Open 474 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over!

[Human Destroyer]

JK

Serious post in the morning

[Jennifer]

The wagon on me is ridiculous.

Doctor's reason is essentially 'I can feel what I want to feel and you can't make me not feel it, so nyah!'
Cheery Dog's reason is because I disagreed with him over whether Venrob's vote was scummy.
Nic's vote is because I disagree with him over a read of Panzer.
Jacob's vote is because of ????
KX expressed her opinion that I am the best lynch of the moment because she'd rather try to make associative tells with my flip than lynch someone who she really doubts can be town

Meanwhile, Jacob is making legit scummy moves, dodging responding to questions to justify his vote and too many people are letting him slide.
Essentially the defense on him has been:
-He's so scummy he can't be scum (an argument I hate by the way)
-His drawing is sooooo cute! (Which while it totally is, is besides the point). It's smoke & mirrors. He was asked by the Hydra to give his views on Josh/Jennifer over time, and his first drawing barely mentions Josh at all. Additionally, he alludes to finding more things he missed the first go around, which basically sounds like he's trying to find support retroactively.
And despite Jacob not addressing Hydra's question, Hydra is still defending Jacob and giving him a pass (And I don't care if it's Hydra-Els asking the questions and Hydra-M defending him.)

Seriously....

It's ridiculous that people are so wedded to their views and are just looking for confirming evidence at this point as opposed to really analyzing the situation and updating their views accordingly. It's ridiculous that people are letting Jacob's non-answers slide while trying to hold my feet to the fire over ... what? I don't even know.

Btw
Panzer is still town to me.
I agree with him that KX seems like new-town.

@Mod

Can we request a prod of Klick please? Thanks.

[goodmorning]

HDDDDDDDDDD

<3

HOW DID YOU KNOWWWW


To respond to the actual game:

@Jenn: What do you think about my opinion that Panzer underestimates the talents of newbScum? Since you said you agree with him...

[KX]

dang, HD beat me to it. Anyway, read through the whole thing, makes a little more sense to me. I think we should probably move on from this subject though, unless Panzer wants something to come of it, since I believe it's been discussed in detail, and it's been shown the end result is Panzer gets lynch, something that I think wouldn't be for the best now. On that,

Unvote

[Jennifer]

@Jenn: What do you think about my opinion that Panzer underestimates the talents of newbScum? Since you said you agree with him...

I don't know if Panzer underestimates the talents of newbScum, but I agree with you that most people probably underestimate newbies. KX has a quote I saw in that offsite game where he said something like he is a good liar and has the ability to fake people out. So I wouldn't put it past KX to play a good scum game, but I'm just not seeing the scum here. The only thing that seems particularly odd is his hesitance to vote more here, which normally I would see as scum trying to avoid an official voting record for later vote analysis. But in this case his hesitancy actually leans town to me because he is still resisting voting even though he's been called out on it and pressured to vote. I feel like if he was scum he would have caved to remove that suspicion.

[Klick]

I feel like I have good reads in this game, but can't give good reasons for them.

It's depressing. I may have to replace out, but I'm tired of replacing out.

[KX]

KX expressed her opinion

Were the fuck do you get that my gender is female? I mean, seriously, I see nothing to make one thing that.

On Klick being prodded, City hasn't been online (at least visibly) in 12 hours, and judging via timezones, I would say she probably just hasn't had the time yet.
However, now they've posted, so a question. What are your reads, even if you can't justify them?

And yes, I'm an extremely good liar, also good at controlling not only others but my own emotions, so. Tbh, I almost want to be scum just to see how I do. And I have three main uses of my vote. The first is prodding somebody to be active, the second is to obtain information, pressure etc, and the third is if I actually want somebody dead and out of the game. Otherwise, I see no reason to vote, and so don't.

[Cheery Dog]

I would also like to note how ridiculously fast my wagon is building, a grand indication that it is on a townie.

Goodmorning's wagon grew at the approximately the same speed, so come again with this point?

[KX]

Also, who exactly was voting Panzer when they said that?

[PJ.]

I would also like to note how ridiculously fast my wagon is building, a grand indication that it is on a townie.

Goodmorning's wagon grew at the approximately the same speed, so come again with this point?

3 votes and intent to vote over the course of like 3 hours? Also before anyone had a vote on goodmornign there was quite a bit of suspicion. Please correct me if i'm wrong here

[Cheery Dog]

I would also like to note how ridiculously fast my wagon is building, a grand indication that it is on a townie.

Goodmorning's wagon grew at the approximately the same speed, so come again with this point?

3 votes and intent to vote over the course of like 3 hours? Also before anyone had a vote on goodmornign there was quite a bit of suspicion. Please correct me if i'm wrong here

I overestimated the time slightly since the GM wagon happened while I slept, but it still happened within a day, and not everyone on it had given suspicions beforehand on it either. (looking at venrob again), but considering we've now had three wagons build (although yours never reached tipping point - also not including the RVS one on klick), I don't think you can actually use the quickness of a wagon as a town tell in this game. I don't think there have been any wagons so far that have stayed high and dry of votes either. (not including the single votes from RVS again)

[PJ.]

