/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[CrashTextDummie]

I think we should massclaim.

[CrashTextDummie]

I think we should lynch CTD. Him asking for a massclaim is pretty scummy, especially considering how I've seen him play before.

What meta information are you basing this on? And why do you find suggesting masclaim to be scummy?

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Shadoweh has pinged my early scumdar. Her opening post was a brand of jokey-elaborate that I think scum are more likely to employ than town. I have more problems with Empire's DV vote though. It's craplogicy and hypocritical.

vote: Empire

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD: Hi, I'm pretty sure we've never played before, have we? It shows. Since you think my post is SCUMMY, I'm surprised you wouldn't remark on Empire's opinion on it in that post while you're voting on him, did it not affect your read at all?

Why should it? He claims to have some kind of meta on you he doesn't really trust.

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Erm, how is it bad logic or hypocritical? Voting someone for proposing an unorthodox strategy on page 1 is just about the laziest and lamest reason to vote someone. It doesn't require any real thought for scum to hang their vote on and it's especially jarring when you consider that you actually have proposed this as town before. I think the post was scummy and absolutely deserving of my vote.

It's not inherently scummy to be critical of a controversial strategy suggestion, I've been attacked over suggesting massclaim more often by town than by scum in the past. That he claimed meta reasons to suspect me

was

jarring, hence why I asked about their source. Besides, voting someone for lazy and lame reasons on page 1 is par for the course. So much for crap logic. As for hypocrisy, his vote was no more "opportunistic" than your vote on him.

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I don't have another example of finding a link scummy, but I think CTD wanted his post to be taken as immediate reactions to the thread while the link indicates more construction went into it.

I don't think I've ever given what you call "immediate reactions" in a game of mafia. This is one of the strangest things I've ever been accused of.

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Vote: CrashTestDummie (L-7) #YOLO

Oh my god you suck.

[CrashTextDummie]

And obviously, I don't view my vote as opportunistic at all -- for example, I didn't vote DV because he's an "easy target" (and I'd argue that he isn't an easy target in this roster given that most everyone here knows him and how he plays).

That's my point. I think calling DV's vote on me opportunistic was a mischaracterization on your part (unless you think I'm an easy target for some reason). I'm willing to take it as a poor choice of words at this point though as your contributions apart from this issue have been decent.

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Johog, why are you singling out penguin_alien for lurking?

-----------

Llamarble wagon seems to be the most interesting thing going on.

unvote, vote: Llamarble

[CrashTextDummie]

Johog, why are you singling out penguin_alien for lurking?

I'm not. But I'm voting him, and I don't want to see him escape by me unvoting him just because he's not showing up.

Escape from what exactly? It's not like your vote on him was well reasoned to begin with.

[CrashTextDummie]

I am bothered by Empire's post 156, which looks to me like an entirely self-serving exercise in looking sincere and introspective. The post was prompted by Shadoweh placing a heavy burden of proficiency on him, which is bothersome in its own right, much more so on page 6 of a high-profile game. The whole exchange rubs me the wrong way from both players.

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Llamarble's reaction to being wagoned has been weak and overly self-conscious. Keeping my vote there until he either delivers the goods or claims (or dies).

[CrashTextDummie]

Llamarble:

Post 49 remains a scum pattern match for me; in addition to the link making it feel like a construction instead of a collection of thoughts, here's an attack on X but let's vote Y tends to gnaw at me.

This feels like you're inventing reasons to justify a bad vote after the fact. It's not a good reason either as I was not attacking one person while voting another, but rather attacking two persons and voting one of them. I can hardly vote for two people at once.

------------

Empire:

CTD: I initially liked the way he came across in his early posts w.r.t. his vote on me but I'm not a fan of #189 at all, it feels like he's trying to fan the flames of the argument Shadoweh and I have been having while at the same time expressing his support for a Llamarble wagon.

Why do you have a problem with this? It's not like I'm just paying lip service to the Llamarble wagon, my vote is there. You're using awfully suggestive lingo here to characterize my post; why do you think I'm "trying to fan the flames" of your argument (implying a scum motivation) as opposed to me trying to call attention to the argument because I can see a scummy mindset behind it from either or both players? Unless I've missed it, you haven't commented on the fact that Shadoweh is subjecting you to a pretty well established logical fallacy and are seemingly just riding with it, which somewhat baffles me. She appears neither among your town, nor your scum reads. What's your read on her?

