Open 473: Jungle Republic GAME OVER

[4nxi3ty]

to be fair you gave majiffy a ver convulted answer

[Whiskers]

Ok, I'm a simple cat. You know this. Where is the evidence in what you zeroed in on?

If Prohawk acts like this as both town or scum, then there's nothing to say this isn't scum play. It may not be a symptom of her alignment

, but she's done other things that make me think she's scum.

Okay? My point being is that there are a number of people voting ProHawk for what are provably bad reasons. They should either adjust or they should clarify that they have additional reasons.

This is post 313-- where do you say

why

the reasons we voted for ProHawk were scummy? You don't, you just say that they are "provably bad".

Zeroed it in for you.
You also just decided to handwave the reason you'd stated as a supporting point - proving my point.

You've said now that in this post, 313, there is evidence that the reasons are provably bad. Where is the evidence in that post?

I call you out on using the bad tell.
You respond, basically, that even if it's a null tell that ProHawk might still be scum (though, if it's a null tell it's still a pointless thing to bring up)
You then basically admit/accept it as a null tell and move away to retrench in your old case - proving my point that the tell is derp and people attacking over it are bad and consequently the wagon is currently bad.
Make sense now?

Ok, so people attacking Prohawk

Over That Point

are bad?
If I remember correctly, your list of four had four different reasons for voting?

Vote: ProHawk
For Appeal to Emotion, in addition to simply refusing to play ball.

There's one.

Also, this is the wagon at the time
Alduskkel, Sky, Majiffy, Rob13, Whiskers

So me calling you out is applicable.
There's two.

Uct was pushing without voting.
That's three.

And, this is your "list of four", correct?
If it is, my mistake, you only have three; you didn't cite reasons for anyone but Whiskers voting; one of those three isn't a vote.

But

this

is what really puts me on edge. If you're town, you can back up what you've said.

And you're not. You're spending as much time as possible Not backing up what you've said, avoiding answering the question until everyone has forgotten what the relevance of the question was-- just like scum.

I will mention again.
I *have* answered all of Majiffy's questions and he's now asking me to re-quote them for him so he can find them.
Could you tell me, specifically, which questions you think I haven't answered?[/quote]
No, becautse

I'm

lazy. You may have even answered them all by now, I don't know, because you spread it out over the course of like, three pages. No shit he's telling you to quote them.

[Whiskers]

Ok, so people attacking Prohawk

Over That Point

are bad?
If I remember correctly, your list of four had four different reasons for voting?


And, this is your "list of four", correct?
If it is, my mistake: you didn't cite reasons for anyone but Whiskers voting.

tl;dr

[Thor665]

@thor
there's a differenec between a lurky playstyle and intentionally playing under the radar. I'm getting vibes that it is the latter.

And you're saying as town he doesn't feel like that to you, yes?

never said you dodge questions, only said it was unclear what your goal was.

I can see majiffy trying to get you to commit to something.

I thought that was a question dodge accusation.
As to what I was trying to accomplish - I was calling the ProHawk wagon bad. I think even Majiffy grokked that much.

I never got the impression prohawk was refusing to respond.

I have given up so long as I am useless to the town. As soon as anyone cares to hear from me, I will be more than glad to join the fray.

It's the vibe I got - not you?

1. Ok, so people attacking Prohawk

Over That Point

are bad?
2. If I remember correctly, your list of four had four different reasons for voting?


3. And, this is your "list of four", correct?
4. If it is, my mistake: you didn't cite reasons for anyone but Whiskers voting.

tl;dr

I appreciate the tl:dr - I numbered them for ease of response.
1. Yes, that's exactly what I have been and am saying - when did I do otherwise?
2. You would remember incorrectly - all four had attacks directed at ProHawk over ProHawk going 'I'mma take my toys and go home' and that's why I called them out on it in general and alter specifically.

3. Yes, though I'm glad you backed off from complaining it was only three Though I was so ready to snark attack you for that.
4. Except you're again drifting into that Majiffy angle here. Again, note that I provide reasoning and show how all four are attacking/voting/strengthening their vote off the bad point.

You know who was willing to discuss i after I brought it up besides you?
Wait for it...no one.
Yeah. Case of win.

[Whiskers]

Yeah, because nobody but me actually fucking reads walls or quote wars.

Basically, can you point me to 4 (or three)? Can you quote where all of us hopped on (or expressed support, in that one guy's case), saying, "Gee what a dick" (in reference to ProHawk)?

