Open 474 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over!

[Human Destroyer]

It isn't my birthday yet. Time zones?

Thanks anyway ^_^

[serrapaladin]

As a general rule, mist early D1 wagons are town just due to the nature of them.

is bullshit.

Disagreeing with the reasons for a wagon is discourse. It forces people to make their accusations more concrete and substantiated. I'm suspicious of people that call others scummy because they disagree with a popular opinion before a flip.

[serrapaladin]

Yup, that'll be the time difference, I already see a slice of cake next to your name.

[Human Destroyer]

serra, what do you think of #231?

[Docteur Gudsight]

Serra
Venrob
Nic Cage

Cool, that question was only like 30 posts ago. How do you feel about reasons?

Reasons would be super nice. What would be even better is a reference to posts that you found scummy.

--


Also, after internal debate,

Vote: Josh

. L-1.

~ Els

[serrapaladin]

Regarding 231, I disagree with it.

Regardless of KX's alignment, we want him to post stuff that isn't just about himself. If he's town, we get some genuinely useful input. If he's scum, he's much more likely to slip up if forced to make concrete judgments and connections. Josh pointing that out doesn't look scummy to me. I also find it too early to give him a scumread based on the potential hypocrisy of his read on KX, as the game really hasn't developed for long enough to gauge overall contributions.

Hey Els, in how far do you agree with Mehdi's list of scumminess?

[Cheery Dog]

Cheery were our reasons for voting josh the same as hd? Were nic's reasons the same?

I did say most people had the same reasons. Which if I'm really correctly are the not giving content, attacking someone else for not giving content about other people and other anti-town things.

Actually that might just be my own reasons for believing him scummy, and they fit in with everyone elses.

And putting that feeling into words means I'm actually now not convinced at all that he is scum. Venrob's L-1 vote is still from scum though, not sure if it's just to get on a buddies wagon though.

[Docteur Gudsight]

If you'd like I can answer. I know what reads we aren't agreed upon (while we don't agree on everything we do discuss things). Jacob isn't a town read for els, you're close to null, and hd is a null/weak scum read.

I gave other reasons for your scumminess. And it's held more consistently since when I voted early on. Lastly the read could be 90 percent dependent and it'd be fine. You can use it as a town tell if you'd like if josh flips town. I don't think that's going to happen.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

201, 199, and 215 are the long version of that cheery if it helps.

And serra the not having town reads is how you're treating the reason some are using to trust KX more. I'm saying blind for stuff like:

"So does someone want to post some quotes from Josh that are actually scummy?"

and 201 had several quotes, while 199 had a list of post numbers (which work like quotes if you aren't lazy)

~M

[serrapaladin]

Lastly the read could be 90 percent dependent and it'd be fine.

So you're certain enough of Josh being scum that you're willing to base a massive scumread on me defending him. That certainty concerns me.

The full quote you're referring to is:

So does someone want to post some quotes from Josh that are actually scummy? He's not holding up or derailing town's scumhunting, as extensive or wrong self-metaing does. It seems to me his only crime is not having posted anything particularly pro-town, despite having made a few posts. I personally still prefer that to Spencer, who hasn't even given us a few fluff posts to base a preliminary read on.

I think I made it implicitly clear that I disagree with the reasoning from 199 and 201 being enough for a lynch, rather than completely ignoring it. I really wanted to hear a full rebuttal from Josh, so of course I wasn't going to be explicit about all of my objections (on that note, I find it rather concerning that there are few questions posed at Josh directly). Although I don't find him particularly scummy, I'm not certain either way, so it's still a better idea to let him answer his accusations. My 255 makes some of my objections more explicit, after HD gave me little choice.

As to my dislike of extreme townreads, I would like to remind you of the current game setup.

It's worth pointing out that forcing people to make everything explicit isn't necessarily protown. For example, I would contend that everyone giving a full ranking of scumminess, rather than individual town and scum reads, is actually advantageous to scum. I'll post mine if people insist, but genuinely don't think it's a great idea.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Benefits of explictness:

Clarity
General atmosphere usually contains more discussion if you're clear on everything instead of posting just some parts

Con:

Scum can night kill better

The one con is fine with me in exchange for making people talk more. I'd rather scum know who the best kill is then have to be quieter which just usually has less trust in the town and the less divided people are and more trusting they are the more work usually is done. Town blocks have worked pretty awesomely in the past (it sucks to the townies that don't look town enough to be a part of the block but for people in it just adds unity).