--------------

Llamarble's reads are fairly weaksauce to me, but considering how early in the game we are, that's not terribly surprising. I have one other question for him though:

Empire, Deasvail, CrashTextDummie, Vi, penguin_alien is probably the lynchpool for today.

Why does your proposed lynchpool not match up with your suspect list?

----------------

I can see N scum. Purposeful uselessness is not a viable town strategy and every experienced player should know this. Posts like this one (smilie and all) is something I associate quite heavily with scum play. And this nugget:

I don't understand the penguin wagon and I refuse to respond to it.

is almost offensively contradictory.

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Shadoweh has done nothing to alleviate my concerns about her and is developing into a top suspect for me. Apart from from her fallacious attack against Empire, she has not done any scumhunting so far and is seemingly going out of her way to ignore all relevant aspects of the game, most notably the Llamarble wagon.

Guess I'll check out [...] the main wagon even though I don't feel interested in him which is usually my subconscious telling me to sleep through reading town lynches.

I am actually not quite sure how to read this sentence, but I think what she's saying here is that she "subconsciously" sees Llamarble as a town lynch waiting to happen, and if that's the case, she should have been doing something to counteract the wagon. Her previous excuse for not commenting on the wagon was that she had a null read on him, so I don't think this is terribly consistent either.

---------------

It has been my observation lately that games suffer from a lack a strong wagons on D1 and I see the pattern repeated so far in this one. I think it's to the detriment of the town that the Llamarble wagon has petered out without ever being challenged by a viable counter-wagon and I'd really like to see people apply some weightier votes. I'm supporting whichever out of N and Shadoweh takes off first and might be open to others pending a reread (people like Johhog, Konowa and Wickedestjr in particular have kind of been flying under my radar). I am not currently interested in a Vi wagon though.

unvote, vote: N

[CrashTextDummie]

I believe my wagon was large enough and scummy enough in character that it's a solid way to make the problem smaller.
Empire's off the list at this point.

You explicitly stated that me joining the wagon wasn't scumpinging to you and yet I'm on the list. Does not compute.

[CrashTextDummie]

Llamarble:

How does one justify a vote without talking about the thought process that led to it?
I'm pretty clearly (IMO) talking about how things looked to me after some re-reading, not about why I voted CTD.
It was indeed the attacking two persons and voting one of them (chained together in this particular manner) that bugged me, not a 'voting someone other than the person they are attacking' scenario. I'll admit I could be clearer on that.

You voted me for stated reason "the post looks constructed in a scummy way" and your new evidence is really just an extension of that. It's a short post so I don't really see why this would bother you on a reread only when you objected to the post to begin with. It in fact wasn't clear to me that this was a result of a reread and while I find it strange I don't find it as scummy as I initially thought.

I believe my wagon was large enough and scummy enough in character that it's a solid way to make the problem smaller.

I think narrowing the lynch pool in this manner is somewhat arbitrary if you're not going to differentiate between the people who contributed to the scummy character of the wagon and those who didn't, but after giving it some thought, I can see the logic from your point of view.

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@CTD (#311): Erm, it wasn't supposed to be a suggestion, I made it pretty explicit that I thought that post was scummy. You're basically expressing suspicion on the two of us while keeping your vote on Llamarble and commenting on us both without taking a more clear stance on which of us you think comes off worse in it just makes it seem like you're trying to encourage the argument rather than trying to glean meaningful information from it. And I don't see a BoP aspect to Shadoweh's argument which is why I haven't responded to it + I've already suggested I'm somewhat leaning town on her though it's been reinforced by her recent posting.

I didn't take a more clear stance on which of you came off worse because it wasn't relevant to my vote, but at least I see now where you're coming from now re: "fanning the flames". As for meaningful information, I was both giving it by expressing my suspicions and gleaning it from both your reactions to the accusation. We'll have to agree to disagree with regards to the BoP aspect to Shadoweh's argument but it's worth pointing out that it was by no means clear that you were leaning town on here until this point. She was noticeably absent from your list of town reads (which included a "very, very weak" read on Tammy), which made your indifference towards her attack against you an oddity at the very least.