I still have a little problem with it, since you said at first, we had to have other reasons and I know that I, speaking for myself, did. But that's not the point, so I'll leave it off to one side.

[Thor665]

1. It wasn't a wall when I said it.

2. Already did this - you even found the bulk of it yourself already.

3. I said that in response to you saying you did and indicated others should as well - I'm not sure what your problem with that is. I do still have an issue with you vaguely clinging to it even while admitting it wasn't a tell though.

[Alduskkel]

I'm here, sorry. I'll do my best to catch up quickly.

[Josh Lyman]

Seventh Votecount

Alduskkel: (4) uctriton00, Human Destroyer, auspicious, Thor665
Human Destroyer: (3) ProHawk, Whiskers, Tajun
ProHawk: (3) Alduskkel, Sky, Rob13
Sky: (1) 4nxi3ty
Thor665: (1) Majiffy

Not placing a Vote:

12 alive equals 7 to lynch, 6 to no-lynch

Deadline for Day One: (expired on 2013-02-03 22:50:36)

[Sky]

Why are people ignoring Sky's posts?

Because they're so forgettable.
Do you have a case on him, I haven't managed to recall that either - you should restate it.

that's kinda the point, sky has been playing in a way to not get noticed or step on as few toes as possible. He picked two people in prohawk and whisker to attack, two people who were already getting a lot of attention already, an attack that other people wouldn't really be bothered by. (also his reasons for thinking their scum felt weak imo)

his reaction towards me and comments about rob looked off.

Don't get what you are trying to accomplish with your posts towards majiffy. I can see majiffy trying to get you to commit to something.

You jumped off it because you like how handeled the fake L-1. What did you like about it?

He sounded townish, was calm. Didn't freak out or give up and lurk.

what is your read of hd, ucitron, and thor?

I'm glad you're still going on gut reads here.
I don't see the case for HD at all. He's really null at this point. Definitely not someone I want to see lynched today. I think he justs lacks confidence.
Ucitron kinda reminds me of myself. I have a feeling he's leaning town. Needs to post more though.
Thor, in light of recent events is leaning scum. Majiffy really had to split some hairs here but right now he's AtEing the case by claiming Majiffy is too lazy to find posts. He does like to defend me though, which I thank him for. He has some good points against you.

prohawk said he wanted to give up, but he didn't actually give up, he continued to post.

Read those posts again please.

@thor
there's a differenec between a lurky playstyle and intentionally playing under the radar. I'm getting vibes that it is the latter.

I'm happy you've got vibes. That definitely makes a good case.

[ProHawk]

I'm happy you've got vibes. That definitely makes a good case.

This is quite ironic coming from someone who admittedly has no solid case for my lynch.

Do you have a case on him

, I haven't managed to recall that either - you should restate it.

There isn't one, that's the thing.

He's attacking me for minimal involvement in this game. I've found scum, who has at the moment given up. He's good enough as dead for the time being.

[Sky]

You pushed a Whiskers lynch really strongly and then hopped off for reasons I cannot understand.
You'd rather lynch someone who has scum leanings than someone you actually believe is scum.
You AtE your way out of everything.
You have given up this game and you're not playing to your WinCo.

[ProHawk]

Oh look! You made a case. Now could you tell me how any of that is a scum-tell?

I can't change my reads or my votes or its scummy? My emotions were due to the crappy way town was playing at the time. Does someone with 57 posts (41 more than you) seem like someone who has given up on the game?

Not playing to my WinCondition?

You seem to have this notion that a lynch of a townie is not playing to their WinCondition... The last game that I was town and was lynched on Day 1 resulted in the immediate catch and lynch of scum because they did pretty much the exact same thing that was happening here. Care to read? It was also a town-win FTR.

So no, as long as town doesn't really suck it up and forces scum to help push my lynch, then my lynch will provide valuable and usable information.

[Sky]

I can't change my reads or my votes or its scummy? My emotions were due to the crappy way town was playing at the time. Does someone with 57 posts (41 more than you) seem like someone who has given up on the game?

You can change your vote all you want. What's weird is that you were dead set on the case, like unbudging. I'll admit you had a good case for Whiskers. But you dropped it, giving little reason. I don't see how you could change your mind just like that, unless it was some reaction test, which you have not stated as a reason. Then sure, go ahead and blame the rest of the town for your emotional bullshit. You are directly responsible for using AtE. While I concede AtE isn't a sure shot scum tell, it sure as shit isn't a town maneuver. And as for you using numbers, check mine below:

You seem to have this notion that a lynch of a townie is not playing to their WinCondition... The last game that I was town and was lynched on Day 1 resulted in the immediate catch and lynch of scum because they did pretty much the exact same thing that was happening here. Care to read? It was also a town-win FTR.