Fair enough, I still believe a lot of this is due to one person, that person being GM.

[CityElectric]

Votecount 1.11

Jennifer (L-3):

Docteur Gudsight, Cheery Dog, JacobSavage, NicCage

JacobSavage (L-4):

serrapaladin, borkjerfkin, Jennifer

Panzerjager (L-4):

Human Destroyer, goodmorning

goodmoring (L-5):

ArcAngel9, Panzerjager

Not voting (2):

Klick, KX

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-02-06 11:00:00)

Sorry for the lack of vote counts yesterday. I've been busy.

[Docteur Gudsight]

His drawing is sooooo cute! (Which while it totally is, is besides the point). It's smoke & mirrors. He was asked by the Hydra to give his views on Josh/Jennifer over time, and his first drawing barely mentions Josh at all. Additionally, he alludes to finding more things he missed the first go around, which basically sounds like he's trying to find support retroactively.
And despite Jacob not addressing Hydra's question, Hydra is still defending Jacob and giving him a pass (And I don't care if it's Hydra-Els asking the questions and Hydra-M defending him.)

This head is waiting for Jacob to answer #548. There is a part of truth in what you say, but Jacob scuminess is partially offset by some towntells (yes this kind of drawing is actually a towntell). Your scuminess isn't offset by much.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

In the same way I won't support any HD vote today, I won't support any Panzer vote today. Over-aggressive players are not good D1 lynches. They tend to become very good lynches/conftown once we get flips later.

~ Els

[Human Destroyer]

1) You can convince people that someone is scum without making a case or posting a wall. shocking I know.

2)

-Voting a player his "scumread" is pushing the lynch of

is it though. and I didn't even say I was going to. I said I would consider it. You are being very liberal with the english language here. Using the definite of "He's voting" as the future of he is "going to". Neither of which are true.

3) Only small because it's a scumslip you did. Scumslips are generally small.

4) 1 vote on me that is obvious OMGUS = OMG HE'S CALLING ALL HIS VOTES SCUM GUYS.


You are getting worked up and creating a case on over me "calling you scum for things that aren't scummy". If that were true, you wouldn't be getting so worked up over it. You are panicking over something that wouldn't be such a big deal if you weren't scum.

1) Except I don't have to use the same methods you do; you have made a big deal about my methods being scummy, when they are in fact not.

2) Typo on my part. Should've been "going to". "I'm considering it" does kind of imply "I'm going to", whether you like it or not.

3) It's not even a scumslip. I asked you a question, and you called it out as a scumslip.

4) Yes, because a vote with reasons can simply be dismissed as OMGUS. Keep doing that, it'll take you far.


OH WAIT A SEC

Did I ever mention how Panzer said "scum lists are anti town", but then completely ignored Klick's? In fact, he didn't mention Klick even once in his ISO. Go look for yourself. In fact, Klick's ISO is scarce as hell. How is my scum list so much more scummy than Klick's to him? Double standard says hi.

1)

I feel yours was more forced to fit in than Klick's was. Serra also posted a list that I didn't talk about. And more interestingly it was after he reprimanded someone for giving too much information to the scum. Probably something I should of stated. Primarily I just think you're the scummiest of the 3 followed by Serra then Klick.

[1&4)]

2)

I've gone into it quite a bit already this post and would like to refrain from going into it further because this isn't the place for an in-depth discussion on theory. Just because I'm the only one in this game that feels Cases are scummy, doesn't mean I'm the only one on the site or that i'm necessarily wrong. Either way, the fact you disagree with my theory doesn't make me scummy, it's a difference of opnion. You are frustrated with my style of play, my opinions on "scumhunting", and my insistence that you are scum, which is invoking an aggressive response of you voting me and calling me scum. You're orignal case had this gem: "Your thoughts have made almost no sense throughout this whole game." Just because they don't make sense to you doesn't make them scummy. The intent has been to scumhunt, which I believe is quite clear. Unless you are accusing me of deflecting people off of the already faltering(at the time) Jennifer wagon, I don't see any other clear reason that you could insinuate that I'm posting my thoughts on who are scum and why.

[2.]

3)

Conveinient typo.

[3.]

4)

This isn't going anywhere. I'm not going to try to get you to admit to your own scumslip. But I would like it noted by the other players in this game that, first you have stated twice that you are driving the Jacob wagon, thus leading me believe that You are wanting us all to note that you are "scumhunting" and taking credit for a wagon(that had like 2 people on) and second believe that I am "Twisting (your) words to paint (you) in a bad light". So that leads me to believe that you are quite concerned with how people are viewing you in this game. Couple that with you saying something along the lines "panzer not saying anything of consequence this game", I am wondering why you are re-acting so aggressively (a vote and 3 or 4 post dedicated strictly to me being scum) to my "twisting of your words" and why you care some much about peopl's perception of you in this game?

5)

Short answer, it's probably because you're

----------

1) What am I forcing them to fit? My own opinions? Shocking I know. How is Klick's list not scummy compared to others? It's pretty much the only content he's provided all game.