I still think your self-analysis was over the top, but I can see more pro-town motivation behind it in light of your town read on her. And you have since put much more resources into things other than nursing your image.

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Benmage:

I am not currently interested in a Vi wagon though.

Why not?

Short answer: I haven't seen anything from him that indicates scum to me. This comment was mostly intended to get you and CES to do something more productive with your votes.

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Nachomamma8:

It's too early for you to be attacking N for playing to his troll scum meta. He does this as town as well; the difference is that he actually steps it the fuck up as town when he gets something he cares about. I seriously doubt that N is going to play in an invitational with a playerlist like this and expect to get away with doing nothing.

A developing wagon on him should be something to care about.

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Separate post for Shadoweh coming up.

[CrashTextDummie]

I don't think that Shadoweh is really all that easy to read early game, and if she's scum it should start becoming evident in a couple days. But, my first thought is Post 328 followed up by Post 329 comes from town. Her arguments against CTD look natural enough; I don't have any particular thoughts on CTD though, so I'll look back at that later.

Do you consider distortion of facts natural? Several things she's accusing me off are straight up BS: I am neither the player with the lowest amount of posting, nor am I lurking, and to say that I "haven't changed my reads for the entirety of D1" is not only hyperbolic, as the entirety of D1 hasn't even happened yet, but also not accurate.

If it helps you did the same thing he's accusing you of in #189, start off by re-itterating you still have scumreads on the same two people, end by reminding people you still totally suspect the guy your vote is on, and frankly all three of your suspicions reasons look skin-deep.

My suspicions were plenty good enough for page 13 of a large game. You can also explain why you have a problem with voicing suspicions of other players while expressing dissatisfaction with the defense of the person you're voting for.

Empire's post was self-reflective because he was answering the question I asked him about himself.

You are now defending the person who was at the time your one and only suspect. The post in question did not give you any pause in your attack against him, so it stands to reason that at the

very least

you didn't find it protown, so for you to turn around and attack me for questioning it is extremely disingenuous.

Summing up my reasoning for attacking Empire as BoP is simplistic and in my opinion wrong.

I will give you this. Your attack against Empire was not

just

BoP, you also accused him of soft questioning, which fed into your argument that "a strong scumhunter can't be unsure about things" (paraphrased), which to me is, in essence, BoP.

I don't have any proof to directly counteract the wagon, therefore I have been attempting to pursue the lead elsewhere that I saw to try and drive up a different wagon. You'll have to explain to me what else exactly I should have been doing to counteract a wagon I was never on. That comment above is perfectly consistent with what I said earlier, null, uninterested, not worth looking at, but no concrete reason to trust.

Ways to counteract a wagon:
1. Disagree with the wagon
2. Mount a counterwagon

You did not disagree with the wagon. What you said instead in post 258 boils down to "I don't have a read on Llamarble, but if he flips town I totally called it", which is playing it safe on top of being wishy-washy.

I think the weirdest thing about your post though, is that after those three statements, you end up changing votes to N, the person that frankly you had the least and weakest things to say about.

I initially had a vote on you and pre-edited it to N when I saw Vi had voted him, putting him ahead. I am perfectly willing to compromise on a weaker suspicion if it increases the chance of a wagon actually taking place.

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Your case against me is terrible and your quality of scumhunting/post count ratio is abysmal. Please let me know if you're planning on continuing to tunnel me so I can ignore you for the time being. Kthxbai.

[CrashTextDummie]

Two other things I wanted to mention:

Remind me of this post after Shadoweh answers Post 336.

You're welcome.

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Johhog's CES vote is lazy and scummy. Instead of commenting on anything relevant going on or using his vote in a productive manner, he parks it on a player that has virtually no chance of getting wagoned based on his weak meta suspicion. Would vote.

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N, I take it you had some analysis of stuff that happened before the spotlight turned to you that you are going to reproduce?

[CrashTextDummie]

Pardon?

You mentioned having lost something to an error and I'd like to see it. Looking for scum on a wagon that hasn't even properly taken off yet at the expense of everything else that happened is awfully OMGUSy.

"Here are two ways to counteract a wagon. You didn't o the first one THEREFORE YOU ARE BAD" ignoring that my argument was that I was doing the second thing. GJ.

