Open 473: Jungle Republic GAME OVER

[Sky]

My questions for you are these. Why are you sticking the vote on me when there are a host of other dodgy candidates to choose from (like your top scum read)? Secondly, why are you even choosing a candidate from this list when with the current state of affairs, none will most likely be lynched? Are you just afraid to pick a side?

1. My vote has been on Aldus the other 90% of the game, pay attention
2. Define me the current state of affairs, and how I am not in any of them.

Then why'd you change?

Current state of affairs=the shit that has recently gone down regarding Thor. Whether he will get the lynch. Not sure if I understand the second part of that question. What I can say is that all you have said on the matter is this:

Thor and Majiffy = gigantic distractions. If I had to put money down on it, I'd say Majiffy won the beat down. As far as alignment goes, I'll buy them as being opposite sides. The "winner" of the bout would then knock out the other massive player and then try to run the game at that point.

Perhaps you could stop beating around the brush and say what you actually feel. Opposing sides doesn't mean much.

When did Sky accuse us of that? *goes to look*

I accused you of AtE on your initial case on ProHawk, because it was very AtE filled. I don't believe I've accused Anxiety of this.

In fact, show me one post where I've "dodged" something.

I've addressed issues I've

felt needed addressing when I posted.

That is precisely the issue at hand.

[uctriton00]

Then why'd you change?

Because you weren't answering or even trying to engage me, other than saying "eh I don't know I'm not sure hmmmmmmm".

Thor vs Majiffy? I'm null on them both. I just know that they're not aligned. The only thing I have is that Majiffy's approach was more aggressive than Thor. I'm not going to pull a guess out of thin air with that.

[Thor665]

Showing what, you answering questions pertaining to why someone is scummy?

Basically - show me a game which you feel shows my 'normal town meta' that I'm not playing to.
This shouldn't be hard, functionally you could just pick any of them, right?

The list of dodgy people in this game is just too much though. We have Thor, HD, Anxiety, aiduskel, uct... maybe throw Rob in there. If it all persists Day 2, I'll be happy to join wagons. But right now, I just see it as well...meh.

How and what have I dodged?

I never mentioned anything about what sky's possible town play felt like. I was explaining why I felt his lurking earlier was scum motivated.

So you apply lurking as a generic and good scumtell?

You could've simply said, "PH wagon is bad, this is why," and left it at that. Still not sure why the semi-circular argument with majiffy was neccessary.

1. I did exactly that.
2. The circular argument was because Majiffy said - who are the people being bad on the wagon, specifically and I told him to go look himself, and he said 'nuh-uh' and then it went from there.

iiuc, Thor as town, is bullheaded and annoying. As scum, he is bullheaded and annoying. He'll convince you he's god's gift to mafia, until you see him fail that first time. Thing is, he's just as likely to fail at catching scum as either alignment.

So...basically like most of mafiascum, right
That said - have you weighed in on the case on me? I don't feel you have. You can have more insults in there if you wish to spice it up, but I'd like your opinion stated.

Majiffy is probably town this game, Thor is probably not.

Why?

I just know that they're not aligned.

Why do you know that?

[Human Destroyer]

Because he's just not playing like scum Majiffy; it feels more like genuine scumhunting than...I don't even know how to describe his scumplay so I'll stop there.

Also I like Majiffy's arguments, therefore I'll be sheeping them.

[Thor665]

So you think Majiffy is town because of his play and your awareness of his meta.
Okay, why am I probably not town?

[Human Destroyer]

Also I like Majiffy's arguments, therefore I'll be sheeping them.

[Sky]

Because you weren't answering or even trying to engage me, other than saying "eh I don't know I'm not sure hmmmmmmm".

I admit to missing your first question about how you remind me of me awhile back. Show me where I say "hmmm."

Also seconding Thor's question as to how you know they're different alignments. Bussing does exist.

How and what have I dodged?

The whole making Najiffy find quotes towards the end of the massive back and forth. And some of the posts where you just come in and say blanket statements like "pedantic" or "you bore me."

[Thor665]

Also I like Majiffy's arguments, therefore I'll be sheeping them.

...okay, in your own words describe how that makes me scummy? His arguments that is.

How and what have I dodged?

The whole making Najiffy find quotes towards the end of the massive back and forth. And some of the posts where you just come in and say blanket statements like "pedantic" or "you bore me."

Yeah, but what questions did I dodge?
I called him 'pedantic' not because he asked me a question but because he said that since I'd used the word 'prove' and he didn't agree with my case then I hadn't 'proved' anything and was scummy. There's nothing to answer there. Also, though I told him to look the stuff up himself, when he threw a hissy fit I did it for him...so, if I did dodge then I did also answer, and at that point you need more than saying I dodged once to make it scummy I would think. Or is any delay in answering scummy immediately? Because Majiffy has done so just as much as I have, so...? (for the record, i don't think that makes him scummy, but, then I don't think it makes me scummy either) Just focus me in on your beliefs here.

