for you.

I note also that you just joined a wagon with one person on, another expressing willingness to join (Majiffy) and myself and others expressing suspicion. Why join this one, if it is scum supported?

Who said it was scum supported? This one isn't close to a lynch. The other one was. Why would scum let one of their buddies get lynched so quickly on Day 1? They wouldn't. Instead, they would try to deflect attention away from that wagon, would try to get someone else lynched. HD has "support," but people

aren't

voting him. I'll point out that it's popular to be "suspicious" of your scumbuddy, but not actually vote for them. The rule of thumb I've seen is that you put bad-looking townies in slots 1 & 2 in your list of reads (scum to town), and your scumpartner in slot 3. [[I'll point out that you could argue, "maybe you're trying to keep your scumbuddy ProHawk from getting lynched!" but the reply is, "Then it is only a scumtell for me if Prohawk flips scum first." meaning that you have to lynch him before me for this tell to work.]]

Long story short, your arguments don't make any sense,

Oh? Point out where? You haven't said, "This doesn't make sense," You've just repeated yourself over and over again.

your little connection between Rob and HD screams of deflecting attention,

What am I deflecting attention away from, then? I saw a connection and pointed it out. I'm not calling for a Roblynch, I'm saying, "Look at this, this is what I'm seeing."

and your inconsistencies in play are adding up beyond my suspension of disbelief.

Oh? Point out where? By "inconsistencies" do you mean when I had to repeat and rephrase my answer to the same question

so many times that you were able to twist it into being scummy?

I also note that you have shown suspicion of all three moderately serious non-you candidates (votes on ProHawk and HD, and this little gem "Guys, Aldsukkel's a great lynch, I'm sure, but we can only do one a day and this guy is it.").

I actually have no opinion on Ald. Some people are saying, "He's scum! Lynch him!" and other people are saying, "He's so townie! Don't lynch him!" and I'm not really seeing any reason

to

lynch him. What's the case?

Is it possible all three are scum? Sure, very long outside chance in this setup.

What? What the fuck? How is it unlikely that all three are scum? It's just as unlikely that ANY 3 players are scum. There is literally exactly the same chance for any three players, chosen randomly, to all be scum.This is a non-point. You're making something out of nothing. That's scummy, don't you know?

Is it more likely that you don't care who we lynch as long as it isn't you? Why yes, yes it is! For all your talk of disliking wagons, you are front and centre on today's scoping of targets.

That may be more likely.

And actually, yeah, I'd say that's really more likely. I know

my

alignment. If anyone other than me is lynched, there's a greater chance of lynching scum. I know this, but you don't. Just like "Town needs to look good to lynch scum", "Town needs to not be lynched to lynch scum."



Let me ask again, in case you didn't read it:
Why is it that the only thing you've talked about all game is not useful to scumhunt or determine alignment?
Why have you asked repeatedly when I had already answered you?

[Whiskers]

Ok, maybe not the only thing.
Looking at your ISO you seem to be arguing with and about Anxiety, too.

[Majiffy]

Whiskers, if you could make your posts a little more aesthetically pleasing to look at, it would help a great deal.

[Thor665]

I'll admit I skimmed it all.
And still want to lynch you after doing so.

[Majiffy]

I'll admit I skimmed it all.
And still want to lynch you after doing so.

Oh you actually bothered to read some of it?

[Thor665]

I assuredly read the first two sentences.

[Majiffy]

You're a more dedicated man than I, Thor.

[Whiskers]

It's the last two sentences that were the most important.
I implore you to read them. The rest of the wall is just countering Tajun.

[Majiffy]

I'm going to assume you're referring to these;

Why is it that the only thing you've talked about all game is not useful to scumhunt or determine alignment?
Why have you asked repeatedly when I had already answered you?

The first is a leading question.
The second doesn't strike me as scummy. Just stupid.

Of course, the case could be that you're the scummy, stupid one and Tajun is acting appropriately.
So... You should probably aim to make your posts a little more reader-friendly.

[ProHawk]

Rob, I will wait for your case to refute your statements. Just want to say that "caught for the wrong reasons" doesn't make any sense to me. I also don't understand if you also think they are wrong reasons, or if your quote is just that you think I think that... if that makes sense. Regardless, I am sure you will make it more clear, eventually.

Thor, its an issue because there are other scummy people in this thread? I already explained how I feel you are playing this one, however its not a scum-tell rite?

ProHawk is content to sit on his vote on me which is highly convenient for him since I am more or less the competing bandwagon, at least from his perspective. Of course, he doesn't actually pressure me really, he just wants to ride on the wave of "Alduskkel is scummy" which is sadly once again taking hold in yet another town.