A counterwagon involves more than one person. You were sitting on Empire by yourself, pushing a fail meta-case. Kind of like you're sitting on me by yourself now, pushing a fail BS-case. How about you do something productive and vote for Johhog? Competing Johhog/N wagons would be great just about now.

CTD: Read Empire again. Go.

No thanks. I don't see the uber town tells you've referenced, which I assume are meta-related, but I've already indicated that I've seen enough pro-town effort from him to counter-balance the icky stuff and I am currently not interested in questioning him further.

[CrashTextDummie]

Can you please answer my question at the top of 248?

No, I didn't find it suspicious.

[CrashTextDummie]

Wickedestjr, why do you have a town read on Johhog?

[CrashTextDummie]

A developing wagon on him should be something to care about.

Not if it's founded on bullshit. No one cares about cases on bullshit because they don't feel like they've done anything wrong when they are lynched.

- N has failed to contribute anything of worth to the proceedings for the majority of the day (up until his wagon started). He did voice weak support for the Llamarble wagon or a Johhog wagon, but he did not do so with his vote, electing instead to sit pretty on a useless Nachovote. He refused to take a stance on the penguin wagon.
- There was actually a decided spike in activity from him ever since he has come under attack, he seemed to have cared quite a lot about this "bullshit case". His contributions continue to be shallow though. There is no evidence that his vote on me is anything but OMGUS, and the same goes for the rest of his suspicions (sans Nacho).
- He has refused to answer more than one direct request for reads he claims to have.

That is

not

a bullshit case. N is playing a scum game.

Your case against me is terrible and your quality of scumhunting/post count ratio is abysmal. Please let me know if you're planning on continuing to tunnel me so I can ignore you for the time being. Kthxbai.

Why do you think Shadoweh is town?

You are clearly paying a lot of attention.

[CrashTextDummie]

N has failed to contribute anything of worth to the proceedings for the majority of the day (up until his wagon started). He did voice weak support for the Llamarble wagon or a Johhog wagon, but he did not do so with his vote, electing instead to sit pretty on a useless Nachovote. He refused to take a stance on the penguin wagon.

Why does any of this make him scum?

I shouldn't need to explain to you why his stance on these wagons was scummy, this is a fairly standard scum ploy. It keeps his hands clean and his options open irregardless of what the player in question eventually flips. As for his lack of contribution, it's anti-town in itself in that it doesn't help the town and only serves to make himself hard to read. What do you make of the fact that he seemingly changed up his playstyle in this game for purely survivalistic reasons? He claims that his lack of actions are designed to keep him from getting lynched, which serves a scum-agenda a lot more than it does a town-agenda.

There was actually a decided spike in activity from him ever since he has come under attack, he seemed to have cared quite a lot about this "bullshit case". His contributions continue to be shallow though. There is no evidence that his vote on me is anything but OMGUS, and the same goes for the rest of his suspicions (sans Nacho).

Of course there was a spike in activity from him when people started giving him more things to respond to; that doesn't mean he gives a shit about the wagon on him. There is no evidence that his vote on you is anything but OMGUS, but that doesn't matter as far as his alignment is concerned. Why do you think he sprung for you instead of the penguin wagon? Do you think he's afraid to bus?

Of course it matters as far as his alignment is concerned. He has zero legitimate suspects on page 22 of D1. Zero. He is not scumhunting. As for your questions, I'd be surprised at this point if penguin-alien flipped scum.

He has refused to answer more than one direct request for reads he claims to have.

Why do this as scum?

Better question: why do this as town? I hate this line of defense because a)this isn't a game of mind reading and scum can and will do anything for all kinds of reasons and b) the fact in itself that people take this line of thinking seriously can motivate scum (in)actions. Lack of town motivation is a much better gauge of alignment than lack of scum motivation.

You are clearly paying a lot of attention.

Why do you treat Shadoweh like she's misguided town in that quote?

I am not. I was indicating that we were done talking to each other and gave my reasons why.

Why aren't you voting her?

Again, you are clearly paying a lot of attention.

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a useless Nachovote

scumbuddies

What did you accomplish with your Nacho vote? What use did it serve? This is not a defense.

