Open 474 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over!

[NicCage]

You haven't yet, but I'll address it when I don't have to phone post. What exactly is your defense of serra?

[NicCage]

Actually you may have answered all the questions that I can expect you to answer for the moment. I have a couple of questions for Medhi though. Why don't you get amazon prime, free 2-day shipping on that crystal ball.

[Jennifer]

Quick thoughts before I take off.

I agree Serra's statement that Panzer may be right while still wanting Jacob/Nic wagon is weird. I did like his response to me though. I haven't been able to closely read yet the rest of te back and forth so not sure where ultimately come out.

Jacob should be looked at once he's back tomorrow to see f he's scum or checked out town.

I'd appreciate people trying to get solid read on hydra as I lean scum but given some others' town read on hydra not sure if it's me that needs to rethink things or them.

Will try to check in before back from vacation but won't be able to do deep dive until back.

[CityElectric]

Votecount 2.3

JacobSavage (L-4):

borkjerfkin, Docteur Gudsight

Docteur Gudsight (L-4):

Cheery Dog, Jennifer

serrapaladin (L-4):

Human Destroyer, NicCage

NicCage (L-5):

serrapaladin

Not voting (4):

ArcAngel9, KX, JacobSavage, Klick

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2013-02-21 20:00:00).

JacobSavage will be V/LA until 14-02.
Jennifer will be V/LA until 19-02

Klick has been prodded.

[Klick]

Apologies.

For now, I can VOTE: Docteur as the wagon I support most at this point.

[serrapaladin]

I didn't mean to present Panzer's statement as anything more than an option. He had been right about GM, so I didn't want to dismiss anyone else he implicated.

[Cheery Dog]

I guess only he can provide a definite answer, but why would he not share my opinion when i made it pretty clear to him? Iirc, he also shared a few times my reads concerning e.g. Jacob and serra in the middle of day 1.

~ Els

the other two were different since as far as I can tell medhi actually had a scum read on them, I can't see that before or after in regards to niccage

[borkjerfkin]

I agree with HD re: HD vs Hydra argument, but I think Hydra is simply being naive and not scummy.

This feels like the longest V/LA from Jacob ever.

[ArcAngel9]

VOTE: CherryDog

I don't really buy his explanation, He is different than his usual play.. therefore, Scummy to me.

[borkjerfkin]

yeah that's pretty weaksauce and is not gonna gain any traction

[ArcAngel9]

Dont be judgemental!!!

[borkjerfkin]

I'm not being judgmental; I'm just saying that you're not gonna get a Cheery wagon off of that.

[ArcAngel9]

It doesn't mean that i can't put pressure on my suspect... who knows, He may be scum and this might help!!

[borkjerfkin]

V/LA Friday-Monday

prolly LA.

[Klick]

V/LA until Monday

prolly V.

I'm still going to commit myself to posting while I'm gone, just making it clear that I'm on vacation.

[JacobSavage]

Its been a week bork, 1 week!

(Also I'm back, funnily enough)

[CityElectric]

Votecount 2.4

Docteur Gudsight (L-3):

Cheery Dog, Jennifer, Klick

JacobSavage (L-4):

borkjerfkin, Docteur Gudsight

serrapaladin (L-4):

Human Destroyer, NicCage

NicCage (L-5):

serrapaladin

Cheery Dog (L-5):

ArcAngel9

Not voting (2):

KX, JacobSavage

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2013-02-21 20:00:00).

JacobSavage will be V/LA until 14-02.
Jennifer will be V/LA until 19-02
Klick will be V/LA until 18-02

KX has been prodded.

V/LA Friday-Monday

prolly LA.

Noted.

[NicCage]

No. I think you could be scum with serra

Just to be clear, the no was for the jacob wagon being better. I realize now from rereading your posts that you might not have gotten that. So when I was talking about accusations I meant the Jacob wagon.

I don't believe in Serra + GM. Serra spent a lot of time defending Josh yesterday, and this would be a very strange move when one of the counterwagon is on scum.
~ Els

Can you explain what you meant by this?

[Docteur Gudsight]

Can you explain what you meant by this?

Consider two concurrent wagons, one on scum (goodmorning), one on likely-town (Jennifer). Scum can have many behaviour:

- Vote for the town, and make sure town is lynched instead of scum (straightforward play, high risk/reward)
- Vote for the scum because they think their vote won't matter, and grab towncred (bussing, happens, but not very frequent)
- Lurk / Avoid commenting, to determine which course of action they want to take later (a very usual scum move, generally seen as a huge scumtell - reason for which i'm for the Jacob wagon)
- Create a third wagon
etc...

However, *defending* the town wagon is a very unusual move for scum. They don't get much towncred (look at how many people aren't agreeing with me), but increase significantly the odds of the scum being lynched.