Not vote parking, you are my top scum-read. You realize that its hard to focus pressure on someone when most of your energy has to be spent in self-defense and people want to lynch you for being too aggressive right? Who are you talking about when you reference "another town"?

Also, you never addressed my point with my scum-read on you. Your vote was OMGUS on me right after I voted you. Why do you think I am scum? Has your read evolved past: "He votes for an easy target?"

[Thor665]

Thor, its an issue because there are other scummy people in this thread? I already explained how I feel you are playing this one, however its not a scum-tell rite?

It isn't - which is why I want you to explain why you believe it is to the point you are repeatedly prodding at me with it while also ignoring what I'm actually doing.

[ProHawk]

Sarcasm-noted. I saw you post about Whiskers, not sure how to take it yet though.

[Majiffy]

What is this supposed Thor-scumtell? Because as far as I can tell, the only one I can think of is being alive at LYLO.

[Josh Lyman]

Fourth Votecount

Alduskkel: (2) uctriton00, ProHawk
Human Destroyer: (2) auspicious, Whiskers
ProHawk: (4) Alduskkel, Sky, Majiffy, Rob13
Sky: (1) 4nxi3ty
Whiskers: (3) Thor665, Human Destroyer, Tajun

Not placing a Vote:

12 alive equals 7 to lynch, 6 to no-lynch

Deadline for Day One: (expired on 2013-02-03 22:50:36)

[Majiffy]

12 alive equals 7 to lynch, 6 to no-lynch

How do we get to 7 to lynch if we have to get through 6 first?

[Alduskkel]

Not vote parking, you are my top scum-read. You realize that its hard to focus pressure on someone when most of your energy has to be spent in self-defense and people want to lynch you for being too aggressive right? Who are you talking about when you reference "another town"?

Also, you never addressed my point with my scum-read on you. Your vote was OMGUS on me right after I voted you. Why do you think I am scum? Has your read evolved past: "He votes for an easy target?"

Oh heavens, poor you, unable to scumhunt because you're so busy defending. That's a scum excuse -- town scumhunt NO MATTER WHAT.

"Another town" (in the original quote) is actually referring to this town.

As for why I think you're scum, it's not just the fact that you are voting me, it is the way you are voting me, and what you're doing in the meantime. Your vote's on me, but it's not the kind of vote where town is striving to get a scumread lynched. Are you pressuring me or pushing my lynch? Not really. Is your vote safe (non-controversial)? Yes. Are you investigating any other scumreads? No. You've mentioned some, but you're not making any effort to make them uncomfortable.

You ask how my read has evolved, I ask how YOUR read has evolved, especially since I already addressed your "case" in post 41.

@Whiskers: And what are you going to do if people suddenly switch onto the HD wagon? Take your vote off again?
@Majiffy: You say if Thor is scum it'll be obvious in the endgame. Why? If he's scum, can we even afford to let him live to endgame?
@Rob13: Post 44 you say? I believe I already answered you in post 47.

People who need to post more content: uctitron, Sky, Human Destroyer

Side note: IGMEO Whiskers. He seems a bit too concerned with not being lynched. Or maybe concerned for the wrong reasons. Either way, he's pinging my gut a bit. (Not willing to vote for him though right now.)

[Rob14]

IT'S WALL TIME!

Here's my ProHawk case. But first, I'd like to mention that my Alduskkel read has slipped back to nullish. I re-read his ISO and the case wasn't that strong as compared to other reads I have. I might revisit him in the future when he has more content out. Whiskers is pinging a bit recently, but that's a discussion for another time. I'll follow up on that in a later post.

#25 is a bad reason to vote someone. "I think the reasoning for the vote on you is absolutely stupid, but you didn't respond to it, so you're scum" No. I wouldn't have responded to it either as town. The vote was so incredibly rediculous (lurking on page 1, lolwut?) that I wouldn't have even given it the time of day. I mean, what would you expect his response to be? Were you looking for a "You're an idiot" post from him? Now, this vote itself isn't an issue for me because it's page 1 and you're looking for a good place to vote. The strength with which you defend your vote in subsequent posts is a problem. You're making way more of an issue out of this than it really is. It seems forced to me.

#30 is not good. I do not like it. This two steps behind nonsense which you kept bringing up in subsequent posts is bad rhetoric. I agree with whiskers here to a degree. You're playing to Thor's ego and buddying up to him. This is not indicative of Thor's alignment, but it is indicative of yours.