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I could get behind a CTD lynch though. I think he's pretty clearly trying to stay out of the limelight by asking pseudo-scumhunting questions, that hardly can be used to actually lure out the scum.

Please give concrete examples of me asking pseudo-scumhunting questions. The accusation that I'm "clearly trying to stay out of the limelight" is patently ridiculous because I've clearly been very pro-active in trying to get wagons going and have been very vocal with my suspicions.

If this is going to be another one of these games where everyone I've attacked over the day starts to pile their votes on me as we approach deadline and the rest of the town goes along with it because they don't know fuck else to do, I'm going to rage.

[CrashTextDummie]

What did you accomplish with your Nacho vote? What use did it serve? This is not a defense.

I don't understand how that even looked like it was supposed to be a defense. I've noticed a couple of posts like this, and you either have really bad reading comprehension skills or you're trying to make it look like I'm doing something I'm clearly not doing.

It doesn't look like it's supposed to be a defense, that's the point. You

should

be defending yourself against accusations brought against you, instead you're mudslinging.

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Llama, question for you:

N does not seem like a terrible lynch either.

N is too potentially town to be a good lynch today.

What happened inbetween these posts to change your mind?

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I'm going to reiterate that the penguin wagon is bad and that the N wagon should pick up speed like, right now.

[CrashTextDummie]

Johhog, answer this instead of throwing more BS at me:

I could get behind a CTD lynch though. I think he's pretty clearly trying to stay out of the limelight by asking pseudo-scumhunting questions, that hardly can be used to actually lure out the scum.

Please give concrete examples of me asking pseudo-scumhunting questions. The accusation that I'm "clearly trying to stay out of the limelight" is patently ridiculous because I've clearly been very pro-active in trying to get wagons going and have been very vocal with my suspicions.

Also, you haven't said a single peep about N and Penguin-Alien (other than your random vote shenanigans), the two leading wagons, and I find that very problematic.

[CrashTextDummie]

So you can't give concrete examples of me asking pseudo-scumhunting questions. Making shit up confirmed.

And of course you could be persuaded to vote penguin-alien at deadline. Ignoring a wagon all day long and then going "oh well, deadline-lynch" is shady as fuck. Why do you have a town-read on N?

[CrashTextDummie]

And of course you could be persuaded to vote penguin-alien at deadline. Ignoring a wagon all day long and then going "oh well, deadline-lynch" is shady as fuck.

How is that "shady as fuck"?

Johhog seems to be uniquely disinterested in ascertaining penguin-alien's alignment. He's had the bit in the beginning where he "suspected her for lurking" and then there is no other mention of her in his ISO until I specifically asked him about her. Meanwhile, every other player in the game has interacted with her, given reads on her or otherwise acknowledged her wagon. She has literally been a person of interest to anyone but Johhog. That's issue number one.

Secondly, offering to vote at deadline is exactly the kind of stance a scumbag would want to take in this situation, as it absolves him of any kind of responsibility. Does Johhog think she's a good wagon? A scum-driven wagon? Does he lean scum or town on her? I would expect a pro-town person to give thoughts on this along with an offer to deadline lynch. That he is being deliberately opaque on the matter (his wording "[...] if it's needed" indicates that he would vote her for the sole purpose of avoiding no lynch and gives zero indication of his thoughts on the matter) serves a scum agenda exclusively.

Waiting for N to claim, yadda yadda.

[CrashTextDummie]

Penguin-alien's analysis post, while not as awesome-town as Nacho's, was at least 10 times more pro-town than anything N has done over the entire day combined. I see his entire conduct over the last couple of pages, including his refusal to claim, as entirely bereft of any pro town motivation or thinking. He's riding the "too scummy to be scum" angle to the finish line and for some incomprehensible reason, enough people are buying it that penguin-alien looks like today's lynch. Feh.

[CrashTextDummie]

I thought this was a really well played game all around, impressive play by the collective town and a thoroughly deserved win. Congrats!

I tip my hat to Llamarble for shooting me N1. Gutsy use of a one-shot. Guess he really strongly believed in that early-game tell, though I don't maintain that I'd make the post as town. :p

Empire, Tierce and Tammy should stop playing with each other, they're messing up game balance!

[CrashTextDummie]

EBWOP: I

do

maintain that I'd make the post as town.