Open 474 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over!

[Jennifer]

@HD
@Nic
@Serra

What are your thoughts on why Hydra is/is not scum?

[Human Destroyer]

For me, it's just PoE.

I'll be honest, they really have not done anything I can consider scummy enough to vote them, and I think the interactions point more to GM/Jacob/serra than anything.

@Cheery: It's not necessarily the

fact

serra's read diminished, it's the

way

his read diminished that I don't like.

[Human Destroyer]

I think panzer's very first post about a GM, HD, Hydra scumteam

may actually have been correct

.

I never said I am more sure

of Panzer having been right about HD and Hydra, I just presented it as an option.

*cough*

[serrapaladin]

Bold 'may' and 'an option' instead. Had I tried to imply certainty, I would have phrased it differently and given it a vote. Stop arguing semantics. Just because you're convinced Jacob and I are scum doesn't mean everyone else gets should be beyond suspicion by PoE. Back in D1 you said you were something like 50% sure Josh, Jacob and I are scum. I see you as trying to convey too much certainty.

[Human Destroyer]

I'm not arguing semantics.

Let's look at your thoughts for a moment:

Your Scum Reads (S>W)

Jacob>Nic>HD>Hydra

Who are you voting? Nic, your

second strongest

scum read. Because apparently, counterwagons against your strongest scum read...are...a...good...thing?

It doesn't make any fucking sense from a town standpoint. A town player would want to get the player they want scummiest lynched, not start a counterwagon against them.

Also,

why echo an opinion that you don't strongly believe in?

Echoing opinions of a confirmed town player to say "Hey I agree with them!" is towncred leeching and a scumtell, especially if you're just "lol it's an option" rather than actually believing it.

[Human Destroyer]

EBWOP:

they

find

scummiest lynched

[NicCage]

@HD
@Nic
@Serra

What are your thoughts on why Hydra is/is not scum?

I can't give you an Is/Is not, it's too absolute. Clearly my reads aren't that good.
However, I think there is a good chance compared to other players that the Hydra is scum.
I'm basing that mainly on two things:
1. At the end of the day the hydra threw out a lot of WIFOM and basically held on to his original scum read from Josh.

2. Els's response to the wagon that sprung up on me, and the justification for it.

Now, I held on to my read on Josh too. But I think the hydra and I did it for different reasons. Josh's obviously bad play offered easy evidence against him, and as a new player that logic was something I could grasp on to. However, the Hydra is a very experienced player, and I don't think it is likely that they would make the same mistakes I did (that said, it's totally possible that they did).

CD's question once answered could shed some more light on this, but why would the hydra think I'm scum? First off, I'm mentioned quite a few times in the Hydra's earlier posts in relation to the case against Josh.

210: Avoiding me and nic's clear reasons pushing you as well as responding to each vote and are trying to get away as quietly and easily as possible. Instead of directly confronting all the suspicion on you you're just asking HD the more obvious attacking leader when two others gave you clear places to start in a defense (respond to els laundry list of your scummy posts and nic's several quotes and reasons on your scumminess).

Why would they think I'm fence sitting, when earlier they said I was pushing, that I had reasons of my own, that my reasons were clear? If they thought that at any point it doesn't seem likely that I would all of a sudden become scummy. The lack of a vote and the ABORT is interesting too. Giving approval to my wagon, yet providing an alibi to clear themselves of any connection to it once I was lynched, if that were to occur. Imagine that I had gotten lynched and flipped town. I doubt that that would do more than muddy the waters in this game, unless I'm mistaken about the amount of information my lynch would contain. I think that in that situation I would have been a prime target for scum to lynch.

[Cheery Dog]

I was responding to Cheery as to why I voted Panzer. I am now less sure about it having been town-scum (although I never said I'm certain of it, just that it was an impression I was getting), as reflected by HD as my third scumread. I am not attacking him for attacking me.

I'm still interested in more information about why your theory lowered, was it a gradual or sudden decline in believing one of the two was scum.

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery: It's not necessarily the

fact

serra's read diminished, it's the

way

his read diminished that I don't like.

That's the same thing when no obvious reasons are given for the change. The whole thing together makes up the "i don't want to bus, but my partner is it trouble, I guess I better since the cases makes sense" association tell.

What do you make of me calling goodmorning scummy a few times but never voting for her?

[serrapaladin]

It's just probabilities. When both were alive, I felt good about one being scum. Now that Panzer has flipped town, that's made it less likely.