This type of silly rhetoric is continued in #51. You're using fancy rhetoric instead of actually refuting the things that Whiskers is saying.

#72 is refusing to engage Whiskers. As town, I typically want to engage my scum reads to prove that they're wrong/scummy. Now, this certainly isn't the only way to play, but I don't see the town motivation in refusing to debate with Whiskers. There is certainly scum motivation in non-engagement, however.

#79 is more fancy rhetoric. Rhetoric over substance is a scum-tell in my opinion, when rhetoric isn't in your town meta (it's not, in ProHawk's case).

#91 made my scumdar ping a bit. This one is kind of gut, but the way in which ProHawk concedes that the argument he was using before is wrong but Whiskers is still scummy anyway doesn't sit well with me. It seems like he's focused too much on Whiskers for whatever reason. He hasn't really questioned anyone else, except for his relatively weak vote on Alduskkel (who he notably hasn't pressured much at all).

#96 is more fancy rhetoric.

#99 and suddenly Whiskers is null despite you pushing him as scum as recently as #91. You also say you're pursuing other directions, but you really aren't. You have your vote out on Alduskkel with no pressure. You haven't questioned him at all or built any case on him.

#103 is more playing to Thor's ego/buddying up to him. ProHawk could have just said, "could you explain that more" or something to that effect. Instead, he's saying that Thor is several steps ahead of him and will have to dumb things down to his level. That doesn't seem like the natural way for someone to phrase the message he's attempting to communicate.

#115 tries to tell me which game I should look at if I do meta analysis. No. Do not want. If I'm going to analyze your meta, I'm not going to let you choose the games I do it with. I'll choose your most recent games and read them. The fact that you're pointing me in a specific direction with regards to your meta is a red flag.

#146 has a few things. He puts me down as town because I'm not voting him or pressuring him yet. That's literally his reason. The Aldus read looks weak and it isn't supported very well. Has fully flipped his read on Whiskers despite focusing on him heavily early on. This last bit is gut, but the transition in his read of Whiskers doesn't feel genuine to me at all.

#165 is hard for me to explain, but it reads to me like he's caught for the wrong reasons. To clarify that based on a question ProHawk posed in #190, that means that I think ProHawk thinks that the reasons I'm using are wrong and unfair, but the conclusion is correct.

Out of all thats happened, I look the most scummy?

Why do you guys want to pick the non-obvious scum who actually isn't scum?

I haven't seen one good case for why I am scum and people keep jumping all over me.

This is the bit that is making me feel that way about this post. Especially the bolded bit reads to me like you're annoyed that you're being attacked for the wrong reasons. The "who actually isn't scum" bit is thrown in as an afterthought almost. I don't think town would call themselves "the non-obvious scum," even with a qualifer like "who actually isn't scum" after it. They would call themselves "a null read at worst" or "an obvious townie". Maybe this is only gut, as it's very different for me to explain, but this post gives me the impressions that you're pissed at the reasons people have caught onto you, not at the conclusion that you're scummy. Let me know if that doesn't make sense.

P-edit: In response to your comment towards me, Alduskkel, I don't see a connection between post #47 and post #44. If there is one, it doesn't adequately explain away my early suspicions.

[4nxi3ty]

This is why I'm not a fan of 4nx at the moment. The RVS point that he made is not indicative of alignment because it's something that scum could easily insert in to help them look town.

Why is there no followup pressure on this?
Was this only brought up because Tajun had recently voted me?
Didn't me unvoting your top scumread bother you?

[Rob14]

In order:

Limited time and you aren't at the top of my list of scum-reads. Also, your pressure on Sky in #167 read as genuine to me. The above post also makes me think you're genuinely scum-hunting. I wouldn't even put you in the scum read column at the moment.

No. Your post #52 was not scummy, in my opinion, and that was the entirety of Tajun's case. I had a null read on you up until #111, which gave me a slight scum read (which has since reversed itself).

No. If I expected all townies to have the same reads and follow the same leads as I did, then I would just play a game with myself. Your easing off of ProHawk reads genuine to me. You were asking him questions posts prior to where you unvoted him, which seems like a real attempt to figure out his alignment, and you didn't join another main wagon when getting off of the ProHawk wagon. This doesn't read as scum trying to get off their partner's wagon in a subtle manner. If you did that, I would expect to see you hop onto an existing competing wagon and make a more sudden change over. The whole transition reads town to me.

I'm talking myself into a stronger town read on you as I type this. I wouldn't call you strong town yet, but definitely a town read.