[Human Destroyer]

...okay, in your own words describe how that makes me scummy? His arguments that is.

See, here's a problem

If I find an argument good on it's own, there's no reason to restate it

There just isn't

Why are you so concerned about me justifying a vote on you where I used someone else's reasoning that I clearly liked?

Is it trying to make me doubt Majiffy? Is it an attempt at discrediting me?

[Sky]

Yeah, but what questions did I dodge?
I called him 'pedantic' not because he asked me a question but because he said that since I'd used the word 'prove' and he didn't agree with my case then I hadn't 'proved' anything and was scummy. There's nothing to answer there. Also, though I told him to look the stuff up himself, when he threw a hissy fit I did it for him...so, if I did dodge then I did also answer, and at that point you need more than saying I dodged once to make it scummy I would think. Or is any delay in answering scummy immediately? Because Majiffy has done so just as much as I have, so...? (for the record, i don't think that makes him scummy, but, then I don't think it makes me scummy either) Just focus me in on your beliefs here.

I called you dodgy but I did not say you dodged questions. I also said dodginess is null, and as you can see I am not voting you for this reason.

If I find an argument good on it's own, there's no reason to restate it

Yes there is. If the voter is trying to defend themselves, it is best to force the case in to apply more pressure. That is, if you really want to see them lynched. A vote isn't always enough.

[Thor665]

@Human

I just want to hear you describe it - if it's worth a vote clearly it's worth mentioning the high point(s?) that sold you.

It *is* an attempt to discredit you - yes. I thought that was fairly clear. I honestly didn't think you could do it, and you're proving me right thus far.

@Sky

So...what are you saying about me and or Majiffy? Just, mentioning null stuff in a passing way for kicks or something?

[Human Destroyer]

It *is* an attempt to discredit you - yes. I thought that was fairly clear. I honestly didn't think you could do it, and you're proving me right thus far.

I thought I was quite lacking in credit already, but if you insist.

-Dodging and dancing around answers to Majiffy's inquires about why the people on ProHawk's wagon were on there for "provably bad" reasons.
-Forcing Majiffy to prove you wrong rather than you proving that you're right; if you're right, why can't you prove it?

[Sky]

I'm saying this:

Majiffy has won the argument against you. You've been doing dodgy stuff that makes you null. This is significant because you've lost your standing as pro-town.

But I am not going to lynch you today because there are better candidates.

[Thor665]

-Dodging and dancing around answers to Majiffy's inquires about why the people on ProHawk's wagon were on there for "provably bad" reasons.
-Forcing Majiffy to prove you wrong rather than you proving that you're right; if you're right, why can't you prove it?

Two questions;

You are aware I did answer the questions, right?
Second, I never actually asked him to prove me wrong, I asked him to call me a liar before I'd bother to put in the effort to prove I wasn't - does that change the way you interpret the response?

Majiffy has won the argument against you. You've been doing dodgy stuff that makes you null. This is significant because you've lost your standing as pro-town.

If I went from town to null then being dodgy can't be a null tell, right? Because if a town does something null then it would make them town, yes?
What did I do that was scummy?

[Human Destroyer]

1) I'd need to go back and read it again to confirm this (probably sometime tomorrow), but IIRC it took you like 3 pages to just answer the question, which

is

dodging the question.

2) No not really.

[Human Destroyer]

Stupid submit button.

Amendment to #2: You should be proving why you're right whether or not Majiffy is calling you a liar.

[Sky]

I see the issue here. We have different takes on null. I'll come up with another shitty analogy. Say you're baking a desert. You want to make it as delicious as possible, so you add sugar and spice and everything nice. That's pro town behavior. If you wanted to make it taste like shit, you'd add arsenic and burn it and add other foul ingredients. That's scummy behavior. But you could just make it bland, by adding bland ingredients, by being null, by being dodgy. It's not a desert you spit out and throw off the table, but it's something that you don't take seconds on, and can't say you full heartedly enjoyed.

[Thor665]

1) I'd need to go back and read it again to confirm this (probably sometime tomorrow), but IIRC it took you like 3 pages to just answer the question, which

is

dodging the question.

So you read his case well enough to know how good it was - but you didn't read me well enough to notice me answer the questions?

Whut?
Also, kay, why is dodginess inherently scummy in this instance whether or not I answered the questions?

Amendment to #2: You should be proving why you're right whether or not Majiffy is calling you a liar.

I told him to go look it up.
He said - naw, I'm lazy.
I said, no, I'm lazier.
He said, nope, I'm the laziest.
I said, well at least call it a lie I'm making so I have some motivation to do the research to rub it in your face later.
He said 'sure'
So I did the research and answered the questions.

So...what was my obligation there?

[Thor665]

@Sky - has this always been your stance on town, null, and scum?
As in - I could dig through old games of yours and find this exact sort of conversation?