And it can concern you I have a scum read on you. Re writing what I say is nice rhetoric, but I understand what I'm thinking. I can be very confident in my scum reads when I form strong ones (which has the sucky disadvantage that at times I don't have a single strong enough scum read and am not sure who to really vote).

~M

[CityElectric]

Spencer22 never picked up his prod, and as such, will be replaced.

[Human Destroyer]

Regarding 231, I disagree with it.

Regardless of KX's alignment, we want him to post stuff that isn't just about himself. If he's town, we get some genuinely useful input. If he's scum, he's much more likely to slip up if forced to make concrete judgments and connections. Josh pointing that out doesn't look scummy to me. I also find it too early to give him a scumread based on the potential hypocrisy of his read on KX, as the game really hasn't developed for long enough to gauge overall contributions.

Now I see why serra is prob-scum.

Talking to a "scumread" as if they're town is a blatant scumslip.

I also made a whole goddamn case on Josh Lyman's lack of contribution. The fact that he's calling out KX for the same thing he's doing is, in fact, hypocritical and scummy.

Josh/Jacob/serra is my D1 scum team guess. Questions?

[serrapaladin]

No, it really isn't.

You should really want even your strongest scumread to contribute as town. There's a good reason people are asked to give their last reads before they are lynched. If they do flip town, you can go over what they have posted as coming from a confirmed townie. If you have instead just told your scumreads to shut up, you won't have anything to go off, only one more dead townie. If the person is scum, by forcing them to contribute, you're making it more likely for them to slip. If someone self-meta's all game long, it's impossible to form any associative reads and very difficult to get even a normal read. Rather than calling my response scummy, please explain why you disagree with it. Do you not want your scumreads to be posting their reads?

Had someone you consider more useful than Josh told KX to stop being useless, would that have been equally scummy? Why is hypocrisy scummy?

Mehdi: I would again remind of the setup we're playing. There is by default a townblock of three. By trying to form an explicit townblock you are exposing the masons and giving well-played scum a chance to slip into the block, which is pretty much game over the way you are tunneling. You're also telling scum exactly how they're doing, so they can adjust their strategy accordingly.

I don't like blind trust, I don't like L-1 wagons based on a subpar case and I really don't like D1 overconfidence.

[CityElectric]

Votecount 1.6

Josh Lyman (L-1):

KX, ArcAngel9, Human Destroyer, NicCage, Venrob, Docteur Gudsight

Venrob (L-4):

goodmorning, Cheery Dog, serrapaladin

Klick (L-6):

JacobSavage

Not voting (4):

Spencer22, Josh Lyman, Klick

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-02-06 11:00:00)

ArcAngel9 has been prodded. I'm still looking for a replacement for Spencer22

Also, happy birthday, Human Destroyer!

[Human Destroyer]

Thanks mod ^_^

[Docteur Gudsight]

Josh/Jacob/serra is my D1 scum team guess. Questions?

Yes, two questions:

1) Can you explain me how this correponds to "Talking to a "scumread" as if they're town is a blatant scumslip.":

Regardless of KX's alignment, we want him to post stuff that isn't just about himself. If he's town, we get some genuinely useful input. If he's scum, he's much more likely to slip up if forced to make concrete judgments and connections.

2) If you had to give a % chance of Josh being scum, and of your whole team Josh/Jacob/serra being correct, what would it be?

~ Els

[Human Destroyer]

1) Because you're right, she is being a little more stubborn in defending Lyman than I would think she would as town. She's complaining that the case on Lyman doesn't make sense (it does) and that he is "being attacked for being null" which I've said repeatedly he isn't.

2) Somewhere between 80-85%, although I dislike using numbers to personify how I think someone will flip. Of the team being correct? I'd say it's weaker, probably more around 50-60%, simply because we haven't had any flips yet.

[Human Destroyer]

Do you not want your scumreads to be posting their reads?

Had someone you consider more useful than Josh told KX to stop being useless, would that have been equally scummy? Why is hypocrisy scummy?

1) (and paragraph before it) No, that's not what I mean. He was talking to KX as if he knew KX was town. That is the scummy thing here. If he was saying it sort of like "Well, if you really are town, stop talking about yourself", but no, he went and talked to KX like KX was town. Meaning he was voting KX knowing full well he was town. Meaning Josh is scum.

2) Yes.

3) Hypocrisy is scummy because you're calling someone out for doing something scummy while you're doing that exact same thing, therefore emulsifying the scumminess factor of said action and, in essence, calling yourself scum.

[serrapaladin]

I also dislike using numbers, but yours made me laugh.

I keep saying I disagree with the Josh case because I do. Most of the things you see as scumtells are really just nulltells. Why are you saying town shouldn't be stubborn if they believe in something?