So no, as long as town doesn't really suck it up and forces scum to help push my lynch, then my lynch will provide valuable and usable information.

Ok yeah, martydom works sometimes. But you know what else? Here's some numbers. Getting lynched as town means one less townie. One less townie means plus one to the growing majority of scum. You know what happens when there's more scum than town? You're right, you guessed it, town loses. Lynching a townie helps

scumhunting

, but a dead townie will nevertheless help scum.

[ProHawk]

While I concede AtE isn't a sure shot scum tell, it sure as shit isn't a town maneuver. And as for you using numbers, check mine below:

Ok yeah, martydom works sometimes. But you know what else? Here's some numbers. Getting lynched as town means one less townie. One less townie means plus one to the growing majority of scum. You know what happens when there's more scum than town? You're right, you guessed it, town loses. Lynching a townie helps

scumhunting

, but a dead townie will nevertheless help scum.

So you're saying its a null-tell and yet use it in your case against me?

Good grief this logic is bad. You a half-glass empty kinda guy? You are completely ignore lynching probabilities: As the majority of scum grows, the more probable it will be to lynch them on a random lynch. When you can compare it to play, voting patterns, etc it makes it a whole lot more difficult for them to hide. A dead townie that scum had to work toward lynching will never help scum. If that townie was a shoe-in to lynch, then I might see where you are coming from. I would be willing to bet that most balanced games with competent scum get to LYLO. That is just how the game is played, townies get lynched.

[Whiskers]

While I concede AtE isn't a sure shot scum tell, it sure as shit isn't a town maneuver. And as for you using numbers, check mine below:

Ok yeah, martydom works sometimes. But you know what else? Here's some numbers. Getting lynched as town means one less townie. One less townie means plus one to the growing majority of scum. You know what happens when there's more scum than town? You're right, you guessed it, town loses. Lynching a townie helps

scumhunting

, but a dead townie will nevertheless help scum.

So you're saying its a null-tell and yet use it in your case against me?

Good grief this logic is bad. You a half-glass empty kinda guy? You are completely ignore lynching probabilities: As the majority of scum grows, the more probable it will be to lynch them on a random lynch. When you can compare it to play, voting patterns, etc it makes it a whole lot more difficult for them to hide. A dead townie that scum had to work toward lynching will never help scum. If that townie was a shoe-in to lynch, then I might see where you are coming from. I would be willing to bet that most balanced games with competent scum get to LYLO. That is just how the game is played, townies get lynched.

Holy shit.

Let me point out a couple of things:
You have been making TOWNIES work to try to lynch you.
Now, YOU are a shoe-in to lynch.
Even if we lynch a bunch of townies and raise the chance of catching scum, that means there are more scum, which is a bad thing. You know what would be even better than lynching all the townies and "making it a whole lot more difficult for scum to hide"? Catching scum. Be even better to have hiding scum, then have a group of players in which the scum don't have to hide, because All of them are scum. Are you seriously suggesting we should lynch a bunch of townies?

You don't have to be the glass half-empty kind of guy. It isn't bad logic. Town is capable of AtE, but you using AtE-- making yourself useless, whining about how nobody is listening to you, now saying that it's good to lynch a townie-- is not pro-town. At best, it's anti-town. Who does anti-town things? Scum. It benefits scum.

Similar to this: you are not playing to your wincondition (as town): trying to get yourself lynched, and being fucking useless, and using AtE instead of having a god damned brain and trying to defend yourself from accusations, these are all against your wincondition.

I don't want to play with this guy anymore. It's kind of gone beyond town/scum, I want him gone for playstyle. He's idiotic. Being lynched for being a shit player maybe will encourage him to become a better player.

[Human Destroyer]

I like how you're voting the same person as him despite all this

(Psst, it's me)

[auspicious]

I like how you're voting the same person as him despite all this

(Psst, it's me)

You forget that there are two scum teams.

[ProHawk]

Grow a pair Whiskers and make a post without using personal attacks.

[ProHawk]

Are you seriously suggesting we should lynch a bunch of townies?

Way to try and spin my argument. Also I love the call for lynching me without actually switching your vote.