~ Els

[NicCage]

But the scum know who everyone is, by defending a town player who seems to be an easier lynch they can look much better when that player flips town. Why was serra so sure that Josh wasn't scum? Surely serra is not a mason.
I think the end of the day just didn't go as planned due to Jennifer playing better than Josh and Panzer jumping in.
Besides, serra fits your other criteria as well, voting GM at the end of the day to try to bus and I believe serra's D2 posts avoid any serious commenting.

[serrapaladin]

Please stop rolefishing. It's really quite scummy.

So what did I have planned then for D1? I obviously didn't want Jenn/Josh lynched, so why should her better play matter? If I were bussing GM, why would I fake reluctance and a lingering townread on her?

[Human Destroyer]

@HD: I'm not saying serra said GM was scum. I'm saying that there was some concurrent wagons, that two of the most significant ones were Josh and GM and that serra spent time defending Josh, making the GM wagon the "default" wagon.

That's a load of silly WIFOM BS that you should know better not to use

In other news serra is flailing, considering his vote is not the only thing I've been harping on and he can't prove my reasons are fabricated. (Why? Because they aren't)

Not only that, he hasn't even tried to push the NicCage wagon.

Lynch. This. Fucking. Now.

Don't use the term WIFOM as a magic card to destroy any reasoning.

Scum can bus scum, and still pushing strongly scum gives town points. Is it WIFOM? Depends of what your definition is. Still, anything that is protown should give town points, and anything that helps the scumteam gives scum points.

Here, serra behaviour yesterday helped the town to lynch scum. That makes him a bad lynch candidate today. Jacob didn't help to do anything. You (HD) weighted heavily to avoid a scum lynch. That gives both of you scum points and make you way better lynches.

~ Els

1) I don't use WIFOM arguments for everything. It's appropriate here.

2) Except serra didn't push scum strongly. He had a townread on GM, but when he saw for sure that GM was going down, he joined the wagon.

3) You're too easy with your townpoints. This is how scum get by people, folks! GM was pretty much dead when Panzer claimed mason, so to say serra gets townpoints for lynching her, especially when you consider serra had a townread on GM the whole day, is not only lenient, but ridiculous and stupid. And yeah, I didn't want her lynched because I had a town read on her. That's a thing called "being wrong", heard of it?

Lynch. This. Fucking. Now.

isn't this what you said about panzer yesterday? Why should we be so eager to lynch on that great of your scum reads when it was so wrong yesterday.

(if you're wondering what I'm doing, it's that I'm actually finding both hd and serra scummy and town at the same time, and the repeated questioning is to test which is more plausible).

You should be eager to lynch serra because this case is far more concrete than the Panzer case and the associative tells make serra look far worse than the hydra is letting on.

[Klick]

Serra, that argument is bad and you should feel bad.

[Human Destroyer]

• Goodmorning
  and
  ArcAngel
  both seem town, although ArcAngel's vote on Josh seems a bit odd, after admitting he's only been null so far. Input from both of them seems genuine and is somewhat helpful.

Seems town.

I should probably give my scumminess list as well:

Town

goodmorning
Cheery
ArcAngel
Docteur
Nic
Klick
Josh
HD
KX

Null

Spencer
Jacob
Venrob

Scum

Towniest read, no reason given.

I can see Panzer being right about Hydra or HD, but probably not both. Not sure about the goodmorning wagon, I had an overall town feel, besides a few weird accusations - I'll see how that develops.

"People are starting to notice my scumbuddy, time to keep my options for towncred open!"

I'm still leaning town on GM, although I'm interested to see how Jenn's case plays out.

Posts like this always give me bad feels. It gives the person a sort of "I don't want to get my hands dirty" type of stance, so it's almost like fencesitting but usually leaning a little towards one side. Either way, it's a statement made to, again, keep serra's options open.

I'm inclined to believe both AA and GM are town, although the way they went after each other is slightly odd.

Still both town.

IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION, LOOK NOW, THIS IS IMPORTANT

I don't see the wagons on GM or Jenn.

Then very closely after:

I would be willing to lynch any of the four

if it comes down to it. At the moment

I would feel like lynching GM is the lesser of three evils

if we can't get votes onto Jacob.

Who would you vote if we don't agree on GM?

This is where his bussing comes into play so starkly. GM and Jenn wagons are apparently baseless and/or bad, but barely 50 posts later, he's willing to switch to them? What?

Not only that, GM, his strongest fucking townread who was still a townread 50 posts ago, is now his strongest scumread out of those being wagoned.

What in the actual fuck is this shit. Why are people NOT voting this?

[NicCage]

Please stop rolefishing. It's really quite scummy.

So what did I have planned then for D1? I obviously didn't want Jenn/Josh lynched, so why should her better play matter? If I were bussing GM, why would I fake reluctance and a lingering townread on her?

I think the intentions of my post are clear, and I think you understand them. I assume everybody understands that you are misrepresenting what I said, and if they don't then they can ask me to clarify.

I think that your plan was was to let the Hydra lynch Josh and I think GM screwed you two over by getting lynched.

Why do you think i'm scummy enough to deserve your vote?