Josh really didn't talk to KX as though he knew KX was town. You repeating this over and over doesn't make it any more true or logical.

Your answers 2 and 3 are mutually exclusive. If someone more useful than Josh telling KX to stop being useless is equally scummy, it's not Josh's hypocrisy you find scummy. Hypocrisy in general is not a scumtell, it just says that someone didn't think about their post carefully enough, which happens on both sides. Furthermore, I don't actually find Josh hypocritical at all, as his criticism was directed against unsolicited self-meta, rather than generic uselessness. Notice how he didn't criticize Spencer for not contributing, or Venrob self-metaing after Jacob asked him to.

[JacobSavage]

Pretty sire there was something I was supposed to do ..

[goodmorning]

WALL POST AHOY
Here's the expanded list I promised I'd do before now.

Towniest
HD- Posts a lot. This is something that could go either way, as effort does not correlate with alignment, but what he's putting in is pretty constructive. I would point in particular to his feelings on the Josh wagon. 215 and 216 especially are deliciously Town. 267 and 268 are quite alright too.
He does do some flip-flopping early on, but that's not necessarily unusual for early D1.
Only post of his I'm kinda iffy on is 262.
And Happy Birthday as well.

CD- 67 looks Town, I don't see scum making a huge deal out of something weird like that. 147 is good, as is 158. 158 in particular is sort of an interesting way to go about scumhunting. 205 is pretty Town, too. 218 is a little strange, but he's another one I'm reading pretty Town.

KX- I actually moved him up a jot. Despite the ridiculous "this is how I play" diatribe, I think most of his stuff is pretty Town. Honestly, guy, your posts do read kind of emotional, but I think that's just your writing style. 163 is one of the most real reads lists I've seen. But yeah. Reason he ranks behind the other two is because he spent

so long

talking about himself rather than scumhunting.

Also, to add on, how is putting effort in a town thing? As far as I know, all commitment and putting time into a game means it that you want to win.

QFT.

serra- Honestly I'm getting a "paranoid Town" impression from him. I like 68 and 78. I like 103. 168 looks like a genuine reads list, but he doesn't read Josh in it, so that's a little scummy. 211 is Townish to me. 259 and 263 (especially 263) I also like. Overall, 168 sets off some serious alarms, and his playstyle is a little weird to me, but I'm still inclined to lean Town here.

Jacob- Hasn't posted very much content, and I disagree with 164's argument. Slight Town for 188 and 194.

Klick- He's not posted much actual content either, but 134 strikes me as incredibly Town. Enough to give me a very slight Town here.

Spence- Null. He's posted once.

hydra- Null for now, as I'm not sure what approach I want to take as far as reading them goes. Was going to put a snap judgement here, but I'm just not sure. Their postings are pretty Town, but they give me a weird feeling and I just don't know whether it's scummy or just Hydra-y.

AA9- Vague Scumlean. She seems to assert some really random stuff, but it could just be the language thing. Also calls KX scummy, then reverts to Null when the wagon shuts down. I don't think I'd put money on it, but she's a bit meh.

Nic - Has posted very little, and most of that is sheeping. 201, though, I really like, so he's definitely one I'm going to be watching for further developments.

Ven- I've moved him up a slot. He starts off a lot more defensive than he really needs to. I think another scummy thing is that he's swayed a lot by other people's opinions. And he doesn't have any posts that strike me as super duper Townish like Nic either.

Josh- Post 69... what? NOPE. For the most part his posts are really self-contained, and there's not much involvement in or commentary on big stuff that happens in the game. And 175 is awfully quick to unvote. Not wishy-washy though, I'm not really sure where that came from. And NO, THAT LOGIC WAS NOT REALLY THAT LOGICAL. EFFORT DOES NOT CORRELATE WITH ALIGNMENT. (Third time that's come up in this post, so I wanted to be VERY CLEAR about my opinion on this OBVIOUSLY by SHOUTING.)
Scummiest

I'd vote Josh, but we need more discussion time before anyone gets lynched. I'll stay on Ven for now, but I don't find him as wholly scummy as I thought I did.

[Venrob]

@mod

ArcAngel seems to be off-site a while- not posting in Open475 either. I gtg too lol

[serrapaladin]

So the one thing Venrob comes back for is to say that someone who's been more active than him isn't posting elsewhere...

[serrapaladin]

I should probably give my scumminess list as well:

Town

goodmorning
Cheery
ArcAngel
Docteur
Nic
Klick
Josh
HD
KX

Null

Spencer
Jacob
Venrob

Scum