Townies get lynched, it happens. That was my point, not once did I suggest lynching townies. If I even thought that way, I could have voted myself off. Maybe you should try and keep your emotions at bay and then maybe you could see what I am saying.

[auspicious]

sky, normally bombtastic? no idea, don't see why that matters.

thoughts? you care more about the arguing than getting reactions.

prohawk said he wanted to give up, but he didn't actually give up, he continued to post.

Alright, well, I'm still trying to get caught up, but it's really looking like the ProHawk/Whiskers argument is that of two townies. Honestly, the scum are probably just sitting back and enjoying seeing the town fight itself (Sky, HD, Aldus, etc.). I've noticed that a lot of times, two townies will go at each others throats and step on each others feet during the early stages of the game. It's important to not let personal quarrels get in the way of scumhunting.

Majiffy's push on Thor is interesting, though. Majiffy is my hardest townread atm (although he could just be a good townteller...), but Thor is looking fairly town to me as well. And honestly, Majiffy made a good point earlier that if Thor is still alive at lylo, he's probably scum. Either way, he's not a good d1 lynch. If he's scum, sure, we got him, but we can easily lynch scum elsewhere today. If he's town, we've lost a powerful town player. It's really not worth the gamble at this point.

I'm actually going to go back and

Vote: Human Destroyer

since it seems there's more support for it now. I still think Aldus is probably scum, but HD is the most blatant atm.

4nxiety, while I could see Sky being scum, I really don't see the merit of voting completely apart from the crowd. Honestly, I could really see a Sky/HD team atm; I think your vote is of more use somewhere else (namely on HD or Aldus).

[auspicious]

Whoops, forgot to first

Unvote

, and then

Vote: Human Destroyer

[Tajun]

Who's flips would you like to see for determining his alignments? Do you see obvious potential partners, or what?

I don't discuss hypotheticals. I have some stuff in my notes, but it's all contingent on my assumptions regarding the alignments of others being correct, which is not always the case. Discussing a hypothetical situation for IF we lynch a specific person and IF that person flips scum is a waste of the town's time.

---

I stopped reading the Majiffy v Thor slap-fight around half a page ago. Answer this for me, Majiffy. What is the scum motivation for what Thor's done? It looks to me like you're splitting hairs with him over the exact meaning of his original post without actually establishing that scum-Thor would be more likely than town-Thor to do all this.

Don't like this. It's too easy to interpret any kind of a flip as scummy (or towny for that matter) on another, unless you make a prediction you are just being wishy washy saying you want to wait for flips. If you think a particular flip would change your opinion, say so and say which one. Otherwise, you are just leaving your options open to make a case later in any scenario, which reads as pretty scummy from where I am sitting.

I still prefer Whiskers

, for the record, but this guy is a good second choice.

Why vote me if you prefer Whiskers?

Oh, by the way, Aldus is still scum, you guys should all join his wagon

Because he has had lots of pressure, and people don't seem to register the fact that his responses have been ridiculous. You could use some more pressure, and you're a very good lynch in my books. You're a very close second, btw.

Oh, by the way, Aldus is still scum, you guys should all join his wagon

Tell me why. I don't see him as that bad anymore.

But first, I'd like to mention that my Alduskkel read has slipped back to nullish. I re-read his ISO and the case wasn't that strong as compared to other reads I have. I might revisit him in the future when he has more content out.

My early suspicions are just that - early. They weren't that substantial. Don't get me wrong - Alduskkel is still on the scummy side of null. He's certainly not screaming townie. He also hasn't acted as scummy as my other scum reads, though.

In other words, think of my reads like a line. Early on, Alduskkel was the player closest to the scum side of the line, but he still was never terribly far from the center. Alduskkel hasn't moved on the line, but other people have moved past him by doing things that are more scummy than him.

These quotes strike me as off. Alduskkel comes in, acts in a way you deem scummy, then disappears, and he first slips back to nullish for his trouble then back to maybe a bit scummy? You don't seem too sure what you think of him, and, frankly, the scummiest thing I have seen from him is that he disappeared after pressure started to fade on him, leaving us to make cases on other targets and ignore him. You seem to be not troubled by this. If he flips scum, I'm looking at you next.

[Tajun]

BTW Auspicious, you don't need to unvote before voting for it to count. Some people appreciate it, but most people have votes up usually anyway, so the unvote is implied.

[Majiffy]

Get to this tomorrow

[Josh Lyman]

uctriton00 has been prodded.