2) I'm clearly stating that you're calling people cum for (mostly) non-reasons, and your insistence on them is what makes me suspicious. This in particular is what I'm thinking of here.

3) They always are, they always are.

4) I'm always concerned with how people see me, despite my alignment. You ain't gonna be convincing anyone if they don't think you're obvtown as fuck. Hence why I always try to make myself appear obvtown as fuck.

5) HE KNOWS MY SECRET! HE KNOWS I'M ACTUALLY A DIVIDING LINE!

[Klick]

calling people cum

lol

But yeah, give me a second to get on my laptop.

[Human Destroyer]

>.>

<.<

[Jennifer]

(yes this kind of drawing is actually a towntell)

Really? Can you show me any other game that supports this theory that drawing is a towntell?

He expressed that he doesn't like to write a lot. So it comes off as null at best that he would draw instead of write; and scummy because of the content (and lack thereof) of what he did provide.

[serrapaladin]

I kind of agree that we probably shouldn't lynch HD or panzer today. I still hold that one of them is probably scum, but I'd be happier if we agreed on someone less vocal for D1.

Nic seemed way too keen to jump back on the Jenn wagon after temporarily unvoting, his 530 is basically saying "she doesn't see the same things as legitimately scummy as I do - she must be scum," plus confirmation bias against the Josh slot in general. I like my vote on Jacob for now, but would consider Nic.

[Docteur Gudsight]

(yes this kind of drawing is actually a towntell)

Really? Can you show me any other game that supports this theory that drawing is a towntell?

Why do I need to point to games to make my point? The reason that this kind of stuff is a towntell is because making it shows that the player is relaxed and prefers to do "fun stuff" rather than trying to convince people. Faking relaxedness is not that easy, and I doubt Jacob-scum would do it.

He still need to answer the question, but i'm feeling more confident about the fact he is town.

~ Els

[Jennifer]

Uh-huh.. more like you're scum who feels confident you've found a comfortable mislynch to sit on and think you no longer have to pretend to scumhunt today.

The day ends in 3 days... not a long time away (and there's also no reason to let time run to the end unnecessarily).

But are the people on my wagon even pushing to get others to vote? Calling for inactives to get in here and make their stand? Calling out people who haven't answered their questions (Jacob!) to get in here and adequately answering them? Taking them to the mat for dodging responses? NO!!

Instead, they're content to let the clock run out knowing that town won't want to no lynch and so will likely go to whichever person has the most votes at the time. And you're letting them get away with that crap.

Town if I flip:
1. Feel ashamed
2. Ask yourself why the hell you let them get away with voting me for stupid reasons and not calling them out on it
3. CALL THEM OUT ON IT AND STOP LETTING THEM GET AWAY WITH THIS CRAP.

TOWN WAKE UP AND PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE! SERIOUSLY!

[Docteur Gudsight]

I'll catch up tonight on this really, but for now:

Am I supposed to call you scum repeatedly even more? I've said why multiple times. A no lynch occurring is fairly unlikely and currently with the way votes are I'll likely have you be lynched even if I just stalled. AtE really helps no body and if you cared to help you could explain your reads more and push them more (it doesn't matter if you've down it especially when you're pretty much trying to ignore all the arguing I've done with you in saying I'm not pushing you at all so yeah more can't hurt from the sounds of you).

And you can have a scum motivation for every single action. You can also have a town one. Els gave a reason why the pic is a town tell. I agree. You disagree. But you're much trying to word things in a way to make our reason as trifle or dumb as possible.

~M

[Jennifer]

Am I supposed to call you scum repeatedly even more? I've said why multiple times.

Not so much that you should keep saying I'm scum, but that you should be getting people to cast their vote where it's useful. We have two people that haven't voted; we have HD and GM with wasted votes on Panzer and arguably wasted votes by AA9 and Panz on GM. (Of course, all votes on me are wasted, but I get that though I don't like it I'm set up as a So why aren't you engaging them and trying to get them on to a useful wagon?

Just letting time chug along without trying to get buy-in isn't a town mindset. If you're really town, you should be engaging those you think are town and trying to get buy in and listen to their counterarguments/counterviews if they present them. You're not doing that.

I've already clearly laid out my views. If I flip they can easily go back and see what I saw. Whether they listen now is a different question.

But it's hypocritical that I've responded to every scum point you've raised against me so that the only argument you're left with is 'gut' yet you don't bother to probe and demand answers from Jacob in the same way.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Fine I'll give you one final reply. I won't respond to you after this since I think I've talked to you enough to be confident and firm in my read and you haven't changed my mind.

Mafia is not a game of pure logic. Nor is it a game of pure rhetoric. Nor is it one of skill in debating. As town it's simply the ability to decide who's scum. I've said why you're scum. Your responses have not changed my mind. I do not need to respond to you every time. A response can be made to nearly everything for how it's town or scum. Being able to respond to me doesn't make you better or more town. It just proves you can argue and while it can change minds the way you've pushed things hasn't changed mine at all.

~M