[4nxi3ty]

So you apply lurking as a generic and good scumtell?

no, If i thought this i would have scumreads on aus and taj which i don't, they are probably my strongest townreads.

1. I did exactly that.
2. The circular argument was because Majiffy said - who are the people being bad on the wagon, specifically and I told him to go look himself, and he said 'nuh-uh' and then it went from there.

except you didn't go into specifics, which is what majiffy wanted, until several posts later. Majiffy said your motivation was avoing taking an actual stance. Maybe you can tell your side and explain your motivation for being stubborn about it?

I get you. I call this active lurking. Confusion diffused.

can you further explain this comment?

[Thor665]

So you apply lurking as a generic and good scumtell?

no, If i thought this i would have scumreads on aus and taj which i don't, they are probably my strongest townreads.

I'm feeling like this read on him is summed up as 'gut' currently - am I right?

except you didn't go into specifics, which is what majiffy wanted, until several posts later.

I went into specifics with my issue with the case immediately.
I went into specifics of the people performing the tell after he convinced me to bother to get him names. At which point was it scummy delaying?

Majiffy said your motivation was avoing taking an actual stance. Maybe you can tell your side and explain your motivation for being stubborn about it?

My position is that I took multiple stances - four to be exact, and quite specific ones too.
I don't understand how that makes me avoiding a stance - his point was that I was trying to avoid giving a stance...even though the info was all there he just wanted names. then he got names and said I took too long to give them so now it doesn't matter (even though my initial point was 'wagon bad' not 'I want to call certain players scummy' and I explained the 'wagon bad' point immediately since it was my point.

I've also explained my motivation for being stubborn about it - reference the answer to HD above.
I'm still waiting to hear how it's scummy - all Majiffy is even managing at this stage is "it's not Thor's obv. town game, which he does as town, because he's helpful, and Thor's scum meta is that he immediately becomes unhelpful - because he's such a bad player he is always helpful as town and not helpful as scum and hasn't figured out this is a hole that allows people to read him" which I've called derpy as a tell, and other people have heralded as rather brilliant and him 'winning' the debate.

Which makes me think all of them are kinda derp too, naturally.

[auspicious]

And is that all you have on him uctriton? There are people out there seriously in need of lynching, I don't really think he is one of them.

I'm not letting Aldus nor Sky hide in the background of the game.

Quite frankly, this is unhelpful. There are several people who are pinging my scumdar, but they can wait for a later date. Splitting the vote this much only helps scum.

[4nxi3ty]

@thor
you gave a general response in post 316. You didn't go into any specifics until post 339.

idk about the lazyness explanation. The amount of effort it would take to look up name is less than the effort you put into arguing with majiffy about it.

(tbh i don't think your play was lynchworthy, but i do think it is more than reasonable for majiffy to be suspicious of you)

Sky has been using AtE as a buzzword. Has tried to fly under the radar, changing his playstyle when being called out on it. And his attack on PH felt like scum trying to push a lynch through, instead of trying to discern alignment.

[Sky]

@Sky - has this always been your stance on town, null, and scum?
As in - I could dig through old games of yours and find this exact sort of conversation?

Huh?

Sky has been using AtE as a buzzword.

Da fuk?

Has tried to fly under the radar, changing his playstyle when being called out on it.

Yeah me and half the players in this game. What's your point? How have I changed my playstyle?

If

I have improved my playstyle, would you rather have me revert to flying under the radar? Is trying to improve the town's opinion of me a scummy move when I could just as easily do it as town to avoid getting myself lynched and in turn, preventing a mislynch?

And his attack on PH felt like scum trying to push a lynch through, instead of trying to discern alignment.

Sweet another gut read. Come back when you have a real argument.

[Thor665]

@thor
you gave a general response in post 316. You didn't go into any specifics until post 339.[/qiuote]
Again, this is 'specifics about names' which I already agreed I didn't do specifics of right away - because that wasn't the point I was even trying to make when I brought the whole thing up. I was calling a wagon bad, I wasn't calling people scummy. The point was to show the bad logic being used which I explained immediately when I brought up my issue, it was majiffy who wanted names and me who was lazy about giving them to him, but the names all lined up with the original issue I raised so clearly my issue existed then and I understood people were doing something they were doing and that I had issue with.
Also - if that's your scummy delay then I did it to cleverly manage a delay of...six hours.
Amazing of me.

his attack on PH felt like scum trying to push a lynch through, instead of trying to discern alignment.

Any particular quote for that?

@Sky - has this always been your stance on town, null, and scum?
As in - I could dig through old games of yours and find this exact sort of conversation?

Huh?

I really don't think that is difficult to understand, but I'll try to change it up for you;

Is your current expressed stance towards town/null/and scum tells something new for you - or have you been doing it for some time now and in other games?

Hope that makes sense.