[Human Destroyer]

What do you make of me calling goodmorning scummy a few times but never voting for her?

You were pushing Jennifer; you only have one vote :/

If you're trying to make the analogy to my case on serra, the difference is serra's votes don't reflect his thoughts, while yours do (you thought Jennifer was scummy enough for a vote but that GM was also scum, which is different than serra starting a counterwagon to his strongest scumread on his second strongest, which makes no sense from town).

[serrapaladin]

Look, if everyone just piles onto the same wagon start of D2, we won't get much information. I wanted a second wagon, so I decided to start it.

[Klick]

Why get information for later use when you can lynch scum now?

I think the game could be solved via Process of Elimination and agreement among common townreads.

First of all, does anyone disagree with any of the following players being town:

KX
Jennifer
bork

[Cheery Dog]

It's just probabilities. When both were alive, I felt good about one being scum. Now that Panzer has flipped town, that's made it less likely.

Would the same have happened (except opposite names) had HD flipped town?

What do you make of me calling goodmorning scummy a few times but never voting for her?

You were pushing Jennifer; you only have one vote :/

If you're trying to make the analogy to my case on serra, the difference is serra's votes don't reflect his thoughts, while yours do (you thought Jennifer was scummy enough for a vote but that GM was also scum, which is different than serra starting a counterwagon to his strongest scumread on his second strongest, which makes no sense from town).

Good first answer.
But that it make more sense for scum to continue soft-pushing like this, even after they'd been called out as possibly doing it to their other partner during day 1?

@Klick, I'm still not sure on bork, but KX is still the obvtown he was Day 1, and the Jennifer wagon at the end of day 1 with a scum flip tells me I was wrong on her.

[serrapaladin]

Of course.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Why get information for later use when you can lynch scum now?

I think the game could be solved via Process of Elimination and agreement among common townreads.

First of all, does anyone disagree with any of the following players being town:

KX
Jennifer
bork

Why is bork town?
I can buy the two others.

[borkjerfkin]

@Bork, what did you see last second that made you hammer?

A thing.

I want to hear what the argument for Jacob town is cause what the hell.

I'm not wild about anything Serra has posted day 2, I have no real feel about anyone he's ruling out of his suspect list (see #778, #795). The whole "let's start another wagon thing while I'm talking about it" looks like an attempt to misdirect.

Klick seems on the level but I don't have enough from him to give him much than a weak townread.

HD is gut town cause he's saying everything I want to say re:serra.

Hydra is still town...not seeing any opportunism or compelling case on him.

Jennifer, AA9 both look town. Nic leans more town due to his reaction to my hammer.

Cheery and KX are still on my possible scum list due to PoE. Where's the obvtown KXness coming from? I do not see it.

[CityElectric]

No votes have changed since the last votecount.

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2013-02-21 20:00:00).

JacobSavage will be V/LA until 14-02.

ArcAngel9 and KX have been prodded.

[ArcAngel9]

I am here... Caught up in the weekend!! I ll catch up today...

[CityElectric]

I am here... Caught up in the weekend!! I ll catch up today...

You have 24 hours from this post on to make a meaningful post before you'll be replaced.

[NicCage]

Why get information for later use when you can lynch scum now?

I think the game could be solved via Process of Elimination and agreement among common townreads.

First of all, does anyone disagree with any of the following players being town:

KX
Jennifer
bork

I don't think you can safely count bork out just yet, but yeah he doesn't really seem that scummy to me

[NicCage]

@Hydra, what's your read on serra in relation to your other reads? I don't want the list so much, but if you were to make one would serra be high or low on it?

Klick, could I at least have a scummy/not scummy answer to my question?

klick, what do you think about serra defending josh for so long?

[Klick]

I haven't looked into it yet. That in itself seems like a null action, though. I had Josh as a townread.

[Jennifer]

@Serra

Can you point to the post(s) where you first thought GM was scum yesterday? I never got the impression that you thought she was scum, rather I got the impression you just thought she was less likely town than I was, thus preferring her lynch to mine as a compromise since you couldn't get the Jacob lynch.

Also, please answer my question here:

@Serra

What are your thoughts on why Hydra is/is not scum?

[ArcAngel9]

I have bad feeling about Cheery, how many of you think that he may be Scum?
and also have to agree on this that Jacob isn't been same as he always on the other games, that doesn't make him sure scum but that is odd.

@Mob - Can we please get the current Vote Tally , thank you